FACT
You...
You don't really know what facts are, do you?
I'd also like to point out that one of the greatest strengths of RPGs in general, and PF/D&D in particular, is that a new player doesn't need to know the rules to start playing. They just have to tell the DM what their character wants to do, and the DM tells them which dice to roll and if it succeeds or not. This shallow learning curve has helped me introduce a lot of new players to the game over the years.
Now, most of them have eventually read some of the books and learned the rules themselves, but a couple never have, including my wife, who considers reading rulebooks too much like work to be enjoyable. They enjoy the game just as much as anyone else, sometimes more so, as I think it easier to immerse yourself in the story if you aren't constantly thinking about the mechanics.
I'd also like to point out that one of the greatest strengths of RPGs in general, and PF/D&D in particular, is that a new player doesn't need to know the rules to start playing. They just have to tell the DM what their character wants to do, and the DM tells them which dice to roll and if it succeeds or not. This shallow learning curve has helped me introduce a lot of new players to the game over the years.
Now, most of them have eventually read some of the books and learned the rules themselves, but a couple never have, including my wife, who considers reading rulebooks too much like work to be enjoyable. They enjoy the game just as much as anyone else, sometimes more so, as I think it easier to immerse yourself in the story if you aren't constantly thinking about the mechanics.
Right, but the dm is still following some basic set of rules when telling the player what to role. Rules dont interfere with this behavior at all.
The biggest problem I have with rules references is when it interferes with the fluidity of gameplay, or roleplaying. I realize some people can't take a step without referencing a rule to cover it, but we all have our preferences. So trust is a big aspect of an enjoyable game, so as long as you are open to rules discussion after a session, with a couple deep discussions on the spot, if it revolves around a player death, or major plot point, then all is good. I realize there are special cases that can not be brushed off with DM fiat.
I actually have more problems with rules that bring in mundane details into the campaign, like creating magic items or potions, opening a shop, running an estate, managing NPCs, etc., but I know when the players prefer that level of detail, so most likely I would step aside to let someone else take control of the game.
I really appreciate people that put alot of attention into how their character acts, including background, but start to get heart burn when the letter of the rule is followed versus common sense. But once again that is a group decision, as long as it does not become a focal point for each game.
FACTYou...
You don't really know what facts are, do you?
In a meta-sense, does ANYONE really know any "facts"? All external data is interpreted through sensory organs and translated by our brains. Only by holding our observations to be true, and denying the unlikely but real probability that we are hard-wired to interpret things in a certain way, can we make any statement called "fact". Such is the pain of living a linear, non-omniscient life.
If you don't think my facts are facts, dispute them. Offer counter evidence. Ad hominem attacks are not arguments.
Ok so baring the pure skepticism route (and that way lies madness, do you always feel bellow you to make sure the chair you sit on is actually there and even then are you constently concerned that your sense of touch is being misled and you are actually sitting in the gullet of an invisible monster?), i do believe there is such a thing as facts.
Lets look at your facts:
"FACT: When a dispute in the rules arise, it is the job of the DM to adjudicate. He may delegate, or take a vote, or whatever, but the choice to do so was initially his. Unless you bully your DM to run for you (freaky story above)."
Pretty solid on this one, given this is pretty much stated in every dmg I agree, this is a fact. Except I would add the word fairly after adjudicate.
"FACT: When decisions are left to the players, things will more often than not go in their favor UNELSS the DM challenges them. Challenges being a core component of the game, the ability of the DM to challenge the players is directly related to his ability to overrule said players. Otherwise, there IS no challenge."
GWAH? Do your players often make choices that are against themselves? TO they regularly drop their weapons and face off with dragons with toothpicks? What are we talking about here? Is it rules desicions? You seem to have as poor opinion of players as you have a vaulted view of dms. Dont any of your dms play and vice versa? Is there some magical shift that happens when they move behind the dm screen that they are no longer the person they once were?
And um, huh? Only uncreative and non-thinking dms have their ability to challenge the players directly related to his ability to overule them. I assure you I can challenge players just fine sticking straight with raw, even if they pull out their munchkin best. I just have to pay attention to what the party can do and adapt my encounters to it. So yea, this isnt even just an opinion, its actually false.
"FACT: DMing vs playing is not an equal participation game. The DM is not a judge, nor a director, nor an observer. The DM is a supreme diety with control over every aspect of the game world other than the PC's actions. It is an NBA star playing pickup games with elementary students. And it's the star's job to make sure the others have fun. Sure, there are some that can't handle the game. They are usually the most vocal about leaving the game if anything doesn't go their way. What do we call elementary students like this?"
Ego much? Seriously again you show you have some kind of massive bias where dms are magical wonderful creatures of God's favor, and players are lieing cheating caniving evil creatures who just want to ruin fun, and roll dice. I dm, and i play, so do many in my group. Friday i will be running a game. Last week I played. Did i change, or will i change into this NBA star you mention? Some greater detail would be appreciated as I would love to be able to document this metamorphasis in myself for science.
Even Supreme dieties can follow rules, if self enforced. Using rules neither infringes on their control of the world nor, reduces their participation. particularly when they can decide on the rules. It just means their world is ordered and cohesive.
And I have news for you, I have seen people on both sides of the screen go elementary school when things didnt go their way. I have seen dms throw a hissy fit because their monsters were beaten in an unexpected way, and I have seen players get pissed because the dm handwaved the player character into a position the player didnt want him in.
So yea in generally i think at least 2 of 3 of your facts need some significant work.
FACTYou...
You don't really know what facts are, do you?
In a meta-sense, does ANYONE really know any "facts"? All external data is interpreted through sensory organs and translated by our brains. Only by holding our observations to be true, and denying the unlikely but real probability that we are hard-wired to interpret things in a certain way, can we make any statement called "fact". Such is the pain of living a linear, non-omniscient life.
If you don't think my facts are facts, dispute them. Offer counter evidence. Ad hominem attacks are not arguments.
FACT: You didn't make an argument.
FACT: You made a couple of opinions and listed fact in front of them, as I'm doing now
FACT: Seriously, this is pointless and meaningless
What this says about you as a person is a FACT.
I needed to delete a lot of extranious talk, so a slightly abridged version:
"FACT: When decisions are left to the players, things will more often than not go in their favor UNELSS the DM challenges them. Challenges being a core component of the game, the ability of the DM to challenge the players is directly related to his ability to overrule said players. Otherwise, there IS no challenge."
GWAH? Do your players often make choices that are against themselves? TO they regularly drop their weapons and face off with dragons with toothpicks? What are we talking about here? Is it rules desicions? Dont any of your dms play and vice versa? Is there some magical shift that happens when they move behind the dm screen that they are no longer the person they once were?
You are actually missing what I am saying here. It has nothing to do with decisions, or game mechanics, or anything like that. If the player says "I kick the gobblin with my nat 20 and it turns out he has a Ring of Wizardry, which I take", that is completly non-kosher. The DM says "NO" to that. Hyperbole yes, but players do tend to try to dictate the terms of the game to the DM. It's natural. The best DM's tend to say "Yes, but..." followed by the next adventure hook. This is a statement of how the game must be constructed, not a reflection on the RAW.
As to the DMs vs players, it is another *snicker* FACT that DM's know more about what's going on than the players do. That puts them in the position to adjusicate. Players attempting to do so are only making conjectures based on incomplete evidence. QUESTIONING the DM is not the same as ASSERTING the DM is, in fact, false.
"FACT: DMing vs playing is not an equal participation game. The DM is not a judge, nor a director, nor an observer. The DM is a supreme diety with control over every aspect of the game world other than the PC's actions. It is an NBA star playing pickup games with elementary students. And it's the star's job to...
I'm not sure if you are capable of understanding what I am saying, so I apologize in advance for continuing this.
FACT: Stating things like this is perceived as confrontational and annoying to about 80% - 90% of those who read it.
FACT: I don't just DM, I run a LARP, and if you have not played in a LARP it is hard to explain just how much worse dealing with rules can be there.
FACT: The last time, in the LARP, we had an issue with a few players being too powerful, we talked to the players, who voluntarily offered alternate rules that would be more balanced. Choosing to tone down what was obviously a rules loophole so that other people would have more fun.
FACT: The players involved in this were 3 of the worst rules lawyers I've ever met. I was both shocked and impressed at this.
FACT: The players were asked because they had better knowledge of the splat book then the storyteller in this case.
FACT: By counterexample, I have shown that your FACT is not absolute. This is called logic, and while it does not state that your opinion is untrue it does show that it is not an absolute or all encompassing fact.
FACT: I assume you are not trying to come across as closed minded, angry, or any of a dozen less flattering things that could be said. Just understand that when you say stuff like this, that is how many people perceive you, even when what you are saying is for the most part true.
If you want to discuss something, don't do the above. It doesn't come across as wanting to discuss, it comes across as a lecture.
|
I do believe that over-codification can lead to problems. As proof I present F.A.T.A.L. Even ignoring the horrible and sick treatment of women (and men, and any other object or concept mentioned) that "game" is completely unplayable. Why? Because it's an (admittedly vastly extreme) example of over-codification.
FACT: People need to write less and stop arguing about topics that were created mostly for fun and affect nothing of significance in either their real or gaming lives.
