| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I was reading the other thread, and I was about to make a comment on smite only benefiting martial types, but now I am not so sure.
Smite Evil (Su)
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.
So the level 12 paladin pops aura of justice, then the wizard smites the bad guy and casts magic missle, acid arrow, or lightning bolt.
Does the wizard get to add the smite damage to the spell damage roll?
How much damage is added to magic missle +12 or +12 per missle?
Same with acid arrow +12 damage or +12 damage per round?
Interesting question. Clearly one not covered by the wording of the rule. At a glance, it seems that Smite Evil can be applied through spell attacks.
As for me, (this is purely DM judgment call) I see that Smite Evil adds to attack and damage rolls. It also has a single specific target. I would expect that any attack eligible for Smite would need to meet these as minimum requirements and, to keep this from being overused, I would apply that expectation as a limit to what can be used with Smite Evil. So, Magic Missile is out (no attack roll), Lightning Bolt is out (no target, no attack roll), Ray of Enfeeblement is out (no damage roll), etc.
For what's left, like Acid Arrow for example, seems fair enough to allow. Or at least, seems like there is even less justification to disallow...
In any case, if you allow Smite Evil with spells, regardless of how much or little restriction, there is precedent for other external damage modifiers to apply them only once to spells that cause damage more than once, so the bonus damage would only apply to Acid Arrow on the first round, to Scorching Ray on the first ray, etc. For reference, see "Intense Spells", the first level bonus for the Evocation school ability of the wizard class:
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays.
Edited to clarify what is my judgment call and what is my extrapolation from the RAW.
The problem with that is the wording "All damage rolls against the target"
There is no restrictions on it. Anything that has a damage roll against the target gets the bonus.
There is nothing in the RAW requiring the damage to have an attack roll attached to it.
FYI, the evoker special ability does work with magic missle.
What about a spell like spiritual hammer?
What about passive damage spells like brambles?
The problem with that is the wording "All damage rolls against the target"
There is no restrictions on it. Anything that has a damage roll against the target gets the bonus.
There is nothing in the RAW requiring the damage to have an attack roll attached to it.
FYI, the evoker special ability does work with magic missle.
What about a spell like spiritual hammer?
What about passive damage spells like brambles?
Worse, what about ability damage, e.g. cloudkill?
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I'd have to go with the more open version as well. As per raw anyhow.
"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite."
The text seems to separate the attack and damage rolls.
Thus, I would say that any spell that used an attack roll against that target would get the bonus. Indeed, any type of attack roll against the target would gain the bonus to hit.
Any damage roll against the target would gain the bonus damage, as well. Fireballs, magic missiles *only once per spell, not per missile*, cones, and so on. But the extra damage is only against that target and doesn't boost damage against other creatures.
In my game, I would probably talk to the paladin *if I had one*, and house rule the effects to weapons and weapon-like spells (attack rolls and damage). Just because it does seem a little odd to have a fireball deal more damage against one of the five creatures in its area of effect.
Worse, what about ability damage, e.g. cloudkill?The problem with that is the wording "All damage rolls against the target"
There is no restrictions on it. Anything that has a damage roll against the target gets the bonus.
There is nothing in the RAW requiring the damage to have an attack roll attached to it.
FYI, the evoker special ability does work with magic missle.
What about a spell like spiritual hammer?
What about passive damage spells like brambles?
Yay, lets hear it for ray of enfeeblement doing 1d6 +25 strength damage, and you get the paladin's charisma bonus to hit.
I'd have to go with the more open version as well. As per raw anyhow.
"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite."
The text seems to separate the attack and damage rolls.
Thus, I would say that any spell that used an attack roll against that target would get the bonus. Indeed, any type of attack roll against the target would gain the bonus to hit.
Any damage roll against the target would gain the bonus damage, as well. Fireballs, magic missiles *only once per spell, not per missile*, cones, and so on. But the extra damage is only against that target and doesn't boost damage against other creatures.
In my game, I would probably talk to the paladin *if I had one*, and house rule the effects to weapons and weapon-like spells (attack rolls and damage). Just because it does seem a little odd to have a fireball deal more damage against one of the five creatures in its area of effect.
What about spells that fire multiple bolts, each with their own hit roll?
Yay, lets hear it for ray of enfeeblement doing 1d6 +25 strength damage, and you get the paladin's charisma bonus to hit.Worse, what about ability damage, e.g. cloudkill?The problem with that is the wording "All damage rolls against the target"
There is no restrictions on it. Anything that has a damage roll against the target gets the bonus.
There is nothing in the RAW requiring the damage to have an attack roll attached to it.
FYI, the evoker special ability does work with magic missle.
What about a spell like spiritual hammer?
What about passive damage spells like brambles?
Thankfully that's an ability penalty, not damage. Point stands though.
In my game, I would probably talk to the paladin *if I had one*, and house rule the effects to weapons and weapon-like spells (attack rolls and damage). Just because it does seem a little odd to have a fireball deal more damage against one of the five creatures in its area of effect.
How is it any different from hitting 5 creatures with a fireball, and one of those creatures is vulnerable to fire?
How is it any different from hitting 5 creatures with a fireball, and one of those creatures is vulnerable to fire?
In my game, I would probably talk to the paladin *if I had one*, and house rule the effects to weapons and weapon-like spells (attack rolls and damage). Just because it does seem a little odd to have a fireball deal more damage against one of the five creatures in its area of effect.
Well, in your example the one vulnerable creature takes extra damage from his own weakness. In the case of a smite, the one creature would take extra damage because the caster of the fireball had specifically singled that target out for extra damage - somehow making the fireball more fiery against one of the 5 enemies it engulfs.
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I'm generally in agreement with Blake here. If the attack, spell or not, includes both an attack roll and a damage roll, then I'm inclined to allow it to gain bonuses from Smite. This includes rays like Scorching Ray & Acid Arrow, and touches like Vamperic Touch and Shocking Grasp. The way I'd shorthand this is, if an attack can gain the benefits of Sneak Attack, it can gain the benefits of Smite Evil.
The caster hasn't weakened the target, the Paladin's deity (or the Paladin's Faith) has. The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.
One minute is a long time in combat.
The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.
Exept that fireballs go againt Elemental Resistance not Damage Reduction (DR).
Although I for one am for the fireball doing more damage from Smite. It has been infused with holy energy that damages only the most evil (just like an arrow would be). So the 4 demon worshipping human warrior bodyguards are undamaged but the Demon itself is seared by holy fire (assuming it is not fire immune).
As long as the bonus damage is only inflicted once per SPELL (regardless of how many times that spell makes attack rolls in it's completion) I don't see this being horribly broken.
A duel wielding or bow wielding Paladin could do far more bonus damage per round than a spell throwing one.
The caster hasn't weakened the target, the Paladin's deity (or the Paladin's Faith) has. The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.
One minute is a long time in combat.
I fear you are going to far. Smite Evil is powerful enough without adding extra power to it. It's your call to alter the rules as such for your game, but you should point out that this would clearly be a houserule.
DR is not the same thing as Energy Resistance/Immunity. The paladin Smite Evil only bypasses DR, not ER/EI.
Suddenly a multi-classed paladin/sorc doesn't seem so bad.
We really need a ruling on this. Paizo?
The caster hasn't weakened the target, the Paladin's deity (or the Paladin's Faith) has. The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.
One minute is a long time in combat.
I fear you are going to far. Smite Evil is powerful enough without adding extra power to it. It's your call to alter the rules as such for your game, but you should point out that this would clearly be a houserule.
DR is not the same thing as Energy Resistance/Immunity. The paladin Smite Evil only bypasses DR, not ER/EI.
Well that is not fair, you all were pretty much houseruling the RAW, not that I disagree.. just thought I'd point that out.
so basically we get a sorcerer who gets a huge bonus to hit with a quickened scorching ray for 3 attacks at level 13 and probably a telekinesis to toss 13 missiles after.
The caster hasn't weakened the target, the Paladin's deity (or the Paladin's Faith) has. The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.
One minute is a long time in combat.
I fear you are going to far. Smite Evil is powerful enough without adding extra power to it. It's your call to alter the rules as such for your game, but you should point out that this would clearly be a houserule.
DR is not the same thing as Energy Resistance/Immunity. The paladin Smite Evil only bypasses DR, not ER/EI.
Agreed, DR is not the same as energy resistance, thus by the RAW, smite would not allow you to bypass elemental resists/immunities.
Absolutely. I was rolling them together for a moment.
I'm not trying to expand smite, just see how far the bonuses go.
1 Minute is still a long time.
The target would loose his DR against any smite attack so Holy Fireballs would burn demons that might be otherwise immune.Exept that fireballs go againt Elemental Resistance not Damage Reduction (DR).
Although I for one am for the fireball doing more damage from Smite. It has been infused with holy energy that damages only the most evil (just like an arrow would be). So the 4 demon worshipping human warrior bodyguards are undamaged but the Demon itself is seared by holy fire (assuming it is not fire immune).
As long as the bonus damage is only inflicted once per SPELL (regardless of how many times that spell makes attack rolls in it's completion) I don't see this being horribly broken.
A duel wielding or bow wielding Paladin could do far more bonus damage per round than a spell throwing one.
The problem is the once per spell is not in the RAW. According to smite, you get the bonus when you roll damage. The problem with the damage being "per damage roll" is that this concept is pretty vague when it comes to spells.
Fireball is a no brainer, you roll damage all at once, so the bonus only applies once.
Scorching Ray - You can roll damage after you roll for each hit, so you can make a strong argument that you get a damage roll per attack roll, and thus the damage bonus applies on every successful attack roll. If a paladin gets the bonus on every successful archery shot, why would a sorcerer not get the bonus for every successful scortching ray hit?
Magic Missle - This spell is in limbo, players generally roll the damage all at once, but you can make an argument that each missle counts as a separate damage roll.
Spiritual hammer/Mage's Sword - Each instance of these spell should get the bonus. If I have 3 spiritual hammers beating on the BBEG, each hammer gets the bonuses.
So worst case, you have a level 14 sorcerer, he smites the bad guy and casts mage's sword, the next round he pops a quickened magic missle + a normal scorching ray. The paladin is level 14 with a charisma of 20. The sword will be around a +30 to hit and hits for 4d6 + 17 damage. 5 magic missles for 1d4+15 each. 3 scorching rays get around a +14 to hit and hit for 4d6 + 12 each. The average damage is 202.5 if everything hits. Most every attack will hit on a 2+. The only thing to slow the sorcerer would be spell resistance.
So worst case, you have a level 14 sorcerer, he smites the bad guy and casts mage's sword, the next round he pops a quickened magic missle + a normal scorching ray. The paladin is level 14 with a charisma of 20. The sword will be around a +30 to hit and hits for 4d6 + 17 damage. 5 magic missles for 1d4+15 each. 3 scorching rays get around a +14 to hit and hit for 4d6 + 12 each. The average damage is 202.5 if everything hits. Most every attack will hit on a 2+. The only thing to slow the sorcerer would be spell resistance.
There are a couple big IFs in there.
IF we even allow this to work with spells, which is a DM Judgment Call to begin with, and IF we allow it to work with each damage roll, then suddenly this gets fairly overpowered.
As for adding bonus damage to every missile or ray, the precedent is already set according to the Evocation school of the Wizard class. They are the masters of evocation and they can only apply their bonus damage once to each spell. There is no RAW justification to allow Smite Evil to work any differently. True, there is no RAW that says it must work like evocation specialty, but at least, in this case, there is already a precedent in the RAW that suggests a good way to handle bonus damage on multiple spell effects.
At least for me, when making judgment calls, I prefer to use established precedent rather than just winging it - at least when I don't find a really good reason not to.
IF we even allow this to work with spells, which is a DM Judgment Call to begin with, and IF we allow it to work with each damage roll, then suddenly this gets fairly overpowered.
You got a quote from the RAW that says smite doesn't work with spells?
Smite works with damage rolls. Spells have damage rolls. Thus smite works with spells. That is pure RAW.
If you choose to not let smite work with spells, then you are making a house rule. We are discussing RAW not house rules.
As for adding bonus damage to every missile or ray, the precedent is already set according to the Evocation school of the Wizard class. They are the masters of evocation and they can only apply their bonus damage once to each spell. There is no RAW justification to allow Smite Evil to work any differently. True, there is no RAW that says it must work like evocation specialty, but at least, in this case, there is already a precedent in the RAW that suggests a good way to handle bonus damage on multiple spell effects.
Yes, lets look at that precedent.
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever you cast an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
The evoker rules specifically state that the bonus only applies once per spell. That denotes a specific exception. The smite rules have no such exception listed. Since smite does not have per spell damage limit listed which means there isn't one. If you want to add one, great, but that would be a house rule.
At least for me, when making judgment calls, I prefer to use established precedent rather than just winging it - at least when I don't find a really good reason not to.
Judgement calls are fine. I would probably make some of the same calls, but that doesn't change the fact that those judgement calls are essentially making up house rules on the spot. I am trying to figure out what the RAW states so I can comes up with rules that don't massively contradict the RAW.
I will say again.. this can get pretty nuts with "telekinesis" a level 15 sorcerer gets 15 attacks with that, effectively adding charisma bonus twice = 15 attacks for 1d4+15 damage each each one ignoring any kind of DR. sweet.. we might enchant them with greater magic weapon too for the occasion :p
I will say again.. this can get pretty nuts with "telekinesis" a level 15 sorcerer gets 15 attacks with that, effectively adding charisma bonus twice = 15 attacks for 1d4+15 damage each each one ignoring any kind of DR. sweet.. we might enchant them with greater magic weapon too for the occasion :p
To get that damage you would have to have 15 twenty-five pound hard-dense objects within 10 feet of the target. That seems to be stretching it a bit.
In that perfect situation, you would get 15 attack rolls at 7(wizard BAB) + 7(28 int) + 6(22 cha for pally) = +20. Most CR 15 monsters have an AC in the 30s.
I will say again.. this can get pretty nuts with "telekinesis" a level 15 sorcerer gets 15 attacks with that, effectively adding charisma bonus twice = 15 attacks for 1d4+15 damage each each one ignoring any kind of DR. sweet.. we might enchant them with greater magic weapon too for the occasion :pTo get that damage you would have to have 15 twenty-five pound hard-dense objects within 10 feet of the target. That seems to be stretching it a bit.
"You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object
thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attackbonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier
(if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength
bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their
size when used in this manner)"
nah, I just take a quiver of arrows..
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Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel here?
- Sneak Attack deals extra damage, if it were to be done with a spell, would only be added once.
- A Ranger that uses Vital Strike or Many Shot to attack their favored enemy, only adds the damage once.
- An Evoker only adds their bonus damage to the first damaging effect/missile of a spell.
Sure, in some cases the text lives in the feat, sometimes in the class, but does it really matter? The precedent is clearly that extra damage like this doesn't get added to multiple aspects of the same attack.
Granted, we are all talking about house rulings, since the RAW is ambiguous at best in these circumstances. NEITHER of us are discussing RAW at this point, as the RAW for this situation doesn't exist. Instead, we are both reading what is essentially flavor text, and arbitrating as best we can to make the crunch fit that fluff.
I will say again.. this can get pretty nuts with "telekinesis" a level 15 sorcerer gets 15 attacks with that, effectively adding charisma bonus twice = 15 attacks for 1d4+15 damage each each one ignoring any kind of DR. sweet.. we might enchant them with greater magic weapon too for the occasion :pTo get that damage you would have to have 15 twenty-five pound hard-dense objects within 10 feet of the target. That seems to be stretching it a bit."You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object
thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack
bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier
(if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength
bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their
size when used in this manner)"nah, I just take a quiver of arrows..
It is still a standard attack. In that perfect situation, you would get 15 attack rolls at 7(wizard BAB) + 7(28 int) + 6(22 cha for pally) = +20. Most CR 15 monsters have an AC in the 30s, so over half of the arrows will miss.
Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel here?
- Sneak Attack deals extra damage, if it were to be done with a spell, would only be added once.
Do you have an link? I think the way that is written it only applied to precision damage
A Ranger that uses Vital Strike or Many Shot to attack their favored enemy, only adds the damage once.
Due to the specifics of how those to feats work. If a ranger/wizard casts scorching ray, do they only get the bonus to hit on one ray? What about the damage bonus? Links?
An Evoker only adds their bonus damage to the first damaging effect/missile of a spell.
Because of the specifics of the evoker ability.
Sure, in some cases the text lives in the feat, sometimes in the class, but does it really matter? The precedent is clearly that extra damage like this doesn't get added to multiple aspects of the same attack.
I am not saying that it shouldn't be that way. I am stating that that way isn't in the RAW.
Granted, we are all talking about house rulings, since the RAW is ambiguous at best in these circumstances. NEITHER of us are discussing RAW at this point, as the RAW for this situation doesn't exist. Instead, we are both reading what is essentially flavor text, and arbitrating as best we can to make the crunch fit that fluff.
No, I am not. By the letter of the RAW, you get smite damage on every damage roll. If I fire 3 scorching rays at a target with fire resist 10, each ray must roll to overcome the resistance, thus each ray is a separate damage roll. Thus each ray gets the damage bonus by the RAW.
Judgement calls are fine. I would probably make some of the same calls, but that doesn't change the fact that those judgement calls are essentially making up house rules on the spot. I am trying to figure out what the RAW states so I can comes up with rules that don't massively contradict the RAW.
I said back in the second post on this thread that the RAW supports smiting with spells and that there is no further RAW to tell us how to handle it.
What exactly is it that you want here? Are you the paladin looking for an "I win" button to "beat" your DM? Or are you a DM or player who wants a fair and balanced game system?
Smite Evil ordinarily gives a paladin a chance to do extra damage, if he hits. At higher levels, he can do extra damage several times a round if he can hit with multiple attacks (though generally each extra attack is harder to hit because of iterative initiative). In the end, he might hit once or twice, more if he's both high level and fairly lucky, or less if he's unlucky. Thus he'll (usually) do extra damage once or twice a round (allowing for some misses, some rounds when the paladin must move, etc.)
At 11th level he gains the ability to give this to all his buddies. Now they can smite with any of their attacks too, including spells.
This isn't too big a deal when the paladin's buddies use ordinary weapons. Those have the same inherent drawback's as the paladin's own attacks: they need to roll to hit and they probably only get extra damage once or twice per round.
Spells are where this Smite Evil ability gets broken really quickly. Sure, by raw, any spell that rolls damage gets the bonus. Most damaging spells don't even require an attack roll, and often even when the enemy saves they still deal damage, which means that unless we're smiting an evil rogue, most spellcasters are guaranteed to get bonus damage - the enemy has no chance of avoiding it. Even that isn't too bad, since most spellcasters only do damage once per round, usually.
Where it really breaks down is spells that do multiple attacks (or specifically, multiple damage rolls). Especially when such spells have no attack rolls (like Magic Missile) or go against Touch AC (like all ray spells). These spells are guaranteed to hit, or very nearly so, and a wizard using the right spells will easily dish out far more damage than the paladin could typically do in the same round.
And twice as much if he has quickened spells.
The nova potential is amazing, and quite possibly game breaking.
However, it appears the game designers already anticipated this kind of damage escalation. They created one ability that adds bonus damage to any damage spell: the Evocation specialty school power.
No, they didn't put the rules to handle such bonus damage into their own section in the Magic or Combat chapter. There are no common/easy means to get this kind of across-the-board bonus damage, so a section to handle it is mostly unnecessary, and even if they thought of it, they would have likely not bothered to waste space on something that they thought would never come up.
But now it has come up.
You argue that this Evocation ability is a specific exception. You're right, but wrong on what it is excepting.
It is not an exception to some general rule that allows you to apply bonus damage to every damage die. There is no general rule for that. No, it's an exception to the fact that you don't have bonus damage to begin with. And as an exception to that, it teaches us how to handle bonus damage on these types of spells.
Your argument is valid. The rule in the Evoker class ability only applies to that ability.
But that still leaves us with an overpowered and game-breaking Smite Evil to deal with, and no general rule anywhere in the RAW that answers the question on how to handle external bonus damage on multi-damage spells.
So we're left with a choice.
1. Judgment Call that each damage roll gets the bonus. This is dangerous for reasons already supplied in this thread: it can get ridiculous amounts of damage in the right hands with the right spells. This amounts to saying "Well, gosh, there isn't a rule for this, so go ahead and see how badly we can break the system."
2. Judgment Call to apply the Evoker rule that the authors already supplied that already handles an extremely similar case. The benefit of this is that it brings the Smite Evil back down to manageable levels, and it uses a rule already in the Core Rules with an established precedent for handling bonus damage on multi-damage spells. This amoutns to saying "Well, gosh, there really isn't a rule here, but instead of breaking the system, let's import this extremly similar rule from the Evoker and keep the system in balance."
Me, I prefer #2. YMMV.
Neither chioce is RAW, since there is no RAW that explicitly tells us how to apply Smite Evil through Aura of Judgment to spells with multiple damage rolls. It's just not in there.
So when you try to "figure out what the RAW states so I can comes up with rules that don't massively contradict the RAW", your problem is already solved: You already know what the RAW states (nothing) and you cannot massivly contradict (nothing), so you can do whatever you want.
Which means we've gone full circle back to making Judgment Calls and trying to balance the system.
Or not.
I said back in the second post on this thread that the RAW supports smiting with spells and that there is no further RAW to tell us how to handle it.
What exactly is it that you want here? Are you the paladin looking for an "I win" button to "beat" your DM? Or are you a DM or player who wants a fair and balanced game system?
Both.
Spells are where this Smite Evil ability gets broken really quickly. Sure, by raw, any spell that rolls damage gets the bonus. Most damaging spells don't even require an attack roll, and often even when the enemy saves they still deal damage, which means that unless we're smiting an evil rogue, most spellcasters are guaranteed to get bonus damage - the enemy has no chance of avoiding it. Even that isn't too bad, since most spellcasters only do damage once per round, usually.
Lets run with that.
So far the largest number of attack rolls comes from throwing 15 arrows on the ground and pop a level 15 telekinesis.Given a level 15 paladin with a 22 charisma.
Target is an ancient green dragon AC:36 Touch:5 SR:28
A level 15 sorcerer with a 28 charisma. 15 attack rolls at +7(BAB) +8(sorc cha) + 6(pally cha) = +21 to hit for 1d6 + 15 damage each with no SR roll. 30% of the arrows hit for an average damage of 83.25 damage. With crits, the damage comes to 87.41.
The sorcerer has greater spell pen and pops a quickened magic missle + regular magic missle. The sorc gets 15(level) + 2(feats) = 17 to overcome the dragons 28 SR. 50% of the spells will overcome SR for an average damage of 187.5. Magic missle cannot crit.
The sorcerer casts quickened scorching ray + scorching ray. The hit roll is 7(BAB) +8(sorc cha) +6(pally cha) = +18 vs a touch AC of 5. The damage is 4d6+15 per bolt. The sorc still needs an 11 to overcome SR. Average damage is 82.65. Give the sorc Improved Critical(Ray) and the damage with crits comes up to 90.915.
A dual kukri fighter with 20 dex, and 26 strength. To hit with power attack is +15(BAB) +8(str) +2(weap focus and GWF) +3(weapon training) + 6(pally charisma) +4(weapon enhancement) -2(dual wield) = +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26 to hit. Average damage is 1d4 +8(str) +4(WS and GWS) +3(weap training) +4(enhancement) +15(smite) = 36.5 damage. Average DPR is 167.9. Add in crits and average DPR is 218.27.
If the fighter uses power attack. -5 to hit for +10/5 to damage. The average DPR is 188.76.
A archery fighter with 26 dex and 20 strength. To hit is same as dual wield fighter. +36(x2)/+36/+31/+26 to hit. Damage is 1d8 + 5(strength) +4(SW/GWS) +3(Weap train) +4(enhancement) +15(smite) = 35.5 damage. Average DPR is 178.92.
If the fighter uses deadly aim for a -5/+10. Average DPR is 177.45.
Note: in all cases, the first attack/spell to land would deal double damage to a dragon, that is not factored into these calculations.
Note2: Neither fighter has a haste effect.
Based on this, I don't agree with your assertion that letting smite work with spells is obviously broken. In most cases, the fighter can push out twice the damage of the sorcerer every round without using up any per day limited abilities. If the sorc is using magic missle + quickened magic missle(and parying the target doesn't have a shield spell active), then they a merely doing the same damage as the archer fighter, and less that the dual wield fighter.
Edit: added in crits
Edit2: ran the fighter numbers with power attack
Edit3: threw in a rapid shot fighter archer.
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Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel here?
- Sneak Attack deals extra damage, if it were to be done with a spell, would only be added once.
- A Ranger that uses Vital Strike or Many Shot to attack their favored enemy, only adds the damage once.
- An Evoker only adds their bonus damage to the first damaging effect/missile of a spell.
Sure, in some cases the text lives in the feat, sometimes in the class, but does it really matter? The precedent is clearly that extra damage like this doesn't get added to multiple aspects of the same attack.
Granted, we are all talking about house rulings, since the RAW is ambiguous at best in these circumstances. NEITHER of us are discussing RAW at this point, as the RAW for this situation doesn't exist. Instead, we are both reading what is essentially flavor text, and arbitrating as best we can to make the crunch fit that fluff.
Lets look at Manyshot since it is closer to spells with multiple attacks (aka Magic Missile, Scorching Ray) then vital strike:
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
So, from that, precision-based damage bonuses only apply once (one arrow) but Rangers favored enemy bonus, and other damage bonuses apply to each arrow. I do not think that Smite is a precision-based damage bonus, so it must apply to Manyshot.
So, now the question comes to this, if a paladin standing in a group of archers can make some BBG's day really bad, why would it also not work with the same paladin standing in a group of casters?
So, recap...
RAW:
Aura of Justice/Smite Evil works with spells that have damage rolls.
What exactly constitutes a damage roll is somewhat vague in the RAW.
For melee and archer classes, smite damage applies to every attack. This gives us precedent to apply the bonus damage once per successful attack roll the spell makes.
The evoker class ability gives us precedent to apply the bonus damage once per spell.
The manyshot ability gives us precedent to apply the damage to each bolt of the spell.
Balance:
Using the best case scenario for the spellcaster, except for magic missle, most combinations of spells + smite yield lower damage than an archer fighter + smite.
There is probably a sweet spot around level 8-12 where caster will be very strong. This is because they are getting multiple spells via quickened spell with multiple shots, and most monsters do not have spell resistance yet.
Personal Judgement calls:
Smite Evil bonuses only apply to hp damage rolls. Ability damage rolls are not effected.
The damage bonus is per attack roll. If the spell has no attack rolls, then the damage is applied once per spell.
In most cases, the +to hit doesn't help caster, so I am also thinking about adding a bonus of letting the caster add the paladin's charisma bonus to spell penetration rolls when they smite as an extra house rule.