Guys, he's the crescendo of the campaign - he's supposed to be awesome and deadly! ;pYeah except when the DM has to go outside of the rules to have him do things then its no longer awesome. It's kinda cheap and anticlimactic for me.
So you have told your DM he is forbidden from creating his own templates/monsters/enchantments/spells etc. Because it's no different mechanically.
And if this ability was written down somewhere as a feat or spell-like ability in a bestiary or something then magically it's ok?
I get where some people are coming from. If you want to play DnD and focus on the wargame aspect and engage in tactical combat then it's important the DM (now just an opposing player really) follow the rules. But I think by default the goal as I understood it from reading the Pathfinder Core Book is collaborative storytelling and storytelling is all about the author making up whatever the hell he wants.
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So you have told your DM he is forbidden from creating his own templates/monsters/enchantments/spells etc. Because it's no different mechanically.
And if this ability was written down somewhere as a feat or spell-like ability in a bestiary or something then magically it's ok?
...I think by default the goal as I understood it from reading the Pathfinder Core Book is collaborative storytelling and storytelling is all about the author making up whatever the hell he wants.
+1
The official rules have always allowed for creatures to be tinkered with.Back when Weapon Finesse had a BAB prereq, all the tiny animals had to be given it as a bonus feat.
The current Fly skill has to tack on a size bonus, to get round the fact that big, clumsy, high-HD creatures are the only ones with any skill points worth mentioning (so would be able to turn on a sixpence), and small, agile, creatures rarely get any (so would be flying like a brick).
It's so weird to read how DM's need to "stay in the rules" when right nextdoor we have a thread lamenting the codification of rules.
By-passable DR for one. At least dump the DR/magic formula, should be DR/Magic +2,+3, etc.
DR/+X is mostly gone.
Getting only one stat boost per 4hd/level is another
True dragons gain considerable ability boosts at each new age category. Since each age category means 2 extra HD, this means they get a whole lot more than humans.
Sometimes, it's as little as +2 str (like the jump from old to very old), which is still +2 for a 2 HD boost, which is way better than +1 for a 4 HD boost. Other categories add much more (like from mature adult to old, which means -2 dex but +2 everrything else)
fixed racial HP bonus
I'm not a friend of these. Besides, increasing HP might mean that the CR needs to be adjusted.
Not that those buggers are on the weak side: For example, the sample adult black dragon (CR11) has the HP worthy of a CR12 critter, AC that fits CR 13, attacks that are a bit better than normal, an average damage that is close to what CR 15 is supposed to deal, appropriate saves (plus nice immunities/resistances), and A breath weapon DC that's appropriate for a CR 14 critter with strong special attacks.
Yes, none of its statistics are below the guidelines, most are a good deal better. And it's a strong physical attacker that also has strong secondary abilities.
The poor little lizards don't seem in a lot of need for some extra lovin'
I would even trade all that in for some exceptional rules specific to the creature - abilities that may even break or supersede other rules.
They get special abilities (beyond the fact that they're a tough customer for their CR). I think their new racial packages are quite nice.
Why break the rules?
And that is all great - I just don't think a gigantic ancient race of energy breathing lizards should advance the same as a human
Last time I checked, humans don't get huge bonuses to their ability scores and other special abilities when they age. In fact, dragons are the only critters with the unique age category thing.
take the same kind of damage or even be subject to the same rules as a human - even a heroic human.
What other kinds of damage are there they could take?
And they're subject to the same rules because these are the rules the (game) world runs on.
Dragons do get nice special abilities, and their very own career path...
Immunity to small arms fire
That's arbitrary and not really usable. It would screw archer heroes (and go against many of the stories surrounding dragons).
But powerful defensive abilities (strong even for their CR) mean that your normal army soldier will have a very hard time hurting or even hitting that dragon - they need to roll exceptionally high to even hit them, and even then their non-magical arrows will have a very hard time of bypassing the damage reduction.
Straight-up immunity to certain things was taken out of the game because it just didn't work.
At X age immune to x level spells
Doesn't work, either. There were abilities like that in the game (during 3e times), but they were abolished because they just didn't work.
Still, excellent saves combined with resistances and spell resistance means that less experienced spellcasters will have a hard time even hurting the dragons.
To me they should be the toughest encounters at their CR and they seem to fall flat.
I don't know - I just did a quick comparison between that CR 11 black dragon and other CR 11 critters. If the dragon falls flat, everything else is trampled into the ground...
About things that are not in the rules... What about the Legion Devil for example?
That's a specific creature, not a game modification done to everything that happens to be encountered without backup.
There are worlds between granting a godlike entity godlike abilities because it's godlike and granting a mundane creature near-godlike abilities because it's a loner.1) You FEEL that way but logically there is no difference in game mechanics. Call it a god and suddenly it can get away with anything.
Note: Not every critter you encounter alone is a god.
Laughable.
Can you do anything else, or are insults your sole ability?
2) Why are we assuming the BBEG of the OP was meant to be somebody mundane?
The rules someone proposed above were not for BBEGs, they were for *everything* that was encountered alone.
If the mechanics are making that impossible
But they don't.
3) I shudder to imagine your reaction when I tell you I don't give XP for combat. I don't btw.
Apples and oranges. Apples, in this regard, are your petty insults, while oranges are the fact that we are talking about the rules as written.
Actually I don't see it as wargaming/tactical combat.
Rather I see it as the DM presenting a world where they (and/or the rules) lay out a set of 'laws of the land'. In the case in question we have 'I'd like to make this fight tougher so I'm going to ignore normal rules' which I find as poor form. YMMV.
Agreed. In fact, doing stuff like "it's solo so it becomes stronger depending on number of enemies it faces" is more fit for a board game than a roleplaying game. It's a gameist rule.
Agreed. In fact, doing stuff like "it's solo so it becomes stronger depending on number of enemies it faces" is more fit for a board game than a roleplaying game. It's a gameist rule.
Actually I don't see it as wargaming/tactical combat.
Rather I see it as the DM presenting a world where they (and/or the rules) lay out a set of 'laws of the land'. In the case in question we have 'I'd like to make this fight tougher so I'm going to ignore normal rules' which I find as poor form. YMMV.
Can we please stop hurling around "gameist" or "boardgame" because for christ's sake it's neither.
Some people want to give solo encounters more oomph so they let the creature or BBEG or whatever move twice per initiative turn. That's it. They aren't throwing down a board and miniatures, they aren't pooping in player's faces and demanding they stop roleplaying. Jeez.
Note: Not every critter you encounter alone is a god.
I never suggested making every solo creature a god. This is called a strawman argument. Perhaps others have. I did not read every post in the thread but I never said it so if you want to respond to me let's talk about what I actually said ok?
Can you do anything else, or are insults your sole ability?
Pointing out a fallacy is not insulting. Nor is calling a fallacy laughable meant to be a personal attack at the person making the mistake.
The rules someone proposed above were not for BBEGs, they were for *everything* that was encountered alone.
Again you talk about other people while seemingly talking to me. (Since you are quoting me.)
But they don't.
The OP was finding it impossible and the only advice I saw you give was to make him not be Solo anymore. So maybe you could instead be helpful and tell him how to make his solo BBEG face a full party and still be challenging without breaking the rules?
The only way I know of is to make the terrain he fights in heavily advantage him. But what if you don't want to do that? What if you want a straight up slugfest between a party and a single BBEG? Please enlighten us how that is possible staying within the rules?
Apples and oranges. Apples, in this regard, are your petty insults, while oranges are the fact that we are talking about the rules as written.
My point was simply that I break many "rules." The universe does not implode and MY players like it. That YOU wouldn't is not my concern nor is it the OP's concern. If he thinks doing this might be a good idea that's his prerogative.
YOU'RE talking about the RAW and no one that I saw ever stated the RAW allows a creature to take multiple standard actions in a round. So if you're here just to remind everyone that none of the Pathfinder books have a way to do this well then mission accomplished you are absolutely right. I don't disagree. It's not allowed in the rules. But since we are in General Discussion and not the Rules forum how about you move along and let other people be creative?
Some people want to give solo encounters more oomph so they let the creature or BBEG or whatever move twice per initiative turn. That's it. They aren't throwing down a board and miniatures, they aren't pooping in player's faces and demanding they stop roleplaying. Jeez.No, they are deciding that they can't make a challenging encounter within the rules, so rather than think through it they have to go outside the lines.
Its a cop-out. A short cut, and one that doesn't do a good job at that.
And many people, myself included, will be bothered by that lack and that willingness to cut corners rather than work through things.
Encounters with one creature can be challenging. The easy way to combat 'action economy' is to put the PCs on the reactive. Having them spend actions to undo or to fix rather than to directly address.
Its not all that hard, but one has to keep in mind what the party is capable of doing. Part of that is realizing how quickly the game can change as the PCs gain a few levels. Doing your homework and doing a mock battle or two beforehand will do wonders in this regard.
-James
Or they think it would be a cool idea and a better challenge for a create going twice.
I said it before, but I can't imagine feeling like the DM has to always obey every rule for the sake of obeying every rule.
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No, they are deciding that they can't make a challenging encounter within the rules, so rather than think through it they have to go outside the lines.Its a cop-out. A short cut, and one that doesn't do a good job at that.
And many people, myself included, will be bothered by that lack and that willingness to cut corners rather than work through things.
Encounters with one creature can be challenging. The easy way to combat 'action economy' is to put the PCs on the reactive. Having them spend actions to undo or to fix rather than to directly address.
Its not all that hard, but one has to keep in mind what the party is capable of doing. Part of that is realizing how quickly the game can change as the PCs gain a few levels. Doing your homework and doing a mock battle or two beforehand will do wonders in this regard.
-James
Why don't you post some 5th and 10th level solo encounter examples - no special circumstances, no starting special environment or PC conditions.
Oh yeah, no spells or SLAs for the creature.
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What story base? What's the party? Why no spells or SLAs? Why no environment?
You seem to have something in mind or at least something that you wish to avoid. Is it to be on some featureless plain??
Or is this whole thing just to be contrary?
-James
No, not to be contrary, I want you to produce a creature encounter that is level appropriate that can function as a solo encounter. It could be a featureless plain...or better yet something uncommon – how about a large room located underground?
I want you to create or pick a two creature encounters that addresses action economy, and is a challenge for a group of 5th level (CR 8) and 10th level (CR 13) players, 4 players per team per encounter. PCs are average 15 point buy types with all the proper gear and spells.
No story.
No environmental conditions, no pre-existing conditions and do it all without giving the creature spells or SLAs.
Nothing to supplement the creature - no fighting single file over a beam laid out across molten lava. If special conditions exist, it's due to the nature of the creature and not DM fabrication or situational contrivance.
So address action economy and creature/party survivability beyond a couple of rounds. The point is to make an encounter that strikes the balance that isn't over in a few rounds but also doesn't lead to automatic TPK because you had to use a much higher CR creature to keep the fight going for more than a few rounds.
Produce the encounter
See if you can pull this off:
The easy way to combat 'action economy' is to put the PCs on the reactive. Having them spend actions to undo or to fix rather than to directly address.
What story base? What's the party? Why no spells or SLAs? Why no environment?
You seem to have something in mind or at least something that you wish to avoid. Is it to be on some featureless plain??
Or is this whole thing just to be contrary?
-James
No, not to be contrary, I want you to produce a creature encounter that is level appropriate that can function as a solo encounter. It could be a featureless plain...or better yet something uncommon – how about a large room located underground?
I want you to create or pick a two creature encounters that addresses action economy, and is a challenge for a group of 5th level (CR 8) and 10th level (CR 13) players, 4 players per team per encounter. PCs are average 15 point buy types with all the proper gear and spells.
No story.No environmental conditions, no pre-existing conditions and do it all without giving the creature spells or SLAs.
Nothing to supplement the creature - no fighting single file over a beam laid out across molten lava. If special conditions exist, it's due to the nature of the creature and not DM fabrication or situational contrivance.So address action economy and creature/party survivability beyond a couple of rounds. The point is to make an encounter that strikes the balance that isn't over in a few rounds but also doesn't lead to automatic TPK because you had to use a much higher CR creature to keep the fight going for more than a few rounds.
Produce the encounterSee if you can pull this off:
The easy way to combat 'action economy' is to put the PCs on the reactive. Having them spend actions to undo or to fix rather than to directly address.
lvl 5 monk large earth elemental CR7.5
str 28 (24 +4)
dex 10 (8 +2)
con 20 (17+2+1)
int 6 (6)
wis 15 (11+4)
cha 9 (11-2)
AC: 22 (10 Natural -1 size +3 monk)
HP 132 (8d10+5d8+65) 44+23+65
F 15 (4+5+6) R 8 (4+2+0+2) W 12 (4+6+2) +2 enchantment
DR5/-, elemental immunities
Speed: 30, 30 burrow, earthglide
space: 10 feet
Darkvision 60 ft, Tremorsense 60 ft
Attacks: 2 slams +20(+8+3+9) 2d6+9 (17 2d6+15 w/PA) (+1 attack and damage if both target and you are on the ground from Earth Mastery)
Flurry of Blows: 21/21/16/11 2d6+9 (17/17/11/7 2d6+17 w/ PA)
Unarmed Strike: 21/16/11 2d6+9 (17/12/7 2d6+15 w/ PA)
Stunning Fist 7 times per day, DC 18
10 ft reach
BAB +11 CMB 23 CMD 33
Feats: Cleave, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Unnarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Lightning Reflexes
Special Attack: Earth Mastery
Special Defenses: Evasion, slowfall 20 ft, purity of body, still mind
He has tremorsense and can burrow, so he can hide under the ground and come up wherever he wants to attack anyone. They will not know which square he is in every round, so the damage dealers will have to deal with readied actions. He has DR and enough HP and AC that he survive for a decent ammount of time. Evasion and good saves overall give him protection from casters, with added elemental immunites. His damage is high, so the PCs will need to stay out of his full attack or they will spend a lot of time healing. He also has a great disable attack of grappling the opponent and then moving them into the earth.
Note, I could make him nastier by getting rid or Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, and weapon focus in favor dodge, mobility, and spring attack so he ends every turn in the ground safely out of reach. That may actually be nicer though, since it would drastically reduce his damage.
This guy has no gear. I could easily give him a wand of CMW for healing, some more AC, HP, damage, or saves. I don't think he needs it though.
Scale him up to greater earth elemental and give him 3 more levels and he can take on the CR 10 party. Then I would probably adjust him for spring attack.
PH2
Celerity, greater- immediate action to cast, grants you a full round action, then you are dazed on your next action
8th lvl wiz/sor spell
MiC
Belt of battle- swift action to activate, grants full round action
i forget which PrC out the vile darkness gives you extra full round actions...
or just give him DM granted powers
PH2
Celerity, greater- immediate action to cast, grants you a full round action, then you are dazed on your next action
8th lvl wiz/sor spellMiC
Belt of battle- swift action to activate, grants full round actioni forget which PrC out the vile darkness gives you extra full round actions...
or just give him DM granted powers
And Celerity doesn't grant you an extra round. It scales up your round so you do it sooner (unless of course you have immunity to daze, then its just broken.) It also takes a lvl 8 slot.
The Belt of Battle your PC will then get. It will be more game breaking in his hands than the NPC's, I can assure you.
PCs can use the book of Vile darkness too, so its possible in the game world and the PCs will be able to do it. If you use it against them, they will use it against you in the future. Besides, its really lame if every BBEG uses the same classes.
DM granted powers are the exact point of the debate. Arbitrary powers that violate game rules are not a good thing. They may be fine for some groups, but I know a lot of people who would not put up with it or the DM for very long.
This is how I would do it. Give him split personalities both with separate and different classes. Make both of the personalities aware of each other and have them work together. This would give you a way that you could justify the two turns in one round and could free the Baddy if the PCs get a pesky hold person or similar spell because there are two of them in there and only one would be effected. You could even back story that he was born a twin and one absorbed the other but the absorbed twins power, even as a fetus, was great enough that it carved a place inside the other being and caused it to become the corrupted wretch that they see before them. Wait.... this is a great tactic I am going to use it.
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In one of my games i had a first level party completely punk a CR4 monster. One round and a lucky crit was all it took. A battle I was hoping would take a decent amount of play time and lead to exciting actions was reduced to: "we surround it, and beat on it." for climactic fights with solo monsters, I might have them act at Initiative -10 and if there's 6+ people in the party Initiative -20. It means that the fight can last a bit longer, and players have to do more than wolf-pack. If my players know the reason why i implement a rule (so we can all have fun) then they don't mind usually. Using monster abilities is part of the GMs fun, just as using class features is part of the player's fun. A GM who doesn't get to use a neat breath weapon or attack sequence can feel just as cheated as a player who has a character go insane for a whole session. Due to a bad save.
lvl 5 monk large earth elemental CR7.5str 28 (24 +4)
dex 10 (8 +2)
con 20 (17+2+1)
int 6 (6)
wis 15 (11+4)
cha 9 (11-2)AC: 22 (10 Natural -1 size +3 monk)
HP 132 (8d10+5d8+65) 44+23+65
F 15 (4+5+6) R 8 (4+2+0+2) W 12 (4+6+2) +2 enchantment
DR5/-, elemental...
After thinking about this guy, I would probably drop him down to lvl 3 monk. He does a little too much damage and doesn't need that 4th attack. getting rid of Ki points will also make him easier to run. He loses a point of con, so I may decide to give him max hitpoints. I would get rid of weapon focus, and if I wanted to do the spring attack build I would lose lightning reflexes. I don't like his fists dropping down to d8s this way though.
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Its not all that hard, but one has to keep in mind what the party is capable of doing. Part of that is realizing how quickly the game can change as the PCs gain a few levels. Doing your homework and doing a mock battle or two beforehand will do wonders in this regard.-James
Like I said, go ahead and add 5 hours to your workload DM to make it challenging for me who merely has to keep his character sheet correct.
BUT PLAY WITHIN THE RULES OR ITS A COP OUT AND I'M LEAVING!
As far as the OP goes - I did this exact thing at the end of my last (and to date longest running) campaign. The party showed up for the showdown with the BBEG and were stunned, surprised, and really enjoyed it when he went a 2nd time in the initative order.
I love templates. Love, love, love, LOVE them! So I slapped one I cooked up on him called "Quickened". Any quickened creature acts on their normal initative count and then again at their iniative -10. If this would drop their initiative to less than 1, they only go once that round. So, an initative of 23 means the bbeg would go on 23 and 13. An initiative of 9 means he only goes on 9.
Additionally, I threw in for flavor that he moved so fast that his movements actually functioned like move-action, stilled, silenced teleports. Basically, he moved so fast he just seemed to vanish and then appear at his destination as he swung his terrible sword at a suddenly surprised PC.
Since my group loves anime and grew up on DBZ, they really, really loved that touch.
Its not all that hard, but one has to keep in mind what the party is capable of doing. Part of that is realizing how quickly the game can change as the PCs gain a few levels. Doing your homework and doing a mock battle or two beforehand will do wonders in this regard.-James
Like I said, go ahead and add 5 hours to your workload DM to make it challenging for me who merely has to keep his character sheet correct.
BUT PLAY WITHIN THE RULES OR ITS A COP OUT AND I'M LEAVING!
I just choked on my lunch and fell over laughing.
lvl 5 monk large earth elemental CR7.5
Interesting... Except, of course, that without Spring Attack to allow for hit and run attacks, he's got a whole round when he's easily full attack-able by anyone within a 5' step. He's tough, but he's not as tough as you make him out to be.
I do find it interesting that everyone gets up in arms about the idea of the DM creating new abilities for NPCs or monsters, but they don't seem to think it's just as much cheating to create an encounter where the enemy is fighting in extremely favorable terrain that will hamper the PCs. After all, the PCs don't get to design terrain to perfectly suit them and completely hinder their enemies, so why would the enemy? I mean, that's just cheating, right?
I've run and played in plenty of encounters with solo monsters, and schooled them rather repeatedly. In 2nd darkness, our party encountered the Moldering Emperor, who was at least 2 points of CR above our APL, and we eliminated it within one round. He got a single action against us, and it barely hurt. And we had been worried about him.
About things that are not in the rules... What about the Legion Devil for example?That's a specific creature, not a game modification done to everything that happens to be encountered without backup.
From the OP one would think that we're talking about one pecific case...
I have been toying with the idea of letting a specific BBEG act more than once in a round, mainly to make the bad guy more tough, since this bad guy has no underlings and will not be at the end of a dungeon (AKA the party will be at 100%). Has anyone else done something like this before or have any idea how much more deadly this would be if i did implicate such an ability/rule? Assuming that I let him go only one additional time, the plan would be to have him take his second turn at half of what his normal initiative is or to at least let half of the party go before his second attack.
lvl 5 monk large earth elemental CR7.5Interesting... Except, of course, that without Spring Attack to allow for hit and run attacks, he's got a whole round when he's easily full attack-able by anyone within a 5' step. He's tough, but he's not as tough as you make him out to be.
I do find it interesting that everyone gets up in arms about the idea of the DM creating new abilities for NPCs or monsters, but they don't seem to think it's just as much cheating to create an encounter where the enemy is fighting in extremely favorable terrain that will hamper the PCs. After all, the PCs don't get to design terrain to perfectly suit them and completely hinder their enemies, so why would the enemy? I mean, that's just cheating, right?
I've run and played in plenty of encounters with solo monsters, and schooled them rather repeatedly. In 2nd darkness, our party encountered the Moldering Emperor, who was at least 2 points of CR above our APL, and we eliminated it within one round. He got a single action against us, and it barely hurt. And we had been worried about him.
He can technically attack from 5 feet under the ground, taking the 50% miss chance but able to identify the square thanks to tremor sense. He can also move to just under the surface and get partial cover while still being able to see. It was designed for a EPL of 5, so full attack isn't that big a deal. Against a standard fighter, power attacking with a THS, you are looking at 2d6+15 damage (22 str, +2 weapon, -5 for DR), so he lasts 5 rounds of him if every attack hits without a crit. At +14, he is looking at slightly more than half of his attacks hitting. Other PCs will not be nearly as affecive, since it is not evil, immune to sneak attack, has decent saves, is immune to most combat manuevers, and can bring that fighter to critical in 1 round, forcing his allies to adjust tactics. Since I haven't distributed his wealth, I would probably give the elemental some potions to heal with, so he can retreat and come back unexpectedly, and perhaps some AC increasing items to get better than a 22.
PCs don't design the terrain, but they interact with it in a way they understand. Weird terrain does not violate the rules of the game world, it enhances it usually by giving an exotic setting. Giving monsters abilities this drastic while not simultaneously allowing PCs to figure out how it is done is terrible for continuity of the game world. Not to start a flame war, but its one of the core reasons why a lot of people I know do not like 4E. If you use this tactic, you risk alienating a large number of players, while proper encounter design will not alienate those same players. That is not to say you can't use it for your group. You know your group better than I do, but I know I would not have fun in a game where the GM did this, so I can't in good faith encourage it and will actively dissuade people from using the advice. Also, take a look at my monster. If you give him 2 attacks, he will totally destroy whatever PC he goes up against, with arround 70 damage from a standard attack and a full round, even after I drop him to a lvl 3 monk.
Meh. Enemies get abilities PCs can't have all the time, though. I can't have a character with a pugwumpi's unlucky aura, or a beholder's multiple eye rays, or a drow's spell resistance. Are these abilities cheating? Are they legal because they were written down somewhere?
What this boils down to is the assertion that the dm is cheating because he's given a monster a new ability that isn't available to the PCs, while not using other abilities not available to the PCs.
For the record, I'm not a huge fan of 4.0 myself, but certain ideas from it (namely, minion rules and more interesting solo creatures) are appealing and seem like they actually would make the game better.
Meh. Enemies get abilities PCs can't have all the time, though. I can't have a character with a pugwumpi's unlucky aura, or a beholder's multiple eye rays, or a drow's spell resistance. Are these abilities cheating? Are they legal because they were written down somewhere?
What this boils down to is the assertion that the dm is cheating because he's given a monster a new ability that isn't available to the PCs, while not using other abilities not available to the PCs.
For the record, I'm not a huge fan of 4.0 myself, but certain ideas from it (namely, minion rules and more interesting solo creatures) are appealing and seem like they actually would make the game better.
The difference is that those abilities all have a reason to be in the game world. They are all racial abilities. As such, they are not available to humans and a human villian could not get those abilities.
As I said before, this ability in certain contexts I would not have a problem with. Divine entities, for example I would have no problem giving it to. I would also have no problems giving it to someone who somehow screwed with temporal laws, or something with the equivalent of wired reflexes. Then you are working the ability into the game world, and in some cases the players would be able to mimic the power. I would make sure there are negative consequences for them doing so though, that they learn before they do it, to disuade them.
I have a problem with giving it to monsters just because they are alone and need to be more challenging. A T-rex with this ability for no reason would bother me a lot. I just had the idea for a temporal elemental though, and that would be cool.
Funny, the minion rules are one of my least favorite rules in 4.0. They exemplify exactly my problem with this ability. The PCs are different than everyone else in the game world.
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I do find it interesting that everyone gets up in arms about the idea of the DM creating new abilities for NPCs or monsters, but they don't seem to think it's just as much cheating to create an encounter where the enemy is fighting in extremely favorable terrain that will hamper the PCs. After all, the PCs don't get to design terrain to perfectly suit them and completely hinder their enemies, so why would the enemy? I mean, that's just cheating, right?
That was one of the points of the exercise.
And yeah Caineach, your monk elemental build is too heavy at 7.5 cr and then gets really weak when you shave off two levels - plus no, you can't give it max hp to make up the difference.
So that drops him to around 93 hp, AC 21, DR 5/-, +50% miss chance? Not really that tough as a 6.5 cr creature. Either over powered or underpowered, and it would be nice if PFRPG had some actual information and clarity on burrowing movement.
I think it's sort of sad that to make a creature viable we need to add standard character class levels, i.e. a monk elemental. I find a bit silly and stupid as a concept that an elemental should have take levels in monk to increase its survivability. Or even levels as a fighter - giving it magic weapons and potions, helmet, etc as part of its gear. Sorry from a classic gaming perspective this sort of solution is a failure. May work for some people but I don't like it as a solution, to me it seems clunky and very forced.
And again we have monsters subjected to all the same trappings as PCs -fire elemental drinking a potion, giving an elemental a sword or nunchucks or something equally stupid instead of just making it a better earth elemental. Adding classes and items works for some humanoid monsters - but not all.
Very MtG, like equipping a Will-o-wisp with an artifact - wotc fail.
I think I am going to start working on a few different monster npc classes – maybe with built in scaling DR, AC and HP bonuses – or whatever is appropriate for the creature/role – SR, casting level in the class for Spell role. Probably structure it around the PF monster roles – Combat, Spell, Skill and Special. I think the PC classes will be a good starting point – once the unnecessary fat from each appropriate class is trimmed (familiars, scribe scroll, armor training, etc). Just using advanced templates or standard PC classes doesn’t address the problems I see inherent with the game.
I don’t think that creature translation from 2nd to 3.0 was successful, and while I like the CR as a core concept I think I will look at changing the baseline from :
4 players =CR (-20% resources) model to CR= 1 player 50% survival.
With the latter system I can still calculate up down survivability and add in multiple creatures to an encounter. Or maybe have 4 players 50% survival = CR. Of course all the CR values would have to be changed. Ugh.
I don’t think that each encounter should be CR stated and balanced against 4 other encounters per day, I think each encounter should be taken on its individual-threat face value. Still can have the same guidline on numbers of encounters per day, resources per encounter based on threat – so a 50% survival encounter should use around 1/2 the parties resources or HP. Each encounter should have a stand alone formula and scaled to the threat/reward it provides and not hinged on 4 other equally powered encounters.
Plenty of work though, too much. Sorry for the rant/derail.
Thanks everyone for the responses so far. Lots of good ideas and advice.
Just going to leave this here for the OP to peruse.
Hmm...Interesting... Especially since the BBEG will be a construct.