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Or modify the scenario to give the monsters Darkvision and now there is no "dim" lighting or "shadowy area" within 60' of those monsters. Neither the rogue nor the shadowdancer can hide within the range of that darvision, so neither one of them will be sneak attacking.
This isn't true for the Shadowdancers (Su)HiPS. It doesn't matter if your enemy has darkvision, only if there is Dim Light w/in 10 feet of you. It's not dependant on the observer. This is well established from 3.5.
Or modify the scenario to give the monsters Darkvision and now there is no "dim" lighting or "shadowy area" within 60' of those monsters. Neither the rogue nor the shadowdancer can hide within the range of that darvision, so neither one of them will be sneak attacking.This isn't true for the Shadowdancers (Su)HiPS. It doesn't matter if your enemy has darkvision, only if there is Dim Light w/in 10 feet of you. It's not dependant on the observer. This is well established from 3.5.
Which is a nice side benefit of HiPS. You ability to stealth isn't automatically negated by darkvision.
Or modify the scenario to give the monsters Darkvision and now there is no "dim" lighting or "shadowy area" within 60' of those monsters.
Dim light is always exactly where it used to be. Dim light is not relative based on the monsters, it is constant based on the illumination. Just because they can see in the dark only means HiPS is necessary to hide there as opposed to being able to hide in dim light anyway.
Or modify the scenario to give the monsters Darkvision and now there is no "dim" lighting or "shadowy area" within 60' of those monsters. Neither the rogue nor the shadowdancer can hide within the range of that darvision, so neither one of them will be sneak attacking.This isn't true for the Shadowdancers (Su)HiPS. It doesn't matter if your enemy has darkvision, only if there is Dim Light w/in 10 feet of you. It's not dependant on the observer. This is well established from 3.5.
Fixed.
I had never considered the ability to be "vanish in plain sight near shadows", and I have never had occasion to use it, either for players or bad guys, so I had never considered the (Su) nature of HiPS.
Good to know.
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Other than the rules nitpick, DM_Blake I agree with you. HiPS is useless if a normal rogue can spring attack from shadows as in your earlier example.
With a Shadowdancer or Ranger (yikes), I still think that allowing HiPS to be used before and after the attack to be too much even for this very good ability. It basically mimics a Greater Invis that you can ready against. I think its a great ability to use against creatures that can See Invisibility or to get a sneak attack in w/out flanking long after the suprise round is long past, but not round in, round out.
--Vrockslide
You can be hidden from last round, but once you move again you must make the check, or actually the GM makes the check. You don't get to do it again after you attack. You have to make a check each move action you take, just like Climb. Your last check is fine if you don't move again.
--Vrocky Road
Where does it state this?
Um... Ravingdork... I'm sure this is probably just an example of differing playstyles, but I think it SHOULD beat normal invisibility. It's an ability one can't get until 8th level at least (wizard's have already had greater invisibility for a level), AND it's dependent on beating an opposed skill check.
Any class can access it ny 6th-level if they wanted (and for only a single level dip!).
Reading the posts, it seems like people are pretty confident that HiPS only prevents automatic detection versus normal senses, but not against special senses (e.g. scent, tremorsense, blindsight/sense). is this actually RAW? HiPS allows stealth checks even when being observed. Wouldn't other senses also fall under "being observed"? I don't see anything in the HiPS description to actually limit it to normal senses.
the HiPS description is frustrating because it is so vague, and the wording seems to imply that it operates by creating a kind of visual concealment, even though this isn't actually stated directly. I suspect this is why there are many threads debating without any obvious resolution whether it works vs darkvision, true sight, etc.
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Reading the posts, it seems like people are pretty confident that HiPS only prevents automatic detection versus normal senses, but not against special senses (e.g. scent, tremorsense, blindsight/sense). is this actually RAW? HiPS allows stealth checks even when being observed. Wouldn't other senses also fall under "being observed"? I don't see anything in the HiPS description to actually limit it to normal senses.
the HiPS description is frustrating because it is so vague, and the wording seems to imply that it operates by creating a kind of visual concealment, even though this isn't actually stated directly. I suspect this is why there are many threads debating without any obvious resolution whether it works vs darkvision, true sight, etc.
It's a supernatural ability. A vague one at that. Really hinges on what the GM defines as "Observed". Depending on whether you're considering it as a pseudo invisibility or as pseudo etherealness-with-respect-to-observers.
My old group always cut the line like this: It's supernatural. That means that ex abilities can't sense you. IE blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense don't work. Supernatural, spell like, and spells can strip the benefits HiPS. For example true seeing specifically states it only helps vs magical concealment and the like. If you HiPS, but could be stealthing without it, you still get to make stealth checks vs a character with true seeing. Step into the normal light and suddenly you can't make stealth checks against the true seeing Mob anymore.
Note this is pretty much the definition of RAI. RAW is extremely unclear here. This is the best we could come up with that made sense with the rest of the system as far as we'd been able to find. New group after moving away hasn't run into HiPS yet so it hasn't come up.
A spellcaster may ready a glitterdust or Faerie Fire for him as well. That will cook his goose.
This. Or a daylight spell.
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Any class can access it ny 6th-level if they wanted (and for only a single level dip!).
Casters can't. At 6th they only have BAB +3. Spring attack requires +4.
Dipping into a level is a huge drawback. I'll grant it's one of the better single level dips remaining in Pathfinder from 3.5, but in general the shadowdancer is an extremely weak class.
shadowdancer makes a worthwhile 2 level dip as well. assuming you are human. but i wouldn't invest more than 2 levels in it.
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shadowdancer makes a worthwhile 2 level dip as well. assuming you are human. but i wouldn't invest more than 2 levels in it.
That's true. Darkvision and Evasion and Uncanny dodge are pretty huge buffs for anyone.
Still, levels 3-9 are indeed really terrible. Shadowdancers should either recieve 3d6 worth of sneak attack in their progression or should get more potent shadow spells. (IE shadow school is more than 20% real.)
Yes, level 2 spells should be able to supercede all supernatural abilities from PrCs.
Why the hell does anyone play anything but casters if that's your philosophy? Really? Only casters are allowed to have cool things? Christ.
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Yes, level 2 spells should be able to supercede all supernatural abilities from PrCs.
Why the hell does anyone play anything but casters if that's your philosophy? Really? Only casters are allowed to have cool things? Christ.
True seeing is a 6th level spell with a 250 gp material component. Yes, it supercedes your supernatural concealment. It specifically states in the spell that this is what true seeing does.
See invisibility is the 2nd level version and we never let it do squat vs HiPS.
EDIT: Nevermind, mistook that to be directed at me.
Yes, level 2 spells should be able to supercede all supernatural abilities from PrCs.
Why the hell does anyone play anything but casters if that's your philosophy? Really? Only casters are allowed to have cool things? Christ.
Um, true seeing is a 6th level spell with a 250 gp material component. Yes, it supercedes your supernatural concealment. It specifically states in the spell that this is what true seeing does.
One of these days I'm going to make an RTFS (Read the ****ing spell) shirt.
See invisibility is the 2nd level version and doesn't do squat vs HiPS.
...Uh, I'm referring to his comment that HiPS shouldn't be as powerful as Invisibility.
I don't think either spell would do anything VS HiPS. Using the stealth skill is mundane and not affected by magic.
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I don't think either spell would do anything VS HiPS. Using the stealth skill is mundane and not affected by magic.
Doesn't remove the effect of the stealth skill. Does remove the effect of the supernatural shadow allowing you use of the stealth skill where you otherwise would be unable to, IE outside of cover/concealment in normal or bright light.
If the shadowdancer is in a place any normal person could make a stealth check, true seeing does nothing. Effectively true seeing simply removes HiPS, not stealth.
This would be different were HiPS not supernatural as true seeing makes a very specific exception for non-magical deceptions. Extraordinary abilities remain unaffected by true sight regardless of what they do.
I don't think either spell would do anything VS HiPS. Using the stealth skill is mundane and not affected by magic.Doesn't remove the effect of the stealth skill. Does remove the effect of the supernatural shadow allowing you use of the stealth skill where you otherwise would be unable to, IE outside of cover/concealment in normal or bright light.
If the shadowdancer is in a place any normal person could make a stealth check, true seeing does nothing. Effectively true seeing simply removes HiPS, not stealth.
This would be different were HiPS not supernatural as true seeing makes a very specific exception for non-magical deceptions. Extraordinary abilities remain unaffected by true sight regardless of what they do.
The moment you show me where the rules say supernatural shadows are are involved I will happily agree with you. Until then...
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The moment you show me where the rules say supernatural shadows are are involved I will happily agree with you. Until then...
From the core rulebook:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth
skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10
feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself
from view in the open without anything to actually hide
behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability. The dim light itself? not supernatural. The concealment the players draw from being near the dim light is very much supernatural. You can't HiPS in an antimagic field.
The moment you show me where the rules say supernatural shadows are are involved I will happily agree with you. Until then...From the core rulebook:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth
skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10
feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself
from view in the open without anything to actually hide
behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability. The dim light itself? not supernatural. The concealment the players draw from being near the dim light is very much supernatural. You can't HiPS in an antimagic field.
That doesn't mean they are hiding in "magical shadows."
Sure it's supernatural in nature, but no where does it say it is illusory. I looked up True Seeing and I don't see anything on its "defeat list" that would apply to HiPS.
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That doesn't mean they are hiding in "magical shadows."
Sure it's supernatural in nature, but no where does it say it is illusory. I looked up True Seeing and I don't see anything on its "defeat list" that would apply to HiPS.
Shadows aren't actually where the player is if they're outside the dim light. Their supernatural effect is allowing them to act as if they were within the dim light. They are not. Without their supernatural ability they are now subject to a DC 0 perception check to be seen.
HiPS is a supernatural effect that alters what would be happening were no supernatural effect going on. True seeing clearly states it shows things as they would be if everything was mundane. Effectively, it's antimagic sight.
Edit: I clearly stated earlier this is a RAI patch to a RAW grey area. If you are making an RAI call that you can't true seeing a shadow, then that's no more or less valid, really. RAW is incredibly vague here.
Imagine a room with some dim light, a couple torches here and there. And some monsters fighting some PCs.
An oridinary rogue can hide in the shadowy area because it gives him concealment (20% miss chance and allows the use of Stealth).
I'm not sure that you can use Stealth in dim light if the monsters are observing you. "If people are observing you, you can not use stealth."
Sure, rules say that "[...] finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth." But I think both points must be applied. If you succeed in create a diversion to hide and you are in dim light, then you can use Stealth. Hide in Plain Sight allows you to hide in (or near) dim light while observed.I'm not sure if a monster with darkvision can see a character using Hide in Plain Sight. It is a supernatural ability, so I guess this is not an ordinary hide. What do you think?
Yes, level 2 spells should be able to supercede all supernatural abilities from PrCs.
Why the hell does anyone play anything but casters if that's your philosophy? Really? Only casters are allowed to have cool things? Christ.
True seeing is a 6th level spell with a 250 gp material component. Yes, it supercedes your supernatural concealment. It specifically states in the spell that this is what true seeing does.
See invisibility is the 2nd level version and we never let it do squat vs HiPS.
EDIT: Nevermind, mistook that to be directed at me.
Aimed at you or not, you are wrong.
You are not supernaturally concealed, you are supernaturally activating the basic stealth skill when you otherwise couldn't.
Actually, the fact that the subject sees through normal and magical darkness when true seeing is up pretty much trumps the magic/nonmagic argument. You can magically cut through all darkness both mundane and magical. This hits either of our interperetations.
No, it doesn't.
Darkvision can see through mundane darkness. Low-Light vision makes relative dim light seem further out. You can still HiPS in 10 feet away from static dim light while both an Orc and Elf are looking at you.
hides in plain sight
That doesn't mean they are hiding in "magical shadows."Sure it's supernatural in nature, but no where does it say it is illusory. I looked up True Seeing and I don't see anything on its "defeat list" that would apply to HiPS.
The way I understand it, is that Shadowdancer is standing 10' away from a shadowy area. He uses his supernatural ability to "grab" the shadows 10' away from him and wrap them around him--extending the shadows.
The shadows themselves are not magical (hence why abilities like True Seeing doesn't work on them--the shadows ARE really there), but the Shadowdancer's ability to manipulate them is (hence why a Shadowdancer's HIPS doesn't work in an antimagic field).
Yes, this is interpretive, not in the written out explicitly in the rules somewhere. I think this and similar conversations have made it clear that there is no clear RAW anywhere to guide you. You're going to have to work with what you've got.
Now, all due respect, RavingDork, but please remember you came in here saying, "HIPS is too powerful, help!!!"
And a lot of people have politely suggested maybe one of the reasons why it's ending up being too powerful in your game is because you're interpreting the relevant rules rather generously in the Shadowdancer's favor.
And in response, you have, effectively and in so many words, replied to the people whose help you asked for, "You're WRONG! Stop helping!"
Feel free to continue to interpret the stealth and HIPS rules as you choose, as that's absolutely your right as a GM. But understand that as long as you do so, the Shadowdancer will continue to dominate in your game. If you're willing to accept those consequences because you're convinced of your interpretation of the rules, good luck and happy gaming. :) I hope in that case, the other suggestions and tactics offered to you remain useful.
Reading the posts, it seems like people are pretty confident that HiPS only prevents automatic detection versus normal senses, but not against special senses (e.g. scent, tremorsense, blindsight/sense). is this actually RAW? HiPS allows stealth checks even when being observed. Wouldn't other senses also fall under "being observed"? I don't see anything in the HiPS description to actually limit it to normal senses.
You need to look at the descriptions of the senses. Both the descriptions of Blindsense and Blindsight contain this phrase:
The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability.
Perception is what counters Stealth checks. HIPS allows you to supernaturally make Stealth checks when others couldn't, but it's still just a Stealth check, which requires Perception to bypass (the reason why Shadowdancers are so frustrating is that good Shadowdancer builds have such a high Stealth, all but the most specialized builds will not have Perception high enough to penetrate).
Logically, abilities that negate the need to make a Perception check to notice creatures automatically bypass Stealth. Hence, HIPS has no effect against creatures with these abilities.
With Tremorsense, a creature with that ability
can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.
A creature with Tremorsense will not automatically see the Shadowdancer (he will have concealment) but will know exactly where the Shadowdancer is standing, provided the Shadowdancer is standing on the ground within range of the creature's Tremorsense (a clever Shadowdancer might jump into a tree or onto the ceiling).
My personal view is that common sense would also dictate that these abilities work anyway, even if the rules weren't available.
A creature with Tremorsense will not automatically see the Shadowdancer (he will have concealment) but will know exactly where the Shadowdancer is standing, provided the Shadowdancer is standing on the ground within range of the creature's Tremorsense (a clever Shadowdancer might jump into a tree or onto the ceiling).
Except if you look under the perception skill.
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
I take that to mean If you are touching the ground then.... If you are within the tremorsense range, they automatically pass perception checks against you. If you are outside the tremorsense range, they get a +8 to perception checks.
A creature with Tremorsense will not automatically see the Shadowdancer (he will have concealment) but will know exactly where the Shadowdancer is standing, provided the Shadowdancer is standing on the ground within range of the creature's Tremorsense (a clever Shadowdancer might jump into a tree or onto the ceiling).
Except if you look under the perception skill.
I take that to mean If you are touching the ground then.... If you are within the tremorsense range, they automatically pass perception checks against you. If you are outside the tremorsense range, they get a +8 to perception checks.
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Thank you.
I think the real problem with the Perception and Stealth rules is that they are scattered all over the place.
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shadowdancer makes a worthwhile 2 level dip as well. assuming you are human. but i wouldn't invest more than 2 levels in it.That's funny as I see the shadow companion as one of the strongest of the class abilities the shadowdancer is given.
-James
The shadow thing is a personal abhorrence of mine. I hate pets. But yes, it's a really good ability.
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Aimed at you or not, you are wrong.
You are not supernaturally concealed, you are supernaturally activating the basic stealth skill when you otherwise couldn't.
No, it specifically calls out HiPS as supernatural. True sight sees through HiPS. It does not see through stealth. True sight effectively negates the class feature.
No, it specifically calls out HiPS as supernatural. True sight sees through HiPS. It does not see through stealth. True sight effectively negates the class feature.Aimed at you or not, you are wrong.
You are not supernaturally concealed, you are supernaturally activating the basic stealth skill when you otherwise couldn't.
Nope, sorry. Supernatural just means it requires magic to function.
From the SRD:
"You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extra-dimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance."
HiPS is none of these things, thus by the RAW True seeing does not negate HiPS.
Looking through that... I can see where you're getting that, and I think you're right. Guess I better put that down on the houserule list. Wizard needs a way to prepare against HiPS.
Light, Daylight, etc. Anything that gets rid of shadows will negate HiPS.
Looking through that... I can see where you're getting that, and I think you're right. Guess I better put that down on the houserule list. Wizard needs a way to prepare against HiPS.
A quickened Glitterdust would be more than enough, and one level lower.
Logically, abilities that negate the need to make a Perception check to notice creatures automatically bypass Stealth. Hence, HIPS has no effect against creatures with these abilities.
Thanks, but it still isn't obvious to me. Aren't creatures in plain sight automatically perceived by individuals with normal senses without the need for perception checks? Cover or concealment is normally what allows stealth checks. As I read the special senses rules, it seems that they are just indicating that normal concealment doesn't allow stealth checks, as the special senses aren't visual (as far as I am aware, non-visual cover/concealment has yet to be defined other than silence and strong smells). HiPS is a Su ability that allows such checks even when they shouldn't be allowed.
I tend to agree with your RAI interpretation of the mechanic of the Su version of HiPS (recruiting shadows, or something). the trouble is that if this is the way that it works, true seeing should be effective as it negates all "normal and magical darkness".
EDIT: I guess the point I am trying to make is that special senses should only be immune to HiPS if HiPS is strictly visual in nature. If that is the case, I think True Seeing should work, RAI. Otherwise, HiPS should work against all types of senses.
Logically, abilities that negate the need to make a Perception check to notice creatures automatically bypass Stealth. Hence, HIPS has no effect against creatures with these abilities.Thanks, but it still isn't obvious to me. Aren't creatures in plain sight automatically perceived by individuals with normal senses without the need for perception checks?
No, not automatically, but a creature with no concealment has an effective stealth of 0 + situational modifiers, so the DC to see someone out in the open is very easy to make.
For example, you are trying to spot a sniper standing out in the open(DC 0) who is 100 feet away(+10 DC) with the sun in your face(+2 DC for unfavorable condition) and you are distracted(+5 DC) because of the combat going on. The DC is 17.
Cover or concealment is normally what allows stealth checks. As I read the special senses rules, it seems that they are just indicating that normal concealment doesn't allow stealth checks, as the special senses aren't visual (as far as I am aware, non-visual cover/concealment has yet to be defined other than silence and strong smells). HiPS is a Su ability that allows such checks even when they shouldn't be allowed.
Silence automatically prevents any sounds based checks. Strong smells would count as an unfavorable condition(+2 DC).
Some of the special senses(blindsight and tremorsense) allow the creature to automatically pass perception checks under certain conditions. This means that they will automatically beat the HiPS character's stealth check no matter what. If they beat the check, then the HiPS character is no longer hidden to them.
I tend to agree with your RAI interpretation of the mechanic of the Su version of HiPS (recruiting shadows, or something). the trouble is that if this is the way that it works, true seeing should be effective as it negates all "normal and magical darkness".
HiPS removes the requirement for concealment to be able to hide. That requirement is replaced by within 10 feet of a shadow(AKA area of dim light).
Normally, a person in an area of dim light cannot hide from a creature with darkvision, because the darkvision negates their concealment. True seeing would do the same. But, since concealment is no longer required, neither darkvision nor true seeing will negate HiPS as long as they are within 10 feet of a shadow(area of dim light).
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I tend to agree with your RAI interpretation of the mechanic of the Su version of HiPS (recruiting shadows, or something). the trouble is that if this is the way that it works, true seeing should be effective as it negates all "normal and magical darkness".
No true seeing merely lets the viewer see through mundane and magical darkness to 120 ft. normally. True seeing does not actually make the dim light condition disappear. to anyone els but the true seer the dim light's still there. That's why it is not dependant on the observer, it's the actual conditions that allow the Shadowdancer to activate HiPS.
A creature with true seeing is really no different than a creature with darkvision or a devil with their see in darkness (Su) ability in relation to the Shadowdancer. The True Seer, Darvision user, and Devil all ignore the darkness, but it is still dark and thus the Shadowdancer is still potent. It is a good ability, but it isn't Greater Invisibility.
Ravingdork, Stealth checks are made as part of movement. The check in itself doesn't use up an action. You can remain hidden using the last check you made if you remain stationary, but to move again you must make a new check. And logically you make one check per move action taken. Compare Stealth to Climb or Jump or Fly... they all have similar wording so are probably meant to be used similarly...
--Vrock Crystal
Ravingdork, Stealth checks are made as part of movement. The check in itself doesn't use up an action. You can remain hidden using the last check you made if you remain stationary, but to move again you must make a new check. And logically you make one check per move action taken. Compare Stealth to Climb or Jump or Fly... they all have similar wording so are probably meant to be used similarly...
--Vrock Crystal
But I don't see that spelled out anywhere.
Do you need it to be spelled out in neon 10 foot high letters? You can infer it from how other skills are used. Short of a designer coming in and holding our hands we as GM's gotta make some decisions.
--Solid as a Vrock
Other skills like climb and swim specifically say you have to make the check each move action. To my knowledge stealth does not. Did I miss it somehow?
If it isn't written out clearly than it isn't RAW, only and inference, only an interpretation. Sure we could "make a decision" to make a broken ability work, but that doesn't change the fact that the ability is broken to begin with and that, yes, we DO need a game designer to come and "hold our hands" and show us how it was supposed to work.
I am referring to HiPS of course.