So I'm thinking a minotaur for a character in a friends PFRPG game. The thing is, I didn't see any stats in the bestiary. So I'm wondering if they have been published yet or if anyone has any balanced versions of a playable minotaur race?
If not what do you think of +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha; Gore attack (d6), Natural armor +2, Large Size, +4 perception, +4 survival, and natural cunning? Too much? Any drawbacks to offer?
So I'm thinking a minotaur for a character in a friends PFRPG game. The thing is, I didn't see any stats in the bestiary. So I'm wondering if they have been published yet or if anyone has any balanced versions of a playable minotaur race?
If not what do you think of +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha; Gore attack (d6), Natural armor +2, Large Size, +4 perception, +4 survival, and natural cunning? Too much? Any drawbacks to offer?
The ability scores are Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8 which equals
Str +4
Con +2
Int -2
Cha -1
Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival
the rest is in the link
So I'm thinking a minotaur for a character in a friends PFRPG game. The thing is, I didn't see any stats in the bestiary. So I'm wondering if they have been published yet or if anyone has any balanced versions of a playable minotaur race?
If not what do you think of +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha; Gore attack (d6), Natural armor +2, Large Size, +4 perception, +4 survival, and natural cunning? Too much? Any drawbacks to offer?
The ability scores are Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8 which equals
Str +4
Con +2
Int -2
Cha -1Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival
the rest is in the link
You sir are a Success! Thank you.
The ability scores are Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8 which equalsStr +4
Con +2
Int -2
Cha -1
Umm, that would be Str +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -2 as the actual racial adjustments for a character.
What you listed are the ability bonuses gained from having those scores, not the adjustments to a character's stats :)
The ability scores are Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8 which equalsStr +4
Con +2
Int -2
Cha -1Umm, that would be Str +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -2 as the actual racial adjustments for a character.
What you listed are the ability bonuses gained from having those scores, not the adjustments to a character's stats :)
didnt even notice that....
The ability scores are Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8 which equalsStr +4
Con +2
Int -2
Cha -1Umm, that would be Str +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -2 as the actual racial adjustments for a character.
What you listed are the ability bonuses gained from having those scores, not the adjustments to a character's stats :)
Oops. I forgot the bonus was doubled. The question is why. I know you are correct because a player had one in a 3.5 campaign I ran a while back.
The minotaur was a legit ECL +8 in that game. I don't think it is in Pathfinder. More than likely its a 6 or 7.
Yeah I know ECL does not officially exist anymore.
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So I'm wondering if they have been published yet or if anyone has any balanced versions of a playable minotaur race?
My random thoughts;
1 HD - +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha, +1 Natural armor, size Medium, move 30 ft., 60 ft. darkvision, +4 to survival checks to avoid getting lost, +2 to perception checks, gore 1d4 damage
2 HD – powerful charge (x2 damage with gore attack only), +8 to survival checks to avoid getting lost, +2 NA
3 HD – powerful build, +3 NA
4 HD – +4 to all survival checks, never gets lost, immune to maze spells, +4 perception checks, +4 NA
5 HD – replace powerful build with size Large, +8 Str, +4 Con, +5 NA, gore 1d6 damage
Instead of paying full levels for these abilities (putting him 5 levels behind everyone else), perhaps he could take levels in the NPC Warrior class (or, in his case, the special 'Minotaur Warrior' class, that includes these abilities and standard NPC warrior class features), and get these abilities as he progresses.
When he reaches 'full growth,' he can start taking levels in Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, etc. as appropriate, or perhaps he can intersperse some class training in the middle, picking up a level of Barbarian for his 2nd level, for instance, and holding off full growth until his 6th character level.
I'd be inclined to allow up to half of his levels to PC levels until he reaches 'full growth,' so he could stall as long as 9th level before taking that 5th 'Minotaur Warrior' level (and becoming size large), taking his 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th and 10th+ levels in Barbarian or whatever.
If the character is intended to be a Cleric or Wizard, that would be more of an issue, obviously...
Oops. I forgot the bonus was doubled. The question is why.
Well.. Because that's how it works. The baseline stats are 11-11-11-10-10-10. To get a 19, you would have to add 8 to the baseline 11. So the Strength ability score adjustment is +8 for the character. And so on.
I think rules as PRPG for monster races are at the moment favors playing monster races a bit too much for balance purposes, while in 3.5 in most cases it was too restricting.
basically the CR guidelines should be fair enough to even them out, though in my opinion still favoring the minotaur.
a 1st level barbarian minotaur = CR 5, 6th lvl barbarian = CR 5.. not exactly fair but not every party cares about that and it evens out a bit at higher levels.
I am using a system which works fairly well, but combines several house rules and goes outside the scope of this thread.
I have a minotaur race I created for my Campaign world that is more intelligent and less bestial than the normal minotaurs. They can be found at mediafire.com/ElghinnLightbringer if you are interested.
Oops. I forgot the bonus was doubled. The question is why.Well.. Because that's how it works. The baseline stats are 11-11-11-10-10-10. To get a 19, you would have to add 8 to the baseline 11. So the Strength ability score adjustment is +8 for the character. And so on.
I was just thinking about modifier. oops.
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Your minotaur racial traits would look something like this:
Ability Modifiers: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Size: Large (10 x 10 ft.)
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (6 HD)
Speed: 30 ft.
Reach: 10 ft.
Armor Class: +5 natural armor bonus
Natural Attacks: Gore (primary attack, base 1d6 damage)
Skills: Racial Modifiers: +4 Perception, +4 Survival
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge (Gore: base 2d6 + [1.5 x Strength mod])
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Natural Cunning
You may only play such a character in a 4th-level or higher group. Your progression compared to the party's should look something like this:
6/00; 04
6/01; 05
6/02; 06
6/04; 07
6/05; 08
6/06; 09
6/08; 10
6/09; 11
6/10; 12
6/11; 13
6/12; 14
6/13; 15
6/14; 16
6/15; 17
6/16; 18
6/17; 19
6/18; 20
The left most column is you (racial HD/class levels) whereas the right most column are the class levels possessed by the more traditional members of your party. The bold areas are when you gain your "bonus levels."
Due to your 6 levels of "monstrous humanoid" you have the following base stats BEFORE class levels:
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (con x 6)
Base saves: +2 Fort, +5 Ref, +5 Will
Base Attack: +6
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons plus greataxe (regardless of class)
Skills: You have 24 ranks to assign (modified for intelligence) and you can have up to 6 ranks in any given skill. Your class skills are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
Starting Languages: Giant (with NO bonus languages for high intelligence)
When you add on class levels, you follow all the same rules for multiclassing (thus you do NOT gain max hp for your first class level since you already got it for your first racial HD). You can also start benefiting from your favored class bonuses (as you can't choose your racial type as a favored class).
That's about it I think. If you have any other questions about playing monstrous characters, feel free to let me know.
EDIT: Don't forget your size modifiers (-1 AC/attacks, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, etc.)
well in 3.5 it was one of the few races that matched up fairly well with the other characters from the core book, playable at ECL +8.
In pathfinder it has ECL +4 at first going down to ECL +2 at 10th level effectively, in my judgement a bit too good for fair balance, it is the basic dirty rules we have at the moment though.
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Ability Modifiers: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Armor Class: +5 natural armor bonusYou may only play such a character in a 4th-level or higher group. Your progression compared to the party's should look something like this:
6/00; 04
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (con x 6)
Base saves: +2 Fort, +5 Ref, +5 Will
Base Attack: +6
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons plus greataxe (regardless of class)
Why 4th-level party?
Honestly, I don't think the above is on-par with a 4th level fighter :-/It seems as it could get toe-to-toe with a 7th or 8th level fighter... :-m
BTW, I think you missed the feats...
Ability Modifiers: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Armor Class: +5 natural armor bonusYou may only play such a character in a 4th-level or higher group. Your progression compared to the party's should look something like this:
6/00; 04
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (con x 6)
Base saves: +2 Fort, +5 Ref, +5 Will
Base Attack: +6
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons plus greataxe (regardless of class)
Why 4th-level party?
Honestly, I don't think the above is on-par with a 4th level fighter :-/
It seems as it could get toe-to-toe with a 7th or 8th level fighter... :-mBTW, I think you missed the feats...
Actually... now that I look at it again for Core PF that 'does' seem a little overpowered... treat it as a 6th level character maybe? (one of those rare cases where the creature's hit dice seems like a reasonable line to draw)
Over time the natural armor would become less valuable though, so keep the 2 level buyoff at X progression (every 4 levels or whatever)
Well roughly in a 4th lvl party.
It will attack with +11/+6 for 3d6+15(x3) or +11/+6 3d6+12(x3) and +6 1d6+10 damage, with reach
AC 18
HP 67 (average 67.5)
F+6 R +6 W +5
perception 6 ranks(+12), intimidate 6 ranks(+10), climb 1 rank(+10), swim 1 rank(+10), survival 4 ranks(+10)
str 23 dex 13 con 18 int 8 wis 8 cha 9
(base scores 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 8)
mw great axe, mw studded leather
CMB +13, CMD +24
sample feats: power attack, weapon focus(great axe), toughness
feel free to stat up a 4th lvl fighter for comparison, keep in mind I haven't used any fancy gear, relatively low stats and next level will probably be barbarian with heavy armor proficiency.
I think it is better to rate monster characters on CR. So this minotaur would be welcome in a 5th level party, even though the usual (CR4) minotaur is not an elite creature..
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It will attack with +11/+6 for 3d6+15(x3) or +11/+6 3d6+12(x3) and +6 1d6+10 damage, with reach
AC 18
HP 67 (average 67.5)
F+6 R +6 W +5str 23 dex 13 con 18 int 8 wis 8 cha 9
(base scores 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 8)mw great axe, mw studded leather
CMB +13, CMD +24
sample feats: power attack, weapon focus(great axe), toughness
Sample Fighter 6
It will power attack with +10/+5 for 1d12+15(x3)
AC 15
HP 59
F+7 R +5 W +4
str 18 dex 13 con 14 int 12 wis 11 cha 8
(base scores 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 8)
mw great axe, mw studded leather
CMB +10, CMD +22
sample feats: power attack, weapon focus(great axe), toughness, Lunge, weapon specialization(great axe), lightning reflexes, iron will, cleave
I still think the minotaur would beat the crap out of him ;-P
You do realize a level 6 Fighter should have a +1 armor by than. Or at least a +1 weapon.
Remember Larger weapon/armor cost double for Mr. Minotaur.
You do realize a level 6 Fighter should have a +1 armor by than. Or at least a +1 weapon.
Remember Larger weapon/armor cost double for Mr. Minotaur.
A 6th-level fighter would also have 6 more ranks or 6 more hit point from its favored class levels as well as racial ability modifiers that don't include huge penalties. I also think a minotaur loses almost as much as it gains (and the net gain balances out with others' class abilities fairly well).
The minotaur is given the same amount of starting funds as the other characters. Thus, if everyone is 4th-level, then each character (including the possibly unbalanced minotaur) starts with 6,000gp. What people do with that money can make a big difference.
The rules I provided above strictly follow the official monster PC guidelines as presented in the Bestiary, though like magical item creation, the guidelines are only the first step (the second step is comparison).
Also, I didn't forget the feats. They are included in the "treat as though multiclassing" step.
You do realize a level 6 Fighter should have a +1 armor by than. Or at least a +1 weapon.
Remember Larger weapon/armor cost double for Mr. Minotaur.
Since they travel together this is rather inconsequential, they both get the same gold for equipment the base armor costs more, which will be increasingly less relevant enchantments will cost the same, the minotaur has mw studded leather, give the fighter mw fullplate.
The fighter would be proficient with heavy armor though.. I gave the minotaur studded leather because he isn't proficient with armor yet.
hp should be 61 on average, Ac 19 dmg would be 1d12+15(x3),+11/+6 minotaur is still better.. I can see how a fighter 8 could still get owned by a 1st level minotaur though. However according to the RAW the minotaur would be lvl 5 when the fighter is lvl 8. The minotaur would dominate every fight.
based on CR it is a little less bad, fighter 8 = CR 7 = minotaur fighter 3
Based on CR it is a little less bad, fighter 8 = CR 7 = minotaur fighter 3
Isn't a minotaur fighter 3 CR 6, not 7?
no it isn't, every associated class level increases CR by 1, non-associated by 1/2 (up to a number equal to the base CR).
no it isn't, every associated class level increases CR by 1, non-associated by 1/2 (up to a number equal to the base CR).
Huh, I figured you just tacked on the CR for the classes.
For example, an 6th-level fighter is CR 5.
A minotaur 6th-level fighter would be CR 9 (Base CR 4 for being a minotaur + CR 5 for the fighter levels).
I guess that's not how it goes though. *does more research*
EDIT: I guess you're right.
Step 3: Determine CR
Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels
requires careful consideration. While adding a class level
to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and
role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding
classes that do not stack is more complicated.
Table 2–4 gives general guidelines regarding which
core classes add directly to a monster’s abilities based
on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add
1 to a creature’s CR for each level added. Classes marked
with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class
levels added until the number of levels added are equal
to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point
they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s
CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple
roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the
class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never
considered key.
pasted it for you