Since in my game the party is now affiliated with a city mainly inhabited by races that are usually antagonists (the main portion is goblins and kobolds, then come other goblinoids, gnolls and orcs and the smallest portion is a mix of underdark races, lizardfolk, giants and various others, all under the rule of a venerable black dragon) they also have a quite different situation with what you get for pets and mounts. (horses and dogs are simply out of question in a city with so many goblins)
So I wanted to offer, dire wolves, boars (as well as their non-dire versions for small characters) and other animals exotic animals as mounts purchasable in the goblin city. The question though since they're more powerful they should also cost a bit more than horses so how do I best calculate a price for these animals?
I figured it would be best to tie it to CR, but thats all I could figure out so far.
Since in my game the party is now affiliated with a city mainly inhabited by races that are usually antagonists (the main portion is goblins and kobolds, then come other goblinoids, gnolls and orcs and the smallest portion is a mix of underdark races, lizardfolk, giants and various others, all under the rule of a venerable black dragon) they also have a quite different situation with what you get for pets and mounts. (horses and dogs are simply out of question in a city with so many goblins)
So I wanted to offer, dire wolves, boars (as well as their non-dire versions for small characters) and other animals exotic animals as mounts purchasable in the goblin city. The question though since they're more powerful they should also cost a bit more than horses so how do I best calculate a price for these animals?
I figured it would be best to tie it to CR, but thats all I could figure out so far.
3.5's Arms and Equipment guide had prices for all sorts of exotic mounts, both for the eggs/hatchlings/young and the trained adults, as well as the costs of training.
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I just broke this kind of thing down a few hours ago in another thread for a different issue. Here are a few examples of animals that can be purchased as mounts or monstrous companions at market.
You can sell each Owlbear hatchling at market for 3000g a piece. Meaning that to BUY one it would be double, 6000g
Pegesus young cost 3000 on the open market. (Eggs at 2000) 6000g for PC purchase
Griffon young cost 7000g each. (3500g an egg) Again double for 14,000g
There are a few other options available to you as well although there is no price listed for any of them, Worgs have been known to work with goblins and that lot, Dire wolves have been trained as such in the past as well. Others include Ankhegs, Dire Boars, Chimeras, and of course Goblin Dogs.
Edit- Fair prices IMO would be around 2000g per CR of creature
Double for Chimera due to flying capabilities
Goblin Dog- 2000g
Wolf- 2000g
Worg- 4000g
Dire Wolf- 6000g
Ankheg- 6000g
Dire Boar- 8000g
Chimera- 28,000g
Keep in mind many of the more dangerous ones would of course be harder to get to co-operate than others and some may not be appropriate at all. This all taken from the Bestiary.
Hope it helps!
I just broke this kind of thing down a few hours ago in another thread for a different issue. Here are a few examples of animals that can be purchased as mounts or monstrous companions at market.
You can sell each Owlbear hatchling at market for 3000g a piece. Meaning that to BUY one it would be double, 6000g
Pegesus young cost 3000 on the open market. (Eggs at 2000) 6000g for PC purchase
Griffon young cost 7000g each. (3500g an egg) Again double for 14,000g
There are a few other options available to you as well although there is no price listed for any of them, Worgs have been known to work with goblins and that lot, Dire wolves have been trained as such in the past as well. Others include Ankhegs, Dire Boars, Chimeras, and of course Goblin Dogs.
Edit- Fair prices IMO would be around 2000g per CR of creature
Double for Chimera due to flying capabilitiesGoblin Dog- 2000g
Wolf- 2000g
Worg- 4000g
Dire Wolf- 6000g
Ankheg- 6000g
Dire Boar- 8000g
Chimera- 28,000gKeep in mind many of the more dangerous ones would of course be harder to get to co-operate than others and some may not be appropriate at all. This all taken from the Bestiary.
Hope it helps!
Im not considering Worgs because those are sentient and won't have themselves sold like wares. But 2000 gp for a goblin dog seems way over the top compared to a combat trained heavy horse (CR 2), which is only 300 gp.
To clarifiy Im looking for prices based entirely on game blance and power, not on availability in the market, supply and demand and other economics. We're looking at a city here that doesn't train anything but goblin dogs, (dire) wolves, boars, maybe hyenas and such.|
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Im not considering Worgs because those are sentient and won't have themselves sold like wares. But 2000 gp for a goblin dog seems way over the top compared to a combat trained heavy horse (CR 2), which is only 300 gp.
To clarifiy Im looking for prices based entirely on game blance and power, not on availability in the market, supply and demand and other economics. We're looking at a city here that doesn't train anything but goblin dogs, (dire) wolves, boars, maybe hyenas and such.
Oh, ok. Well I will assume that you're in an evil likely goblinoid town then. Didn't figure on that. Well feel free to replace the goblin dog with the horse in terms for price on a 1-1 ratio. As far as the other mounts go... idk, most of them would only ever rarely be trained as combat mounts save for maybe the hyena. The rest of them would require more... work.
I suppose any of the CR 1 animals you could treat as a combat trained horse but going past that you are going to have to crank the price up.
Mr. Fishy would suggest pricing a creature similar to the closest priced animal based on CR/attacks/HD/Control.
A wolf is close to a riding dog in CR/attacks/HD and control
Control is the animal's tendence to follow orders and work in a group, horse and dog/wolf are social and work together.
A large predator that hunts alone is harder to control and train so a price hike is in order. The increased price could represent addition gear needed to ride the animal safely and extra training. [owlbers are a good example of a "mount" that would be hard to control/train]
OR you could set a flat rate for animal training [combat 50gp/ riding/service 25gp]. Then add a HD/size charge equal to training cost.
Example= War Wolf [Combat trained] 150gp= 50gp[combat]+ 100gp [2 HD]
Example= War Rat [combat trained] 100gp= 50[combat]+50 [1 HD]
Add a up charge for special movement and attack abilities [poison/web]equal to the training cost. The more powerful the mount the more it cost to train, plus if its too expensive [powerful] its unavailible.
Mr. Fishy would suggest pricing a creature similar to the closest priced animal based on CR/attacks/HD/Control.
A wolf is close to a riding dog in CR/attacks/HD and controlControl is the animal's tendence to follow orders and work in a group, horse and dog/wolf are social and work together.
A large predator that hunts alone is harder to control and train so a price hike is in order. The increased price could represent addition gear needed to ride the animal safely and extra training. [owlbers are a good example of a "mount" that would be hard to control/train]OR you could set a flat rate for animal training [combat 50gp/ riding/service 25gp]. Then add a HD/size charge equal to training cost.
Example= War Wolf [Combat trained] 150gp= 50gp[combat]+ 100gp [2 HD]
Example= War Rat [combat trained] 100gp= 50[combat]+50 [1 HD]
Add a up charge for special movement and attack abilities [poison/web]equal to the training cost. The more powerful the mount the more it cost to train, plus if its too expensive [powerful] its unavailible.
this sounds like a good approach. extras for special movement are very appropriate, since flying isnt something you should get just like that.
@themetricsystem
Yeah i guess a goblin dog would cost pretty much that. I might actually even introduce a "heavy" goblin dog varian (basically like a heavy horse, with advanced template and maybe an extra natural attack like claws)
Mr. Fishy hopes that this was helpful. Post later and let us know if you used it and if it worked, please. Mr. Fishy pulled that out of his ass and wants to see if it swims.
After giving it some thought and looking at the wealth by level for PCs i decided for a very simple approach.
I would simply double the price for a mount with each extra point of CR. Making the first few easily affordable for a character of the same level as the mount's CR and later you would have to be above the CR to actually afford a high GR mount.
For CR 1 creatures such as wolves and goblin dogs I decided to use the price of a regular riding dog, because although their CR is higher, they are actually pretty much the same, if not less in power level. Here's a rundown of the prices with examples:
CR 1: Wolf, hyena, goblin dog, riding dog | 150gp (same as Riding Dog)
CR 2: Heavy horse, boar, aurochs, cheetah, leopard | 200gp Combat: 300gp
CR 3: Dire wolf, dire hyena, lion, deinonychus | 400gp Combat: 600gp
CR 4: Dire boar, bison, rhinoceros, tiger, megaraptor | 800gp Combat: 1,200gp
CR 5: Spotted lion (dire), giant frilled lizard | 1,600gp Combat: 2,400gp
CR 6: Woolly rhino | 3,200gp Combat: 4,800gp
CR 7: Elephant, stegosaurus | 6,400gp Combat: 9,600gp
CR 8: Smilodon (dire tiger), triceratops | 12,800gp Combat: 19,200gp
CR 9: Mastodon, tyrannosaurus | 25,600gp Combat: 38,400gp
These are all regular animals, I didnt see anything flying that was both big enough and wouldn't have enough intelligence to have themselves sold like cattle except for the roc, which is CR 9, but i didnt really know how to calculate the price for a flying mount, considering that a pair of Wings of Flying, which does nothing but give you the ability to fly costs 54000gp already, and there we'd have to add some extra attacks a mount would give.
EDIT: Forgot the most important: DINOSAURS
That would also add pteranodon as a flyable CR 3 mount.
Nice scaled reference, I might use that very soon!
Might I add that since humans were (even somewhat still are) products that could be bought at some points, Worg (and other inteligent beasts) could be in the same spin in some significant settings. Ex.: Hippogrifs in Korvosa must have a pricing/market.
Yeah i guess you could enslave them, but im not sure if its a good idea to be on bad terms with a creature while sitting on its back 500 feet in the air.
Yeah i guess you could enslave them, but im not sure if its a good idea to be on bad terms with a creature while sitting on its back 500 feet in the air.
Ah, but slavery wasn't always dealt with as a bad term. Ex.: Many Roman slaves (for a few significant periods) were in a "better" place than in the original country and they would always have water and could even get better.
Sure, that orc-guy who killed your Worg-mom to pick you up is a bad one but she wasn't that smooth either.
But the first hobgoblin trainer who bought you GAVE food and showed you how to fight without ripping your skin off EVERY day.
Now that sharp Shiny-blade-wielding goblin rider thinks your worth the big pile of gold and will take you to even better food and blood biting. You just have to do what he says MOST of the time.
How does that sound?
Nice list ThreeShades! I grabbed that for my own purposes later...
I've been looking at making improved mounts (so far only advanced/higher HD horses), that are either given greater combat training, or are the "greater spirited" types.
I've also come up with a special quality (similar to how docile works), that you might find interesting: Wild.
The animal treats it's secondary attacks as primary attacks, and is willing to attack any creature with only one application of the "attack" training. The drawback being that it will not accept riders, even after being trained, unless the rider "breaks" the animal ("Push" check DC 25 Handle Animal, need only one time for the animal to accept you).
So a horse wouldn't have the -5 attack penalty on his hooves, they'd have the same attack roll as his bite. And he'd be willing to attack undead and aberrations with only the standard combat training.
Gives a nice little boost, but makes it so you can't just hand the mount over to someone else and have them ride it.
Yeah i guess you could enslave them, but im not sure if its a good idea to be on bad terms with a creature while sitting on its back 500 feet in the air.Ah, but slavery wasn't always dealt with as a bad term. Ex.: Many Roman slaves (for a few significant periods) were in a "better" place than in the original country and they would always have water and could even get better.
Sure, that orc-guy who killed your Worg-mom to pick you up is a bad one but she wasn't that smooth either.
But the first hobgoblin trainer who bought you GAVE food and showed you how to fight without ripping your skin off EVERY day.
Now that sharp Shiny-blade-wielding goblin rider thinks your worth the big pile of gold and will take you to even better food and blood biting. You just have to do what he says MOST of the time.How does that sound?
I would like to add that the Spartans had a group of slaves that they trusted to handle their gear and resupply them with weapons durring battles. They would run through the ranks replacing broken spears, and were armed well enough to defend themselves if needed. These slaves had the highest social standing below full blooded Spartans, and they rarely tried to escape.
I guess you could make it work, but I think in that case you should always pay the "Combat trained" cost because they are sentient and don't shy because their instincts take over that much. Also you can consider it a sort of fee because capturing sentient creatures is somewhat difficult.
I'm still at a loss about costs for flying mounts. Ive been looking through wondrous items again, and beside the wings of flying (with their 54,000gp cost) there is also the broom of flying which costs a mere 17,000 gp. Also to be considered is that a flying mount isn't always going to fit inside everywhere you could get with a flying wondrous item so you could call off some costs for that.
Knocking someone from a mount is also a very real possibility, while removing wings of flying might be all but impossible (short of pinning the guy, or possibly specific sundering attacks?).
The distinction between wings of flying and a broom of flying are likely due to that fact. One is flying under your own power, the other is flying by hanging on for dear life to a thing that is flying.
That second one is far more precarious than the first. Mounts fall closer to the latter.
Now, if a person invests in proper equipment (military saddle), and feats/defenses to prevent themselves from falling, that's great. It does mean they have to focus on it though, where the wings of flying are just 'BAM - Fly Speed'.
I'd try keeping the pricing closer to the broom in this case.
Knocking someone from a mount is also a very real possibility, while removing wings of flying might be all but impossible (short of pinning the guy, or possibly specific sundering attacks?).
The distinction between wings of flying and a broom of flying are likely due to that fact. One is flying under your own power, the other is flying by hanging on for dear life to a thing that is flying.
That second one is far more precarious than the first. Mounts fall closer to the latter.Now, if a person invests in proper equipment (military saddle), and feats/defenses to prevent themselves from falling, that's great. It does mean they have to focus on it though, where the wings of flying are just 'BAM - Fly Speed'.
I'd try keeping the pricing closer to the broom in this case.
That makes a lot of sense, i will keep them close to the broom then, now the question remaining is wether the cost for a flying mount should depend on the CR of the creature or if flying should simply be a flatrate.
The lowest CR for a flying creature mountable by a small or medium character I found was 2 (Dire bat) So I guess we can leave out CR 1 already.
Since flying is something usually available to characters around level 6 or 7, we start with a reasonable pricing for that level on the creatures that cost less than 1000gp untrained (all up to asnd including CR 4), I thought maybe 5,000, I know that this is very little compared to a broom of flying but then the broom can carry loads as if it had a strength of 23 which is more than even most of the higher CR flyers can do. For CR 5 to 7 wich have base prices over 1,000 but under 10,0000 we double the "flyer-fee" to 10,000gp and finally 8 and 9 which have base prices of over 10,000gp we double it to 20,000gp
So another rundown of creatures and costs:
CR 2: Dire bat | 5,200gp Combat: 5,300gp
CR 3: Giant eagle, pteranodon, pegasus | 5,400gp Combat: 5,600gp
CR 4: Griffon | 5,800gp Combat: 6,200gp
CR 5: Manticore | 11,600gp Combat: 12,400gp
CR 6: Wyvern | 13,200gp Combat: 14,800gp
CR 7: Chimera | 16,400gp Combat: 19,600gp
CR 8: Gynosphinx | 32,800gp Combat: 39,200gp
CR 9: Roc | 45,600gp Combat: 58,400gp
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And just for the heck of it a (more) complete list, including also sentient and other non-animal creatures.
Creatures marked with (sentient) are creatures with an Intelligence score higher than 2, they don't shy in combat and thus are always considered combat-trained, because either forcing or presuading such a creature into serving as a mount is more difficult than with nonsentient creatures, they always have the price of a combat-trained creature of their CR.
Mounts
CR 1: Wolf, hyena, goblin dog, riding dog | 150gp (same as Riding Dog)
CR 2: Heavy horse, boar, aurochs, cheetah, leopard, worg (sentient) | 200gp Combat: 300gp
CR 3: Dire wolf, dire hyena, lion, deinonychus, unicorn (sentient) | 400gp Combat: 600gp
CR 4: Dire boar, bison, rhinoceros, tiger, megaraptor | 800gp Combat: 1,200gp
CR 5: Spotted lion, giant frilled lizard, winterwolf (sentient) | 1,600gp Combat: 2,400gp
CR 6: Woolly rhino | 3,200gp Combat: 4,800gp
CR 7: Elephant, stegosaurus | 6,400gp Combat: 9,600gp
CR 8: Smilodon, triceratops | 12,800gp Combat: 19,200gp
CR 9: Mastodon, tyrannosaurus | 25,600gp Combat: 38,400gp
Flying mounts
CR 2: Dire bat | 5,200gp Combat: 5,300gp
CR 3: Giant eagle (sentient), pteranodon, pegasus (sentient) | 5,400gp Combat: 5,600gp
CR 4: Griffon (sentient) | 5,800gp Combat: 6,200gp
CR 5: Manticore (sentient) | 11,600gp Combat: 12,400gp
CR 6: Wyvern (sentient) | 13,200gp Combat: 14,800gp
CR 7: Chimera (sentient) | 16,400gp Combat: 19,600gp
CR 8: Gynosphinx (sentient) | 32,800gp Combat: 39,200gp
CR 9: Roc | 45,600gp Combat: 58,400gp