Personally I'd prefer a template over items any day. You can sunder/steal/negate/drain the items but the template is a little harder to lose.
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A naughty Lich could come along, kill me and my merry fellows and claim our x thousand gold worth of items as loot.
However, we/a single character might well defeat a Lich *but* if we/my character does we can't claim the Lich template as part of the loot...
To summarise: You can't loot a template!
That's because you are looking at it the wrong way. You should be comparing the lich template to 240,000gp worth of magic items, since that's what you could create with 120,000gp. The phylactery rules make it clear that the 120,000gp is the COST, not the MARKET PRICE. So I ask you all to look at it from that persepctive. What would a straight wizard with his many bonus item creation feats be able to make with 120,000gp and 6 months? How does that now compare to the template?
...I'm amazed that nobody has responded to this despite the fact it is, like, the 5th time it's appeared in the thread.
This may be the case but the party is rewarded in GP and treasure, tangible rewards, for slaying the monster, not some half credit system.
You are saying the because you have to spend it on a specific item that the 120,000 should instead be 240,000g in wealth? That is completely backwards. When you are awarded an item it is given to you based off of its cost to create(For the purposes of calculating GP reward on the tables) not its market price. A magic sword is found in the lair of a goblin king for instance. That sword represents its cost to create on the loot table not the price it would cost at market.
If you are trying to twist the math like that you would instead be spending only 60,000g in magical items and weapons that would be acquired as rewards.How is that backwards? In most cases, an item crafter can take what ever gold they have and, given time, turn it into twice it's worth in magical items. If it didn't, there would be little point to item creation (see 4E).
If I had acquired 120,000gp through adventuring and saving, and then spent 6 months crafting magical items that granted me abilities that were roughly analogous to those granted by the lich template, there would be no complaints from any of you like those we've seen in this thread. What's more, you likely wouldn't detain my advancement by two levels.
However, since...
There are no combination of items that can give you the equiavlent of the lich template that you can have without blowing WBL out of the water by level 11. Even the list that was presented earlier did not equal the template, and it was well beyond the WBL. If you can't even get the ones that scratch the surface of the template after spending 120000, there is not way you can get ones that equal the template without a very generous DM. To put it frankly the template is the cheapest way from a monetary point of view to get the lich's abilities so you see there is no double standard because without the template the abilities just don't come into play*.
*I am not saying there is not a DM anywhere in the world that would let it pass, but as you can see most of us here would not allow it to happen.
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One thing that puzzles me however is how you amassed this much wealth independently as well? Have you completely paid off the phylactery yet?
Because if that is the case the DM must be incredibly generous with the gold, put you on the slow leveling track, or your other party members have been giving you a significantly higher than equal share. By all accounts at level 10 you should only have somewhere in the range of 62k gold and wealth. With generosity and using the fast table, you would instead be at 99.2 k golds worth of personal wealth, including treasure.
What!? Really!? He kills EVERYTHING that comes within his reach! And with his speed, things don't stay out of his reach for very long. He is considered the most powerful character in the group (at least in terms of raw combat ability).
Quick glances can be misleading.Paladin archers can't easily smite a witch they can't see. I also used to have a zombie hydra that I turned on them so they had more important things to worry about than little old Hama. Lost the hydra though.
So the guys you fight all have animal int and just stand and full attack each other? They don't move? Use tactics?
That and the paladin encounter says your DM is giving you a free ride. Level 11 druid should at least know your square...even with the 50% miss chance for invis, your dead ...not unconcious, but straight out dead. If they are dealing with a hydra zombie as archers before a CASTER, then they are being played very poorly. Rule 1 of combat, geek the mage.
+1. When I am really wanting to give the party a hard time the healer and arcane dude are the first targets. Its kind of pointless to kill/maim someone to have the cleric undo it, and its hard to kill people with the mage running interference.
One thing that puzzles me however is how you amassed this much wealth independently as well? Have you completely paid off the phylactery yet?
Because if that is the case the DM must be incredibly generous with the gold, put you on the slow leveling track, or your other party members have been giving you a significantly higher than equal share. By all accounts at level 10 you should only have somewhere in the range of 62k gold and wealth. With generosity and using the fast table, you would instead be at 99.2 k golds worth of personal wealth, including treasure.
In another post IIRC they dont pay much attention to the WBL chart which is how he thinks he would have had 240000 of items when the chart only allows for 82000.
I dont think being a slave to the chart is a good idea, but almost tripling it has never happened in games I have run, played in, or observed.
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How is that backwards? In most cases, an item crafter can take what ever gold they have and, given time, turn it into twice it's worth in magical items. If it didn't, there would be little point to item creation (see 4E).(And just to be clear, I am not trying to take a 50,000gp sword and selling it for 50,000gp which I then make into a 100,000gp item, or anything like that.)
If I had acquired 120,000gp in actual coin through adventuring and saving, and then spent 6 months crafting 240,000gp of RAW magical items that granted me abilities that were roughly analogous to those granted...
Actually I do agree with RD here (BTW Hama need craft wonderous before she can become a lich). The phylactery is a 240k since you spend 120k + craft wonderous item to make it. That said, the lich template is STILL worth more then 240k gold. The 120k mark got past even before we got to the GOOD stuff. And BTW the cost for the stat boost alone is worth way more then the example. The items give enhancement bonuses that can be gotten from a lot of sources...hence why they cost less then tomes. Since the +2s stack with EVERYTHING including tomes and enchancements, they should be at least worth the tomes...if not more. That is 150k worth at the very least right there. Considering that it does stack with tomes and items, a 50% sure charge to make 225k seems about right. And it's slotless...for double cost for 450k. Yep that's about what I would charge a player if they wanted +2 to 3 stats that stacked with everything else. So yeah, man up, eat the LA like the guideline says and be glad your not paying the 4 levels of 3.5.
So the guys you fight all have animal int and just stand and full attack each other? They don't move? Use tactics?
That and the paladin encounter says your DM is giving you a free ride. Level 11 druid should at least know your square...even with the 50% miss chance for invis, your dead ...not unconscious, but straight out dead. If they are dealing with a hydra zombie as archers before a CASTER, then they are being played very poorly. Rule 1 of combat, geek the mage.
It's my fault for not giving out more information.
Kind of hard to follow rule one when you don't identify any of your enemies as mages to begin with. Hama excels at being unassuming and subtlety. The members of that faction likely won't fall for it in the future, but its gotten Hama this far. Hopefully, she will be a lich by the time she encounters them again.
Second, the hydra was hidden in a river underneath our boat. The paladin archers were pelting our boat with arrows trying to get at us, but they couldn't hit us due to all the cover. About a 3rd of them flew over and attempted to board the boat while the rest started lighting their arrows to ignite our boat on fire. Those that flew over were ambushed and torn apart by the hydra.
The remaining two-thirds were driven off by the other characters (who either retaliated with ranged attacks or leaped into melee). Most of the flaming arrows went into the hydra rather than the boat (though they did sink it with the few that landed).
I've only ever seen our GM make one serious tactical error--and it was likely due to it being a late game in the early AM. She had enough enemies to overwhelm us. We stopped the lot of them in a doorway/bottleneck so they could only get at us one at a time. She could have had all of them rush through the bottleneck (with the first two or three getting annihilated by attacks of opportunity and prepared actions) in order to surround us.
Instead, they literally took their turn, and came into the doorway one at a time.
That's the one and only instance, and I attribute it to mental exhaustion rather than going easy.
So yeah, man up, eat the LA like the guideline says and be glad your not paying the 4 levels of 3.5.
If my GM insists upon it, then yeah, I guess I'll have to if I want to continue playing this awesome character.
I'm just trying to point out all the double standards and hypocritical statements that keep popping up in this thread.
Also, the monster as PC guidelines don't really cover templates. Many of the rules that have been quoted are really meant for creatures with racial HD.
And they are guidelines. Yet, many posters here adhere to them extraordinarily strictly. Tell me, how many levels would you delay a skeletal champion or a drow noble? Whether or not you go by the guidelines, you are going to end up just guessing in the end.
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So the guys you fight all have animal int and just stand and full attack each other? They don't move? Use tactics?
That and the paladin encounter says your DM is giving you a free ride. Level 11 druid should at least know your square...even with the 50% miss chance for invis, your dead ...not unconscious, but straight out dead. If they are dealing with a hydra zombie as archers before a CASTER, then they are being played very poorly. Rule 1 of combat, geek the mage.
It's my fault for not giving out more information.
Kind of hard to follow rule one when you don't identify any of your enemies as mages to begin with. Hama excels at being unassuming and subtlety. The members of that faction likely won't fall for it in the future, but its gotten Hama this far. Hopefully, she will be a lich by the time she encounters them again.
Second, the hydra was hidden in a river underneath our boat. The paladin archers were pelting our boat with arrows trying to get at us, but they couldn't hit us due to all the cover. About a 3rd of them flew over and attempted to board the boat while the rest started lighting their arrows to ignite our boat on fire. Those that flew over were ambushed and torn apart by the hydra.
The remaining two-thirds were driven off by the other characters (who either retaliated with ranged attacks or leaped into melee). Most of the flaming arrows went into the hydra rather than the boat (though they did sink it with the few that landed).
Umm so you weren't even invisable?!? I'm sorry, but the one in no armor or weapons out in the party of scary evil critters that isn't bound dies first. If you can walk around a bunch of evil gits and not need a weapon or armor, then you really are the one that needs to die first.
And high level archers had issue hitting AC 12? That is your ac with cover. Or even 21? That the barbarian's with cover. The ranger and cleric...maybe...with the iteratives. And you guys have one GOOD archer and they went into melee?!? With a squad of archers?!? No really, this is your example of playing smart?!? I'm sorry...but that encounter tactic was totally fubared to let you win.
Also, the monster as PC guidelines don't really cover templates. Many of the rules that have been quoted are really meant for creatures with racial HD.
Dammit, you ninja'd me, I was just about to make this point...but 95 messages since I went to work slowed me down!
Any chance of such rules in the GameMastery Guide?
So yeah, man up, eat the LA like the guideline says and be glad your not paying the 4 levels of 3.5.If my GM insists upon it, then yeah, I guess I'll have to if I want to continue playing this awesome character.
I'm just trying to point out all the double standards and hypocritical statements that keep popping up in this thread.
Also, the monster as PC guidelines don't really cover templates. Many of the rules that have been quoted are really meant for creatures with racial HD.
And they are guidelines. Yet, many posters here adhere to them extraordinarily strictly. Tell me, how many levels would you delay a skeletal champion or a drow noble? Whether or not you go by the guidelines, you are going to end up just guessing in the end.
There are no double standards or hypocritical statements. I am sure templates were not meant to be given out for free RP'ing involved or not.
I basically make up my own LA. Sometimes it agrees with the book,and sometimes it does not. The Lich is a 2 or 3 by my calculations. The drow noble I have not figured out yet. I have been thinking about it because I might need one soon.
I have also explained how the magic item equivalent of a lich would never be gained by level 11 in most games because there wont that much wealth by that level. Naplam did not even do a full calculation, and he is already up to 450000. The other poster got to about 150000 on another page, and the template is still not completely accounted for after 600000 gold is spent. As far as money you are only paying 120000 for the phylactery. That is a 480000 discount at the least, and you only have to deal with a +2 LA. I think you came out on top with that deal.
The Bestiary has guidelines for using Monsters with CR's of 1 or higher as characters, and it uses a 'LA' like system that has built-in buyoff.
Every 3rd level actually grants 2 levels to the PC, up until 1/2 the CR is bought back (in this example at level 20 RavingDork's Sorceress would have 19 levels and hit dice of Sorceress and 1 'level' of Lich template)
Actually... that is not the case. Every 3rd level granting 2 levels is for RACIAL HD. RD's example is a template monster. Big, and significant difference.
Sorry Themetricsystem, it doesn't work that way according to the RAW. The Wealth By Level table and loot handed out is accounted for at Market Cost.
That's because you are looking at it the wrong way. You should be comparing the lich template to 240,000gp worth of magic items, since that's what you could create with 120,000gp. The phylactery rules make it clear that the 120,000gp is the COST, not the MARKET PRICE. So I ask you all to look at it from that persepctive. What would a straight wizard with his many bonus item creation feats be able to make with 120,000gp and 6 months? How does that now compare to the template?
...I'm amazed that nobody has responded to this despite the fact it is, like, the 5th time it's appeared in the thread.
This may be the case but the party is rewarded in GP and treasure, tangible rewards, for slaying the monster, not some half credit system.
You are saying the because you have to spend it on a specific item that the 120,000 should instead be 240,000g in wealth? That is completely backwards. When you are awarded an item it is given to you based off of its cost to create(For the purposes of calculating GP reward on the tables) not its market price. A magic sword is found in the lair of a goblin king for instance. That sword represents its cost to create on the loot table not the price it would cost at market.
If you are trying to twist the math like that you would instead be spending only 60,000g in magical items and weapons that would be acquired as rewards.
Darn you KR, but you are right.
RD: My earlier point about ignoring the WBL still stands.
Also, the monster as PC guidelines don't really cover templates. Many of the rules that have been quoted are really meant for creatures with racial HD.Dammit, you ninja'd me, I was just about to make this point...but 95 messages since I went to work slowed me down!
Any chance of such rules in the GameMastery Guide?
They poohed the scrooch by not making guidelines on templates. That leaves it in DM territory. Maybe we can put it in the next errata.
<goes to the errata thread>
Umm so you weren't even invisable?!?
No, not at first.
I'm sorry, but the one in no armor or weapons out in the party of scary evil critters that isn't bound dies first.
Probably would have if our super-perception ranger hadn't seen them lying in ambush.
If you can walk around a bunch of evil gits and not need a weapon or armor, then you really are the one that needs to die first.
Sure, if you are even considered a target. For all they knew Hama was nothing more than a hired hand guiding the boat. Hama looks like a peasant, not a wizard.
And high level archers had issue hitting AC 12? That is your ac with cover. Or even 21? That the barbarian's with cover.
I had total cover once I got inside the boat's cabin. The barbarian had total cover from swimming to shore.
The ranger and cleric...maybe...with the iteratives.
The cleric used the few ranged spells he had (he didn't dare swim with his full plate). The archer stayed on the boat and returned fire.
...and they went into melee?!? With a squad of archers?!?
Um, yeah. The monk closed the distance the fastest thanks to his speed. He started pummeling them with unarmed strikes. When they 5-ft. stepped back to shoot him he would just wail on them with his pole arm and then step in. Between him, the hydra, and the attacks coming from the boat, they were pretty harried. (Hama even managed to put one or two to sleep.)
No really, this is your example of playing smart?!? I'm sorry...but that encounter tactic was totally fubared to let you win.
Using lots of question marks and explanation points doesn't make you right, or sound smart, or anything for that matter.
RD: My earlier point about ignoring the WBL still stands.
I never said it didn't. Since we are not at the level where I can become a lich yet, I can't say whether or not we are over our wealth limits (in fact, if you check our sheets, I'm fairly certain we as a party are under them). Obviously, if I save up enough by 11th to become a lich, then I'm a fair bit over to say the least. That may not happen though. We will just have to wait and see.
That's because you are looking at it the wrong way. You should be comparing the lich template to 240,000gp worth of magic items, since that's what you could create with 120,000gp. The phylactery rules make it clear that the 120,000gp is the COST, not the MARKET PRICE. So I ask you all to look at it from that persepctive. What would a straight wizard with his many bonus item creation feats be able to make with 120,000gp and 6 months? How does that now compare to the template?
...I'm amazed that nobody has responded to this despite the fact it is, like, the 5th time it's appeared in the thread.
Oh dear god that is really a silly way to look at it. Let me just put that comment into perspective and make sure I understood it correctly. So your logic is basically saying that if you buy a a 12-pack of beer for $10 at the store, because you could sell each beer for $2 a bottle, you actually just spent $24? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you.
Oh dear god that is really a silly way to look at it. Let me just put that comment into perspective and make sure I understood it correctly. So your logic is basically saying that if you buy a a 12-pack of beer for $10 at the store, because you could sell each beer for $2 a bottle, you actually just spent $24? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you.
I don't entirely understand your analogy, but no, that's not what I mean.
Say you have craft wondros items and 50,000gp. You use all that money to create wondrous items for yourself. Now, what is the sum of the market price of all the items you now have?
It will most likely be 100,000gp. Congratulations, you now have 100,000gp worth of gear. If you'd like, you can sell it all for 50,000gp and be back where you started.
What I was saying is that 120,000gp could get me 240,000gp worth of magical items if I made them myself.
Therefore, when comparing those theoretical items to the lich template, you should be using 240,000gp as the standard, not 120,000gp. That was the point I was trying to make. It doesn't help that a lot of the math is situational and subject to opinion (as was shown by Cold Napalm when he arbitrarily raised the theoretical item's worth to account for miscellany).
Even so, it's possible that 240,000gp STILL isn't enough to balance it. I haven't crunched the numbers.
Ya know that does not even factor in unless you have the feats, down time and spell needed to craft any item you want. you simply do not. So that I could have 240'000 gp of magic items is BS
and no that is not enough balance no where near enough as people have pointed out many times now.
Ya know that does not even factor in unless you have the feats, down time and spell needed to craft any item you want. you simply do not. So that I could have 240'000 gp of magic items is BS
But that's the thing. In order to become a lich, I need 120,000gp, Craft Wondrous Items, and nearly 6 months.
If I can get that, I could also choose to make that 120,000gp into 240,000gp worth of magical items INSTEAD.
If not, then I can't get a bunch of cool loot OR become a lich. Since we are doing a theoretical balance comparison, however, we ARE assuming that I WILL have the time to craft either a phylactery OR a bunch of phat loot (because otherwise the whole discussion becomes moot).
Even if the lich still comes out on top, I think I've proven that it isn't AS powerful as everyone is making it out to be once you factor in the costs and other variables.
Ya know that does not even factor in unless you have the feats, down time and spell needed to craft any item you want. you simply do not. So that I could have 240'000 gp of magic items is BS
and no that is not enough balance no where near enough as people have pointed out many times now.
+1. Says what I said earlier in a lot less words.
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Umm so you weren't even invisable?!?No, not at first.
I'm sorry, but the one in no armor or weapons out in the party of scary evil critters that isn't bound dies first.Probably would have if our super-perception ranger hadn't seen them lying in ambush.
If you can walk around a bunch of evil gits and not need a weapon or armor, then you really are the one that needs to die first.Sure, if you are even considered a target. For all they knew Hama was nothing more than a hired hand guiding the boat. Hama looks like a peasant, not a wizard.
And high level archers had issue hitting AC 12? That is your ac with cover. Or even 21? That the barbarian's with cover.I had total cover once I got inside the boat's cabin. The barbarian had total cover from swimming to shore.
The ranger and cleric...maybe...with the iteratives.The cleric used the few ranged spells he had (he didn't dare swim with his full plate). The archer stayed on the boat and returned fire.
...and they went into melee?!? With a squad of archers?!?Um, yeah. The monk closed the distance the fastest thanks to his speed. He started pummeling them with unarmed strikes. When they 5-ft. stepped back to shoot him he would just wail on them with his pole arm and then step in. Between him, the hydra, and the attacks coming from the boat, they were pretty harried. (Hama even managed to put one or two to sleep.)
No really, this is your example of playing smart?!? I'm sorry...but that encounter tactic was totally fubared to let you win.Using lots of question marks and explanation points doesn't make you right, or sound smart, or anything for that matter.
RD: My earlier point about ignoring the WBL still stands.I never said it didn't. Since we are not at the level where I can become a...
Okay round 1, you hide, barbarian swins, hydra in water. The archer unlease full attack hell on cleric...with his evil holy symbol we smite him. Lets assume the interatives miss that is 20d8+200ish (1d8+10 for a smithing arrow is about right...even at 1d8+6...that's assuming level 6 paladins with no strength, that 20d8+120...cleric STILL dead) damage that the cleric just took in round one. Yep, he's dead jim. The druids cast summon nature's ally, cyclops. Your archer attack back.
Round 2, archers unload on your archer...now she's dead next. Barbarian show up on shore, meets two cyclops...who uses their flash on insight to crit the barbarian twice...and now he is dead. Druid cast something
Round 3...your next.
Yeah that encounter was GIMPED. You should be dead.
Ok I'll bite..list the items you can make that give you anything on par with what the lich grants you. It must be under 240'000 total and all made with what you have at level 11 and within 6 month.
Oh and all items should be slotless items as well, just to keep it fair and on par
Okay round 1, you hide, barbarian swins, hydra in water. The archer unlease full attack hell on cleric...with his evil holy symbol we smite him. Lets assume the interatives miss that is 20d8+200ish (1d8+10 for a smithing arrow is about right...even at 1d8+6...that's assuming level 6 paladins with no strength, that 20d8+120...cleric STILL dead) damage that the cleric just took in round one. Yep, he's dead jim. The druids cast summon nature's ally, cyclops. Your archer attack back.
Round 2, archers unload on your archer...now she's dead next. Barbarian show up on shore, meets two cyclops...who uses their flash on insight to crit the barbarian twice...and now he is dead. Druid cast something
Round 3...your next.
Yeah that encounter was GIMPED. You should be dead.
Again, my fault for not providing enough info. Maybe this will clear it up.
The druids weren't in that encounter, only 5 to 10 archers.
The druids came later when we were trying to break out of their city's prison (where we stopped them and their knights/archers in a doorway). We survived the prison escape not because the GM was nice, but because we ran away (we killed the four knights, half the archers, and one of the four druids).
I've never seen the archer stats so I can't say what their strength scores and feats looked like.
Also, this all happened under v3.5 rules. We switched over mid-campaign. Smite was a lot less powerful in v3.5, was it not?
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Ya know that does not even factor in unless you have the feats, down time and spell needed to craft any item you want. you simply do not. So that I could have 240'000 gp of magic items is BSBut that's the thing. In order to become a lich, I need 120,000gp, Craft Wondrous Items, and nearly 6 months.
If I can get that, I could also choose to make that 120,000gp into 240,000gp worth of magical items INSTEAD.
If not, then I can't get a bunch of cool loot OR become a lich. Since we are doing a theoretical balance comparison, however, we ARE assuming that I WILL have the time to craft either a phylactery OR a bunch of phat loot (because otherwise the whole discussion becomes moot).
Even if the lich still comes out on top, I think I've proven that it isn't AS powerful as everyone is making it out to be once you factor in the costs and other variables.
You do realize that +2 to 3 stats that stacks with everything as an item is worth 450k right? JUST for the stat bonuses you get for becoming a lich. No really, the 120k cost doesn't even remotely cover the cost of what it take to buy the lich template with gold.
Ya know that does not even factor in unless you have the feats, down time and spell needed to craft any item you want. you simply do not. So that I could have 240'000 gp of magic items is BSBut that's the thing. In order to become a lich, I need 120,000gp, Craft Wondrous Items, and nearly 6 months.
If I can get that, I could also choose to make that 120,000gp into 240,000gp worth of magical items INSTEAD.
If not, then I can't get a bunch of cool loot OR become a lich. Since we are doing a theoretical balance comparison, however, we ARE assuming that I WILL have the time to craft either a phylactery OR a bunch of phat loot (because otherwise the whole discussion becomes moot).
Even if the lich still comes out on top, I think I've proven that it isn't AS powerful as everyone is making it out to be once you factor in the costs and other variables.
You are assuming the DM(not necessarily yours) would allow you the downtime for anything other than phylactery.
Example: A player says I want to be a lich, but I need to make the phylactery in 6 months. I might allow it. A player wants to make random magic items, probably won't be allowed to do so because he is doing it for power rather than for RP'ing reasons.
Assuming a DM will allow you to do one thing because he allowed you to do another is somewhat shaky reasoning.
I still see the lich template as a pretty big boost in power. I see the hardships as part of the payoff to get that power, and I see the player as monster guidelines as an example on how to decide how much of an LA to hand out. I did not see your character do anything other than what he had to do to get the template. You even agreed with that earlier, so why if you have done nothing extra should you not get the LA?
*As for the magic item logic while some of us might have allowed you to jump WBL for the lich template, that does not mean we would just arbitrarily let you get 240000 gp at your leisure. Allowing you to get the money at level 11( for the phylactery) would be like a reward for RP'ing not something for you to use to argue away the +2 LA assuming that is what would be handed out. It could be higher or lower in the end.
*I know I said it earlier in the same post. I just wanted to make sure it stuck.
You do realize that +2 to 3 stats that stacks with everything as an item is worth 450k right? JUST for the stat bonuses you get for becoming a lich. No really, the 120k cost doesn't even remotely cover the cost of what it take to buy the lich template with gold.
Where did you get 450k? Sounds arbitrary to me. In any case the actual monetary worth of another stackable stat boost is HIGHLY debatable.
You are assuming the DM(not necessarily yours) would allow you the downtime for anything other than phylactery.
Example: A player says I want to be a lich, but I need to make the phylactery in 6 months. I might allow it. A player wants to make random magic items, probably won't be allowed to do so because he is doing it for power rather than for RP'ing reasons.
Assuming a DM will allow you to do one thing because he allowed you to do another is somewhat shaky reasoning.
That's a good point, but it doesn't really apply here since we are only talking about a theoretical comparison anyways.
You do realize that +2 to 3 stats that stacks with everything as an item is worth 450k right? JUST for the stat bonuses you get for becoming a lich. No really, the 120k cost doesn't even remotely cover the cost of what it take to buy the lich template with gold.Where did you get 450k? Sounds arbitrary to me. In any case the actual monetary worth of another stackable stat boost is HIGHLY debatable.
He got the price off of the Tomes since they are mechanically about the same thing.
Edit: It was explained in detail in an earlier post.
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Off of the top of my head, we fought four 11th-level half-celestial druids that used Spell Compendium spells against us. They brought with them no less than ten of their high-level paladin archers. That was a single encounter.
Yeah so I missed 2 more druids who would have made that 4 cyclops to crit your barbarian into even finer mists. Your word, not mine. You keep changing your story. Even under 3.5 smite, your still goo, I would just be using 3 of the smites per day instead of one to turn your cleric to paste. But then again, I got more smites in 3.5. So yeah your still dead.
edit: Oh yeah the paladin would have needed a feat...but without that feat using the paladin as archers vs rangers or fighter is just DUMB.
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Sorry Themetricsystem, it doesn't work that way according to the RAW. The Wealth By Level table and loot handed out is accounted for at Market Cost.
Ok in researching this... I am having one he double-hockey sticks of a time finding out exactly what spellcraft DC you have to meet for ANY given magical item.
I feel like a blind puppy stumbling around at this point, can someone point me in the right direction.
Regardless this does not sound right to me at ALL, given that magical item creation basically would allow you to double your wealth given the time to create any given item.
Off of the top of my head, we fought four 11th-level half-celestial druids that used Spell Compendium spells against us. They brought with them no less than ten of their high-level paladin archers. That was a single encounter.Yeah so I missed 2 more druids who would have made that 4 cyclops to crit your barbarian into even finer mists. Your word, not mine. You keep changing your story. Even under 3.5 smite, your still goo, I would just be using 3 of the smites per day instead of one to turn your cleric to paste. But then again, I got more smites in 3.5. So yeah your still dead.
edit: Oh yeah the paladin would have needed a feat...but without that feat using the paladin as archers vs rangers or fighter is just DUMB.
They were archers because they could fly. Flying archers will usually trump a knight with a sword, tactically speaking. They were paladins because they were the holy warriors of their holier-than-though nation.
It makes perfect sense for them to exist even if they aren't super min/maxed munchkin combo warriors. :P
(Not every encounter is going to feature optimized stats or tactics, look in just about ANY module.)
EDIT: And now that I think about it, they may not have been paladins at all. They may have been regular archers. Their half celestial template probably gave them the smite.
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Sorry Themetricsystem, it doesn't work that way according to the RAW. The Wealth By Level table and loot handed out is accounted for at Market Cost.Ok in researching this... I am having one he double-hockey sticks of a time finding out exactly what spellcraft DC you have to meet for ANY given magical item.
I feel like a blind puppy stumbling around at this point, can someone point me in the right direction.
Regardless this does not sound right to me at ALL, given that magical item creation basically would allow you to double your wealth given the time to create any given item.
5+CL of the item. +5 if you rush, +5 for any req your missing the in req list.
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Off of the top of my head, we fought four 11th-level half-celestial druids that used Spell Compendium spells against us. They brought with them no less than ten of their high-level paladin archers. That was a single encounter.Yeah so I missed 2 more druids who would have made that 4 cyclops to crit your barbarian into even finer mists. Your word, not mine. You keep changing your story. Even under 3.5 smite, your still goo, I would just be using 3 of the smites per day instead of one to turn your cleric to paste. But then again, I got more smites in 3.5. So yeah your still dead.
edit: Oh yeah the paladin would have needed a feat...but without that feat using the paladin as archers vs rangers or fighter is just DUMB.
They were archers because they could fly. Flying archers will usually trump a knight with a sword. They were paladins because they were the holy warriors of their holier-than-though nation.
It makes perfect sense even if it isn't a min/maxed munchkin combo. :P
If they could fly, your even MORE dead. I fly 100 feet up and pepper the archer with arrows first...and since I can fly, there is NO cover as I just fly over you and shoot 100 feet down. You do not have the fly spell or items that grant fly...your dead. Barbarian and hydra do squat in this case. On top of 4 druids who are no longer there because your changing your story. There really is no way out of this for you at this point...you do realize this right? Your caught in changing your story already and your basically digging a bigger hole.
Sorry Themetricsystem, it doesn't work that way according to the RAW. The Wealth By Level table and loot handed out is accounted for at Market Cost.Ok in researching this... I am having one he double-hockey sticks of a time finding out exactly what spellcraft DC you have to meet for ANY given magical item.
I feel like a blind puppy stumbling around at this point, can someone point me in the right direction.
Regardless this does not sound right to me at ALL, given that magical item creation basically would allow you to double your wealth given the time to create any given item.
The DC is piddlingly low, 5 + caster level of the item. To avoid punishing PCs for keeping cool flavourful items they find instead of converting them to the most powerful items of the same market price, I houserule the check to be a minimum of 6 + your bonus, so there's always a 25% fail rate (this puts it on par roughly with 3.5 crafting f you believe that in 3.5 1XP~=5GP in value).
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The DC is piddlingly low, 5 + caster level of the item. To avoid punishing PCs for keeping cool flavourful items they find instead of converting them to the most powerful items of the same market price, I houserule the check to be a minimum of 6 + your bonus, so there's always a 25% fail rate (this puts it on par roughly with 3.5 crafting f you believe that in 3.5 1XP~=5GP in value).
So a result of 5 or less ruins the components and wastes the time. Thus effectively bumping the price of a magic item up to 75% of market price over time. I like that quite a bit in fact! But doesn't it kinda mess with the rules in terms of making cursed items?
So a result of 5 or less ruins the components and wastes the time. Thus effectively bumping the price of a magic item up to 75% of market price over time. I like that quite a bit in fact! But doesn't it kinda mess with the rules in terms of making cursed items?
The DC is piddlingly low, 5 + caster level of the item. To avoid punishing PCs for keeping cool flavourful items they find instead of converting them to the most powerful items of the same market price, I houserule the check to be a minimum of 6 + your bonus, so there's always a 25% fail rate (this puts it on par roughly with 3.5 crafting f you believe that in 3.5 1XP~=5GP in value).
In my houseruled version, a natural 1 will be cursed instead of simply wasting the materials. So far this has happened only once. The party was making two Swan Boat feather tokens to go through a swamp in Rise of the Runelords. The second one was cursed due to a natural 1 and wound up sinking part-way through, leaving the party high and dry (well rather wet actually).
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In my houseruled version, a natural 1 will be cursed instead of simply wasting the materials. So far this has happened only once. The party was making two Swan Boat feather tokens to go through a swamp in Rise of the Runelords. The second one was cursed due to a natural 1 and wound up sinking part-way through, leaving the party high and dry (well rather wet actually).
Then you roll the spellcraft checks for them behind the scenes or do you have a vet team of players? Because as it sits I only trust 2 of my 5 players to actually NOT metagame the knowledge that they rolled exceedingly low and ended up with an item anyway.
I think I very well may use this model, except instead of failing on a 2-5 and curse on a 1, I would simply keep it to 1-5 failure with a 50% chance of producing a cursed item instead.
I really like the flavor it adds to games, cursed items that is.
Of course I love messing with my players too so :D
Oh man, where did I put my +1 bane Munchkin stick. I think I just found the Munchkin king
Pfft. Sir, I am a System Hack. I once tried to convert Rifts to HERO to achieve some sort of character balance (Rifts main book only); turns out you can do most builds on 250 points, so long as equipment isn't paid for with points. I statted up the (at the time) complete character lineup of Gold Digger (comic book) for the HERO forum at one point - for kicks. I've designed spaceships for Dream Pod 9 (Jovian Chronicles Mechanical Catalog Two: Civilian Equipment and Spacecraft - go buy it, the podlings can always use the cash). I can take a system apart and put it back together again six ways from sunday - and you'll agree that it's better than it was before.
Munchkinism? Too. Damn. Easy.
If they could fly, your even MORE dead. I fly 100 feet up and pepper the archer with arrows first...and since I can fly, there is NO cover as I just fly over you and shoot 100 feet down. You do not have the fly spell or items that grant fly...your dead. Barbarian and hydra do squat in this case. On top of 4 druids who are no longer there because your changing your story. There really is no way out of this for you at this point...you do realize this right? Your caught in changing your story already and your basically digging a bigger hole.
*sighs* The boat had an enclosed cabin. Flying or not, getting total cover was easy.
You can't shoot a hydra that is underwater (total cover) and that you didn't know was there to begin with.
Also, I'm not digging any kind of hole. You are simply making assumptions left and right and I am merely correcting/clarifying things for you.
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Pfft. Sir, I am a System Hack. I once tried to convert Rifts to HERO to achieve some sort of character balance (Rifts main book only); turns out you can do most builds on 250 points, so long as equipment isn't paid for with points. I statted up the (at the time) complete character lineup of Gold Digger (comic book) for the HERO forum at one point - for kicks. I've designed spaceships for Dream Pod 9 (Jovian Chronicles Mechanical Catalog Two: Civilian Equipment and Spacecraft - go buy it, the podlings can always use the cash). I can take a system apart and put it back together again six ways from sunday - and you'll agree that it's better than it was before.Munchkinism? Too. Damn. Easy.
Isn't that kind of like being the biggest a!#$%$% in the room?
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In my houseruled version, a natural 1 will be cursed instead of simply wasting the materials. So far this has happened only once. The party was making two Swan Boat feather tokens to go through a swamp in Rise of the Runelords. The second one was cursed due to a natural 1 and wound up sinking part-way through, leaving the party high and dry (well rather wet actually).
Then you roll the spellcraft checks for them behind the scenes or do you have a vet team of players? Because as it sits I only trust 2 of my 5 players to actually NOT metagame the knowledge that they rolled exceedingly low and ended up with an item anyway.
I think I very well may use this model, except instead of failing on a 2-5 and curse on a 1, I would simply keep it to 1-5 failure with a 50% chance of producing a cursed item instead.
I really like the flavor it adds to games, cursed items that is.Of course I love messing with my players too so :D
I use a simple 1 always makes a cured item 20 makes something special rule. Forces a roll so you can't take 10 for an auto success. Also failure by 5 or more makes a cursed item as well. I roll behind the screen. The first item that the 1 trigger, it was for a wand of invis...the "curse" was that it was a wand of glitterdust. It was hilarious when it got used on the party rogue :) .
In my houseruled version, a natural 1 will be cursed instead of simply wasting the materials. So far this has happened only once. The party was making two Swan Boat feather tokens to go through a swamp in Rise of the Runelords. The second one was cursed due to a natural 1 and wound up sinking part-way through, leaving the party high and dry (well rather wet actually).
Then you roll the spellcraft checks for them behind the scenes or do you have a vet team of players? Because as it sits I only trust 2 of my 5 players to actually NOT metagame the knowledge that they rolled exceedingly low and ended up with an item anyway.
I think I very well may use this model, except instead of failing on a 2-5 and curse on a 1, I would simply keep it to 1-5 failure with a 50% chance of producing a cursed item instead.
I really like the flavor it adds to games, cursed items that is.Of course I love messing with my players too so :D
I'd recommend rolling secretly at most tables, but mine roll it themselves. When the player of the Wizard found out that he had just crafted a cursed boat, she was like "That's going to be really bad for us, I think." I do love me some cursed items, so the 50% chance is a nice alternative.
In the interest of being somewhat on topic with the two topics of this thread:
Actual main topic:
I think your friends are just messing with you RD. From the comments on the agreement and the fact that you have all played together long term and are friends, I doubt they would break that to kill you
New topic about liches and powergaming and stuff:
I think everything RD did up to this point is perfectly legitimate, though I disagree that GMs who disallow Venerable characters are engaging in Houseruling. Myself, I would allow pretty much any age category except Middle-Aged because Middle-Aged is a 1-for-1 trade-off and is a bit twinkish with odd stats. Players do have to ask me on a case-by-case basis if they are playing an older PC, but I'd probably say yes.
As to the lich thing. It obviously should have a balance mechanism on it for regular play in the Rules as Written. LA is one example of a balance system. Paizo did not want to delve into the incredible complexity of trying to balance an LA system and so didn't implement one fully, but that shouldn't in any way be read to mean that liches and other monstrous races shouldn't have any LA or similar compensation mechanism (not just an up-front gold cost) in PF. Since you said you started the game in 3.5, I imagine you were expecting at the time a +4 LA? Regardless, though I disagree on the level of an institutional policy (it is a bad general policy to allow such templates for no equivalent of an LA cost to balance them), I think that others are being too strong when they necessarily speak out against it in this case. Seems like the GM knows where she intends to go with this, and that may include free lichdom.
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If they could fly, your even MORE dead. I fly 100 feet up and pepper the archer with arrows first...and since I can fly, there is NO cover as I just fly over you and shoot 100 feet down. You do not have the fly spell or items that grant fly...your dead. Barbarian and hydra do squat in this case. On top of 4 druids who are no longer there because your changing your story. There really is no way out of this for you at this point...you do realize this right? Your caught in changing your story already and your basically digging a bigger hole.*sighs* The boat had an enclosed cabin. Flying or not, getting total cover was easy.
You can't shoot a hydra that is underwater (total cover) and that you didn't know was there to begin with.
Also, I'm not digging any kind of hole. You are simply making assumptions left and right and I am merely correcting/clarifying things for you.
Umm you specifically said that the 4 druids and archers were the SAME encounter. Now your changing it. That is not a clarification.
Enclosed cabin = full cover = nobody on your side can attack if they all hide there. Which means I get to set fire to your boat without any harry. If anyone stays above deck, they die. Then I set fire to your boat. So any other things you wanna change up? Or you wanna relent on the DM used bad tactics to let you all live? Because honestly, she did.
In my houseruled version, a natural 1 will be cursed instead of simply wasting the materials. So far this has happened only once. The party was making two Swan Boat feather tokens to go through a swamp in Rise of the Runelords. The second one was cursed due to a natural 1 and wound up sinking part-way through, leaving the party high and dry (well rather wet actually).
Then you roll the spellcraft checks for them behind the scenes or do you have a vet team of players? Because as it sits I only trust 2 of my 5 players to actually NOT metagame the knowledge that they rolled exceedingly low and ended up with an item anyway.
I think I very well may use this model, except instead of failing on a 2-5 and curse on a 1, I would simply keep it to 1-5 failure with a 50% chance of producing a cursed item instead.
I really like the flavor it adds to games, cursed items that is.Of course I love messing with my players too so :D
I'd recommend rolling secretly at most tables, but mine roll it themselves. When the player of the Wizard found out that he had just crafted a cursed boat, she was like "That's going to be really bad for us, I think." I do love me some cursed items, so the 50% chance is a nice alternative.
In the interest of being somewhat on topic with the two topics of this thread:
Actual main topic:
I think your friends are just messing with you RD. From the comments on the agreement and the fact that you have all played together long term and are friends, I doubt they would break that to kill you
New topic about liches and powergaming and stuff:
I think everything RD did up to this point is perfectly legitimate, though I disagree that GMs who disallow Venerable characters are engaging in Houseruling. Myself, I would allow pretty much any age category except Middle-Aged because Middle-Aged is a 1-for-1 trade-off and is a bit twinkish with odd stats. Players do have to ask me on a case-by-case basis if they...
RD was making his case as a general statement or at least that is how I took it. As a general statement I can't agree with him. If he was arguing it is ok for his group, that is different.
Isn't that kind of like being the biggest a@##!~# in the room?
Pfft. Sir, I am a System Hack. I once tried to convert Rifts to HERO to achieve some sort of character balance (Rifts main book only); turns out you can do most builds on 250 points, so long as equipment isn't paid for with points. I statted up the (at the time) complete character lineup of Gold Digger (comic book) for the HERO forum at one point - for kicks. I've designed spaceships for Dream Pod 9 (Jovian Chronicles Mechanical Catalog Two: Civilian Equipment and Spacecraft - go buy it, the podlings can always use the cash). I can take a system apart and put it back together again six ways from sunday - and you'll agree that it's better than it was before.Munchkinism? Too. Damn. Easy.
Nah, I just have delusions of grandeur from time to time. And a sense of humor.