The caster creates an image of black smoke over the heads of enemies within the number of 10 ft. cubes allowed by caster level. If they fail the save, the enemies are blind until they leave the limits of the spell's area or examine the illusion for another save.
Would you allow this?
Similarly, would you allow the caster to create the illusion of a bank of fog similar to obscuring mist, to the same effects except against those that interact with it and make a save?
The caster creates an image of black smoke over the heads of enemies within the number of 10 ft. cubes allowed by caster level. If they fail the save, the enemies are blind until they leave the limits of the spell's area or examine the illusion for another save.
Would you allow this?
Similarly, would you allow the caster to create the illusion of a bank of fog similar to obscuring mist, to the same effects except against those that interact with it and make a save?
I would say that seeing it spring into being counts as "interaction" as they would then actively be attempting to look through it. They'd get the save immediately. Then if they fail then you can obscure vision (total concealment) but no it can't blind them (the condition) anymore than obscuring mist does. It's a concentration spell so other spells don't lose their usefulness either.
So basically could it mimic obscuring mist's effects then yes. But it remains a concentration spell so obscuring mist is still a better choice plus no save. Can it cause blindness? No.
That makes sense to me. Thanks. And yeah, total concealment rather than complete blindness does suit better. Making an illusion of black over the pupils of their eyes might be a bit of a stretch. ;)
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Silent Image is one of those spells where you never know if something is going to work when you cast it. That is both a plus and a minus.
From a Player's perspective, it's open-ended enough to allow for any myriad of effects. That flexibility provides a spell caster with A LOT of power (the entirety of my argument that flexibility=power will likely wait for another day), the spell is pretty much only limited by my imagination.
From a GM's perspective, Silent Image is one of the spells where I get to reward my players for thinking outside the box, and coming up with an original idea. If I have to sit down and seriously think about if a specific Silent Image would work, I'm generally of the mindset that it will. I want to reward my players for coming up with clever and unique ways to solve a given problem. That said, just because a clever use of Silent Image works the first time a player tries it doesn't mean that it will every time. For all the same reasons why I'm willing to give player's the benefit of the doubt on the first new use of a given effect, I'm less likely to let it work on the second or third, and likely to have it fail on the tenth.
Wouldn't that be incredibly frustrating to the player, coming up with an effect that works, only to see it suddenly not work the same next time they use it?
Now, personally, obscuring mist effects that you're inside are very likely to give an initial save because of the fact it's still a particulate cloud that doesn't have substance or leave any kind of condensation (hence a save to notice it). If you use it to surround just yourself, they're not physically interacting with it so there's no initial save unless they spend an action try to observe it more closely.
I've considered the idea of using silent image to create a purely visual effect that would interfere with sight; such as creating a blindingly bright light source on a target (concealment all around unless they avoid looking at the source, in which that lone source now has total concealment?)
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Wouldn't that be incredibly frustrating to the player, coming up with an effect that works, only to see it suddenly not work the same next time they use it?
My players know I reward creative thinking. Further, I wasn't saying that repeated uses of it wouldn't work, I was saying repeated questionable uses (like the smock cloud the OP mentions) are more likely to get approval when they are new and unique ideas. Essentially, I'm willing to let creativity trump game mechanics.
I've considered the idea of using silent image to create a purely visual effect that would interfere with sight; such as creating a blindingly bright light source on a target (concealment all around unless they avoid looking at the source, in which that lone source now has total concealment?)
The problem arises around what does 'interact with illusion' mean. The strong method of casting seems to be mostly for cover. You create something and until they rush up to see it isn't real, it is. So in game an illusionary tent only affect the space its on and until you run up and touch it, its there.
I think you'd have a problem with your brightness illusion. Because everyone has to react to it immediately I think they'd also get to try a saving throw immediately.
Its an interesting possibility though.
Sigurd
I think Fog Cloud is an interesting comparison. Its one level higher and usually smaller. I think minor image disappearing on a successful save is a huge drawback but many of the affects seem like they can be duplicated.
I never noticed that the limitation on movement is the area of effect not the range.
"You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."
That would seem to mean that once you've staked out the squares it effects it can't be moved outside of those squares.
Sigurd
I definitely understand having a kneejerk reaction like that. It's a good rule of thumb since you don't want to obsolete a spell like some spells already do. But when given proper inspection it clearly is not going to break the game and falls within the spirit and rules of the spell. Also I disagree no spell can or should be allowed to mimic a higher level spell in anyway. Clearly spells do this. Higher level spells often perform similar effects to lower level ones they just do it better. (USUALLY)
A level 1 illusion spell vs. a level 2 conjuration spell.
So first off one is lower level therefore most likely a lower DC to beat. If you are an illusionist with spell focus or conjuration is opposed to you this may be a benefit but probably doesn't matter. Slight advantage second level spell.
One will allow a Will Save. The other allows NO save. Huge advantage 2nd level spell.
Silent Image has a longer range and could affect a larger area. Usually never matters. Fog Cloud's range and area may be shorter but are still very nicely large. Minor advantage Silent Image.
Duration: Fog Cloud Instantaneous. Silent Image CONCENTRATION. Even if Silent Image beat Fog Cloud in every way this would be a good enough reason to use Fog Cloud over SI. Give up all your spellcasting (except quickened spells) to obscure vision in an area.... LOL!
Fog Cloud can be dispersed by wind. Rarely factors in. An illusion can be auto-defeated by any PROOF the illusion is false.
If you throw up a wall to try and gain cover and one person makes his save he'll step through the wall or fire through it and then so will everyone else. If you really want to be a mean DM I don't think the Will Save is even necessary to overcome an illusion. You can think a wall is real and still fire an arrow at it. Just to be sure. If it goes through... you know it's an illusion.
As a reminder figments (as SI creates) are clearly stated to NOT SUPPORT WEIGHT. Anyone or thing moving through it auto beats the illusion for anyone that sees it happen. OUCH. Not so for Fog Cloud. Major advantage Fog Cloud. Ok so now we have thoroughly examined the spells mechanics and found Fog Cloud is still the superior choice when you have it.
What about the RAW? Well SI clearly states it can create figments of objects, creatures, and forces. Now I am not 100% clear on what a "force" is but I think a roiling cloud of black smoke would count as would a raging fire for example. Even ignoring arguments on what a force is I think we can all agree a wall is an object and a wall blocks vision. Obviously SI should thus be able to create figments that until disbelieved affect vision.
I think Fog Cloud is an interesting comparison. Its one level higher and usually smaller. I think minor image disappearing on a successful save is a huge drawback but many of the affects seem like they can be duplicated.
I never noticed that the limitation on movement is the area of effect not the range.
"You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."
That would seem to mean that once you've staked out the squares it effects it can't be moved outside of those squares.
Sigurd
Indeed. Just like Fog Cloud.
The way SI works like that is so you can create a moving image. For example create a figment of a guard walking down a hallway for example so he appears to still be on patrol after you've actually incapacitated him. Yet another reason I believe a roiling cloud of smoke is allowable. (Movement is allowed)
I definitely understand having a kneejerk reaction like that. It's a good rule of thumb since you don't want to obsolete a spell like some spells already do. But when given proper inspection it clearly is not going to break the game and falls within the spirit and rules of the spell. Also I disagree no spell can or should be allowed to mimic a higher level spell in anyway. Clearly spells do this. Higher level spells often perform similar effects to lower level ones they just do it better. (USUALLY)
A level 1 illusion spell vs. a level 2 conjuration spell.
So first off one is lower level therefore most likely a lower DC to beat. If you are an illusionist with spell focus or conjuration is opposed to you this may be a benefit but probably doesn't matter. Slight advantage second level spell.One will allow a Will Save. The other allows NO save. Huge advantage 2nd level spell.
Silent Image has a longer range and could affect a larger area. Usually never matters. Fog Cloud's range and area may be shorter but are still very nicely large. Minor advantage Silent Image.
Duration: Fog Cloud Instantaneous. Silent Image CONCENTRATION. Even if Silent Image beat Fog Cloud in every way this would be a good enough reason to use Fog Cloud over SI. Give up all your spellcasting (except quickened spells) to obscure vision in an area.... LOL!
Fog Cloud can be dispersed by wind. Rarely factors in. An illusion can be auto-defeated by any PROOF the illusion is false.
If you throw up a wall to try and gain cover and one person makes his save he'll step through the wall or fire through it and then so will everyone else. If you really want to be a mean DM I don't think the Will Save is even necessary to overcome an illusion. You can think a wall is real and still fire an arrow at it. Just to be sure. If it goes through... you know it's an illusion.As a reminder figments (as SI creates) are clearly stated to NOT SUPPORT WEIGHT. Anyone or thing moving through it auto beats the illusion for anyone that sees it happen....
All that said, just comparing it to fog cloud isn't exactly fair :
1) it is lower level
2) it can do much more than creating clouds of fog depending on the situation.
3) it has longer range
on the other hand it :
4) does need concentration to maintain, fog cloud lasts 10 minutes / level
5) It is hard to fool creatures that know spellcraft if they see you casting an illusion spell.
6) it can be disbelieved when interacted with.
The last one is prone to DM judgement, personally if you use the illusion to make yourself fade from view while they are chasing, preparing to attack or studying you, I would allow a save.
If the fog cloud is cast before they actually see you they would not unless they are actually touching the effect or being attacked from within (or behind) the effect or otherwise significantly affected by it.
In my judgement it isn't nearly as good as fog cloud, but if you are more lenient with adjucating the spell, it quickly becomes powerful.
I just try to judge it fairly with an eye on balance as well, I want to prevent a trick working once and not work next time without in game reasoning.
All that said, just comparing it to fog cloud isn't exactly fair :
I was responding to Ogre who claimed that this let SI far exceed the abilities of a fog cloud. Not sure how it's not fair to directly compare two spells to prove one is superior to another.
Yes it can do a lot more than just mimic fog cloud. That doesn't make it overpowered unless it can do more AND mimic fog cloud at least as well as the actual spell. But clearly the real fog cloud is a LOT better.
Also the range is a non issue. Fog Cloud starts at 120 feet and I don't think I've ever needed or even wanted to cast it further than 50-60. SI starts at 440 but how often is that really going to be useful?
You left out the No Save of the real Fog Cloud. Major advantage.
but if you are more lenient with adjucating the spell, it quickly becomes powerful.
It's already a useful spell (not sure about POWERFUL per se). But do you really think a weak sauce version of fog cloud would make it over powered? To abuse SI you'd have to have the most lenient DM in history. And if that's the case I doubt SI abuse is their biggest concern. Their players are probably getting away with Pun Pun or something. :)
Making a bunch of fog clouds that block the vision of the enemy but not your allies isn't superior? Eh whatever. Yes, there is a will save but the effect is vastly more powerful.
Oh I see what you're talking about now. No one said you can create a bunch of fog clouds. If it sounded like I said that then I was not clear. Silent Image not Image-S. The spell clearly states visual FIGMENT. Singular. You can create one fog cloud not 3 or 4. You could create a fog wall though which is an advantage but that's SI's entire purpose. A fake image of possibly enormous size.
Those 10 foot cubes have to touch each other. The reason they get laid down in cubes isn't so you can create multiple figments within each cube. It's so you can make one big illusion and either alter it's shape (a curved wall for example) or move your figment through an area (Previous example of a guard walking down a hallway). That's why it says the figment cannot extend beyond them.
The caster creates an image of black smoke over the heads of enemies within the number of 10 ft. cubes allowed by caster level. If they fail the save, the enemies are blind until they leave the limits of the spell's area or examine the illusion for another save.
This is the effect we didn't allow. For one thing the people inside could just duck.
The grey area is mimicking obscuring mist. 1) Is it a "force" like SI says it can produce. 2) People probably can't tell smoke is false from touching it.
Similarly, would you allow the caster to create the illusion of a bank of fog similar to obscuring mist, to the same effects except against those that interact with it and make a save?
We were allowing something like obscuring mist/fog cloud. In which case I'd still say obscuring mist is a better choice most of the time and Fog Cloud always. No save. 1min a level so 10 rounds at level 1 that won't prevent your being able to cast. This use of SI would still affect any ally that failed their save.
By RAW it seems SI can do this.
Scent would defeat SI but not Mist and Fog Cloud. Let's remember the real use of Obscuring Mist. It's to provide yourself concealment while you buff and summon or because you're getting beaten hard from ranged. SI as a concentration spell is useless for the buffing/summoning angle but possibly better for the protection angle since you could also lay down a path to follow while you run away. Are we really going to get upset at a PC for running away a little better? That's not exactly overpowered.
You left out the No Save of the real Fog Cloud. Major advantage.
6) it can be disbelieved when interacted with.
I think this covered the save part.. saying one allows a save or the other not allowing a save is kinda the same thing.
I think you underestimate the power of illusions if you are too lenient and allow a save rarely. There should be a pretty clear limit to what a 1st lvl wizard can do, blinding whole squads against hordes of archers is easily too much.. even with a save it is still powerful. Try beat that with magic missile or burning hands.
I think you underestimate the power of illusions if you are too lenient and allow a save rarely. There should be a pretty clear limit to what a 1st lvl wizard can do, blinding whole squads against hordes of archers is easily too much.. even with a save it is still powerful. Try beat that with magic missile or burning hands.
1) No one has said you can BLIND anyone. That is what we explicitly agreed you could NOT do. You can give yourself concealment. You can't give yourself cover because figments are explicitly stated to provide none of the real effects other illusions can do. Arrows would fly through. And as soon as they did so your illusion automatically becomes a translucent outline to everyone that saw it.
RAW (except for stuff in parentheses):
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. (Even if they don't see it spring into being anyone intending to attack someone within is obviously studying it carefully would you not agree?)
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. (At some point people are going to get to make saving throws. Even if a DM is super lenient)
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real NEEDS NO saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. (The saving throw just gets easier and easier to beat. Better hope in that horde not a single person figures it out.)
This is not unreasonable for a 1st level wizard. Obscuring Mist is still better for it's specific purpose. Even in a best case scenario (everybody fails their throw/thinks it's real) this isn't going to let you auto-win anymore than obscuring mist or fog cloud. They'll simply do exactly what they would do against someone using OM/FC.
2) Hordes of archers. Well first off obscuring mist already gives you concealment vs. a horde of archers so obviously that's on par for 1st level. You can try to use it like Fog Cloud but carry a massive chance of failure. That seems fair.
3)If your DM has you facing off as a 1st level wizard against a HORDE of archers you've got bigger problems. ;-P
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You left out the No Save of the real Fog Cloud. Major advantage.6) it can be disbelieved when interacted with.
I think this covered the save part.. saying one allows a save or the other not allowing a save is kinda the same thing.
I think you underestimate the power of illusions if you are too lenient and allow a save rarely. There should be a pretty clear limit to what a 1st lvl wizard can do, blinding whole squads against hordes of archers is easily too much.. even with a save it is still powerful. Try beat that with magic missile or burning hands.
This is actually possible regardless. Put up a fake wall of stone between you and the archers. I would suggest they get a save as soon as they get attacked through the wall or see something get through the wall.
The more I think about this the more I'm thinking I might allow a cloud and just give everyone in it an immediate saving through since they are interacting with it. Clouds have eddies, a scent, a texture (moisture or smoke which affects the eyes), none of which SI simulates you are definitely interacting with it.