We are not talking about a setting where spellcasters are unavailable for PC, nor where only the high king can hope to possess a +1 longsword. What I propose is for the community to work together and create a guide for DMs and players alike that wish to use the Pathfinder RPG rules but play in a setting were magic is slightly less omnipresent, magical items less available and casters less common in the world at large than the default PF/D&D settings.
Using the Pathfinder rules to play in a low magic setting already spilled a lot of virtual ink, and several issues (and some solutions) have been posted throughout several different threads. In this thread, I invite the community to gather the pertinent information in the attempt to create a semi-official guide to the lower magic setting; what issues one might expect, what solutions are offered with minimal alterations to the rules and perhaps most importantly, what constitutes a 'lower magic setting'.
In the first stage of this project, the community is invited to post their experience/balance issues/solutions, perhaps linking pertinent threads along this subject. Throughout the summer, this project should develop into something more tangible, perhaps something along the line of an Unearthed Arcana geared toward the reduction of magic in a game.
If that is of any interest to you post away!
'findel
I think the biggest catch here and one that has caused a dozen or so threads is what to do to maintain balance when magic items become very rare. Some low magic dms intend to make things deliberately 'harder' on the pcs, but most dont want that. They just dont want their pc's lit up like christmas trees.
There is certainly a power shift. My recommendation is to replace magical bonuses, particularly the 'big six' with inherant bonuses that characters get.
My favorite came a while back in the 'removing 'neccesary magic items'. Quoted Bellow:
My suggestion would be to drop all the items that provide flat enhancements to statistics armor bonus, shield bonus, natural armor, attacks/damage, and saves, replacing them with the following:
Heroic Distinctions:
True heroes are far from static, realizing great power as they come into their own. Starting at 3rd level, each character gains one heroic distinction every level. Unless otherwise noted, a character cannot select an individual distinction more than once.Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.
Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.
Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.
Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.
Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.
Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.
Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.
Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.
Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.
Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.
Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.
Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.
Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.
Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.
Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.
To go with this i would not allow enhancement and training bonuses to stack. And along with that I would remove the requirement of +1 to magic weapons and armor. That way when you do decide to drop that or other magic items, it can be purely flavorful rather then the typical +x item.
I think if you replace the 'big six' low magic in terms of items no longer becomes a balance issue, and is purely a matter of the flavor of your campaign.
The other issue I see is with 'overt' magic. Assuming you dont restrict players from being casters, how do you make sense of the lack of magic in the world, or how to be people react to a primary caster. Do you take action to limit primary casters?
I am actually looking into this myself as I plan on running a game (my next campaign) in the world of the dark tower series. Where while there are casters, they are far more limited then what is presented in the pathfinder rules. How does one make this fit flavor wise without simply punishing caster PC casters?
I am still working on this but my thoughts are 2 fold. Be upfront with the players and make it known that direct and obvious displays of magic are not going to be well recieved by normal folk. Most players of heroic pc's dont want their character's hunted as a heretic.
Alternatively you can limit what magic is available. Maybe some of the flashier schools of magic dont exist in this world? In my world for flavor reasons I plan on removing the evocation and conjuration schools but leaving the others in tact. It works for my setting at least, but I dont think it is useful for everyone. But the idea of limiting magic by school may be helpful in general.
The other issue I see is with 'overt' magic. Assuming you dont restrict players from being casters, how do you make sense of the lack of magic in the world, or how to be people react to a primary caster. Do you take action to limit primary casters?
Personally, I wouldn't restrict access to casters, but I do intend on including non-spellcasting versions of the ranger and paladin in the guide.
As for the rest of the world, I wouldn't consider magic to be non-existing in a 'lower magic' setting. Only, it would be too rare, too expensive or too taxing to provide a practical solution to most civil problems; magic would mostly benefit small groups of individuals, such as PCs and villains.
Primary casters should be revered with a mixture of fear, envy and respect, but so should primary melee characters ideally. At this point, I think part of this is accepting that PCs and main NPCs are special characters. that distinguish themselves from the mass early on in their career.
Alternatively you can limit what magic is available. Maybe some of the flashier schools of magic dont exist in this world? In my world for flavor reasons I plan on removing the evocation and conjuration schools but leaving the others in tact. It works for my setting at least, but I dont think it is useful for everyone. But the idea of limiting magic by school may be helpful in general.
Yes, I'm not discarding such options, but I'd like to create something that's VERY close to Pathfinder core rules, least another game fit the genre better. Certainly, a few spells should be discouraged (or bump to 1st level), but the concept of magic as Pathfinder knows it should remain more or less intact. It would be more like banning half a dozen cards in a Magic: the Gathering tournament as opposed to forbid playing red and black...
Personally, I wouldn't restrict access to casters, but I do intend on including non-spellcasting versions of the ranger and paladin in the guide.
As for the rest of the world, I wouldn't consider magic to be non-existing in a 'lower magic' setting. Only, it would be too rare, too expensive or too taxing to provide a practical solution to most civil problems; magic would mostly benefit small groups of individuals, such as PCs and villains.
But how do you make magic impractical without being overly limiting to a caster character? That is a balance I have never seen done right. If you simply handwave that very few people in your world are able to become casters thats fine, but it does nothing to limit the actions of the pc's actions, which some people want in a low magic setting. (Think clerics flooding the desert with create water for instance)
Primary casters should be revered with a mixture of fear, envy and respect, but so should primary melee characters ideally. At this point, I think part of this is accepting that PCs and main NPCs are special characters. that distinguish themselves from the mass early on in their career.
Its ok for them to be special, but that means that you very quickly remove NPCs from the equation as opponents. If such characters are exteremly rare the big bad has very few minions, and as the players both level up and KILL these minions, you are left with your challenges needing to be more and more monster based exclusively.
Yes, I'm not discarding such options, but I'd like to create something that's VERY close to Pathfinder core rules, least another game fit the genre better. Certainly, a few spells should be discouraged (or bump to 1st level), but the concept of magic as Pathfinder knows it should remain more or less intact. It would be more like banning half a dozen cards in a Magic: the Gathering tournament as opposed to forbid playing red and black...
Discouraging a few spells to keep a low magic setting is damn near impossible. So many spells have so many uses. There are lots of spells, particularly if you allow 3rd party or 3.5 material. To adequately predict how your players will use their spells you would actually need to have magic powers in the first place.
(...)impractical magic(...)But how do you make magic impractical without being overly limiting to a caster character? That is a balance I have never seen done right. If you simply handwave that very few people in your world are able to become casters thats fine, but it does nothing to limit the actions of the pc's actions, which some people want in a low magic setting. (Think clerics flooding the desert with create water for instance)
Well, I have several ideas, but I'm not sure which approach to take yet. At any case, its not about limiting casters to PCs, nor going from 100 wizards to 2 or 3. Its about trying to figure out how many spellcasters there need to be in order to dial the magic level of the campaign one notch or two. If the default magic level of a game is somewhere between 7 and 8 (on a scale of 10), how many of these casters do you need to bring it down to 5 or 6. Perhaps the answer is 'the same amount'.
As for PCs, I'm not aiming to diminish their spellcasting prowess; it about the rest of the world that my main concern lies (and yes, I definitively have clerics flooding the desert with create water in mind here). I'm interested to create a setting were the walls of a castle are an efficient architectural and military feature. Where sailboats are still a cheaper alternative to teleporting circles. Where burglars are skillful rogues as opposed to invisible rogues etc.
I have some solutions to offer, but I'm genuinely interested in what the community has to say about this 'in between low fantasy and high fantasy' setting.
Admittedly, I just say that most NPC's have NPC levels, and that the PC classes are few and far between. And I just do it through fiat. The reason there are not NPC clerics flooding deserts or teleport circles for hire is that there are just not enough in the WHOLE WORLD to do that.
...and that's the kind of things I like to include in the guide, but with some more precise guidelines so DMs that want to play this does not have to DM-fiat it; its how the setting suggests it to be.
Admittedly, I just say that most NPC's have NPC levels, and that the PC classes are few and far between. And I just do it through fiat. The reason there are not NPC clerics flooding deserts or teleport circles for hire is that there are just not enough in the WHOLE WORLD to do that....and that's the kind of things I like to include in the guide, but with some more precise guidelines so DMs that want to play this does not have to DM-fiat it; its how the setting suggests it to be.
So you are looking less for 'rules' and more for campaign guidelines is that correct?
So you are looking less for 'rules' and more for campaign guidelines is that correct?
Definitively more a campaign guide, but some alternate rules might be required, or simply welcome.
For example if (for whatever reasons) the guide suggests "no stat boosting items are available because balablabla", perhaps an alternate rule could allow PCs to increase their stats in other ways, not unlike the heroic distinctions that you posted above. If not, PCs will fall behind the expected power curve and even if, lets say, this is not an issue in itself, a section of the guide should address how to regulate the challenges and encounters in consequence.
I also would like a better name than 'slightly lower magic setting'. Seriously, it stinks but that's all I've got for the moment...
Have you ever checked out Iron Heroes? This may give you a lot of great ideas.
Have you ever read Raymond Feist's Midkemia novels?
That is a lower magic world, very few mages.
Magical items becoming a rare rare thing is easy IMO. Just remove them/make their apperance so few and far between that they're non existant.
Now the way to keep charecters balanced in BAB/AC progression is Weapon customization. Rather then spend 2000gp on an enchantment to the weapon. Spend the funds to upgrade quality, grip, etc.
The blades are not "magical", but a "master smith" can spend some time tailor making the weapon to fit the hand, or custom fitting the armor to increase it's ability with that user. They pay to train that weapon with a "Weapons Master" to increase their knowledge of that individual weapon, or you can give them a blanket + to wepons of the type ie. Longsword, Long Bow, etc. Not weapon types.
Name the weapons, and rule that the craftsman ship is so good that in the hands of a proficient indivdual the weapon works at a + 1 less than the item. BobBane the +2 Longsword of Dude McCool is a +1 Longsword in the hands of Cool McDude. Eldathal the +1 Longbow of Elfy McPointiear would just be a Mwk Longbow in the hands of Bob
Now to avoid a cleric flooding a desert issue is just don't let it happen. Impart to them that their spells are the blessing of their god and if they're trying to do something the god wouldn't approve of the spell fails.
To avoid magic users flooding the market with magical goods... there is no market for such items, so there are few buyers and the legwork to find one is insanely hard.
I intend to use this system here for a campaign that begins later this month. With it I intend to eliminate the need for Big 6 and other items as well. And make the most heroic characters in relation to their peers in the race.
>>> Heroic Attributes Bonus and Mighty Defense.
Some adjustments will probably need to be made and are welcome.
Mighty Defense Bonus for example. Discourages the use of shields. Because now they just add 1, 2 or 4 in the AC. However. Like the weapons. You are more encouraged to have a shield with a legal ability instead of a simple and inexpensive +1.
I would like opinions on this scheme and what the chances of crashing the system at high levels.
Also, English is not my first language, so corrections are wanted and welcome.
I post it in this thread.