Reloading a crossbow as a move action..
Was that first suggested in this thread or in the other thread? I'm interested because I'm thinking I may make this legal for my homebrew and I want to give credit where its due.
Light crossbows, by current RAW, reload as move actions and heavy crossbows by full round action. With Rapid Reload this drops to a free action and a move action respectively.
...Giving one weapon the ability to snipe just makes sense to me.The crossbow has the option of being fired while the user is lieing down (cover bonus?) and can be held at full draw indefinatley..
..so some kinda mechanic that reflected this would go a long way towards helping it into the sniper niche.
Now, not actually being a sniper, I can only guess that having a weapon that frees you from straining your arm as you take a shot, that allows you to wait for just the right moment to fire, would be an advantage.
Now, how to reflect this in game terms... hmmm
The Crossbow Sniper feat in 3.5 enabled the distance for sneak attack to be doubled to 60 feet with a crossbow. As for shooting lying down, and using full cover, these are all options in the rules that players can exploit if they wish ... it comes down to the players making the most of the advantages of the crossbow, really.
Awesome, it's a start then.
However, 60ft isn't really 'sniper distance'...
..granted it'd slip most tables into a coma if a characters every action was ''I'm hanging back 210' and sniping''..
..still, it might float some folk's boats..
Hmm.. wouldn't be too hard to add a feat chain based around it tho.
What were the pre-reqs/could you point me in the right direction/beam into my mind/link/post the details of the Crossbow Sniper feat?
The Crossbow Sniper feat in 3.5 enabled the distance for sneak attack to be doubled to 60 feet with a crossbow.
Reloading a crossbow as a move action..
Was that first suggested in this thread or in the other thread? I'm interested because I'm thinking I may make this legal for my homebrew and I want to give credit where its due.
Light crossbows, by current RAW, reload as move actions and heavy crossbows by full round action. With Rapid Reload this drops to a free action and a move action respectively.
The Crossbow Sniper feat in 3.5 enabled the distance for sneak attack to be doubled to 60 feet with a crossbow. As for shooting lying down, and using full cover, these are all options in the rules that players can exploit if they wish ... it comes down to the players making the most of the advantages of the crossbow, really....Giving one weapon the ability to snipe just makes sense to me.The crossbow has the option of being fired while the user is lieing down (cover bonus?) and can be held at full draw indefinatley..
..so some kinda mechanic that reflected this would go a long way towards helping it into the sniper niche.
Now, not actually being a sniper, I can only guess that having a weapon that frees you from straining your arm as you take a shot, that allows you to wait for just the right moment to fire, would be an advantage.
Now, how to reflect this in game terms... hmmm
Thankee-sai.
Back in Basic D&D we used to let Light Crossbows do a D8 and Heavy do a D10. When the folks writing the game did the same thing but upped Longbow Damage Output, we upped the Damage Dice for Crossbows again to d12 for light and 2D12 for Heavy. The group loved the feel of punishing the bad guys as they closed. (it was a Dwarf Heavy Game) and then commenced wit da choppin!
We also use to hit mods vs different types of armor which made them very deadly vs heavy armor and slightly less effective vs lighter armor that could 'go to ground' when the Torkrest Warbows drew down on em. Fit well with the feel of our game. Not sure how it would work with PF / 3.x Feats and Splat Books.
All that aside, I think that if any group or DM want to make Crossbows more popular would have to make / houserule some feats or gadgets to bring them up to Longbow status.
I have a Heavy Crossbow in my game that the magic shoots out a bolt that is a small flaming dragon that hits for a D10, can be fired multiple times a round and defeats cover. It has a front in the shape of a dragon mouth and only the shooter sees the little dragon. Others just see a flaming bolt. Only +1 to hit but the dwarf Fighter/Rogue LOVES that bugger!
Hope some of this helps
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
What were the pre-reqs/could you point me in the right direction/beam into my mind/link/post the details of the Crossbow Sniper feat?
It's in the PHBII. Or here
There's also these two feats from the pathfinder campaign setting :
Focused Shot
Your knowledge of simple anatomy allows you to place your
shots more effectively.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot,
Kyonin affinity.
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make an attack
with a bow or crossbow and add your Intelligence modifier on
the damage dealt. You must be within 30 feet of your
target to deal this extra damage. Creatures immune
to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this
extra damage.
Sniper Shot
You are skilled at making deadly attacks from an
extreme distance.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Wis 13, Far Shot,
Focused Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot,
Kyonin affinity.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make
an attack that allows you to deal precision-based
extra damage to a distance equal to your weapon’s range
increment. You may only make this attack with
bows and crossbows. Precision-based damage
includes sneak attacks, a ranger’s favored
weapon bonus, and the damage bonus from
the Focused Shot feat. Creatures immune
to critical hits and sneak attacks are
Queen Telandia immune to this extra damage.
|
Personally I feel that if you want to reflect the power/advantage of crossbows you need reflect their mechanical nature and have a good GM that will allow engineering to modify/create variants within the campaign world.
+1
Given the heroic nature of D&D/PF, where anyone with a few ranks in Acrobatics is better than a modern Olympian, it should follow that any Expert with a few ranks in Craft should be the equal or better than our real-world Leonardo da Vinci.
Add to that the range of exotic materials available (how much potential energy could be stored in choker ligaments?), and there's no reason the crossbows in-game shouldn't far out-perform their real-world counterparts.
And that's before you throw magic into the mix, with self-loading, self-sorting, extradimensional bolt-hoppers, or self-cocking, Str30 crossbow-shaped golems, or the like.
Awesome, it's a start then.
However, 60ft isn't really 'sniper distance'...
..granted it'd slip most tables into a coma if a characters every action was ''I'm hanging back 210' and sniping''..
..still, it might float some folk's boats..
Hmm.. wouldn't be too hard to add a feat chain based around it tho.
What were the pre-reqs/could you point me in the right direction/beam into my mind/link/post the details of the Crossbow Sniper feat?
If you think about it, sniping didn't come in until rifled firearms did (weapons reliably accurate in semi-skilled hands over a hundred yards), and even then it didn't take off until you had telescopic sights. Bows don't do this, and medieval crossbows didn't either. Therefore, sixty feet is a pretty good and realistic increase. Added to this, how often do parties engage foes at ranges above this? In my experience, not often.
If you think about it, sniping didn't come in until rifled firearms did (weapons reliably accurate in semi-skilled hands over a hundred yards), and even then it didn't take off until you had telescopic sights. Bows don't do this, and medieval crossbows didn't either. Therefore, sixty feet is a pretty good and realistic increase. Added to this, how often do parties engage foes at ranges above this? In my experience, not often.Awesome, it's a start then.
However, 60ft isn't really 'sniper distance'...
..granted it'd slip most tables into a coma if a characters every action was ''I'm hanging back 210' and sniping''..
..still, it might float some folk's boats..
Hmm.. wouldn't be too hard to add a feat chain based around it tho.
What were the pre-reqs/could you point me in the right direction/beam into my mind/link/post the details of the Crossbow Sniper feat?
I had ONE guy who tried to do this, and then got frustrated when he discovered he couldn't. You have a point- 60 ft in D&D terms is a considerable sniping distance. But is double this- 120 ft- really so bad? At least with respect to sneak attacks? Especially since you can attack creatures 120 ft away normally with a heavy crossbow.
Therefore, sixty feet is a pretty good and realistic increase.
Except an Arcane Trickster can deal precision damage with touch attacks at ranges of hundreds of feet. That's the bar as to what should be possible in the game world. Given that point of comparison, "realistic" is nothing but a giant anchor around the necks of everyone else.
Therefore, sixty feet is a pretty good and realistic increase.Except an Arcane Trickster can deal precision damage with touch attacks at ranges of hundreds of feet. That's the bar as to what should be possible in the game world. Given that point of comparison, "realistic" is nothing but a giant anchor around the necks of everyone else.
Hm. Point.
ARe you saying Arcane Trickster is too much, or that noone should be able to go past that point(Arcane Trickster)?
I was just thinking about this and it's probably what I'm going to use it in my games, let the crossbow wielding PC's add 100gp to the price of a crossbow for an equivalent +1 to damage (maybe cut off the max amount at a +4 or +5 so it doesn't get abused). It's the same amount spent to add damage to composite bows but the only difference would be that the PC doesn't need a higher strength modifier to use it. Bows are still favorable because crossbows have a longer reload time but crossbows become a better weapon even in the hands of a wizard that's out of spells.
Therefore, sixty feet is a pretty good and realistic increase.Except an Arcane Trickster can deal precision damage with touch attacks at ranges of hundreds of feet. That's the bar as to what should be possible in the game world. Given that point of comparison, "realistic" is nothing but a giant anchor around the necks of everyone else.
Hm... That's a capstone ability, and it relies on magic and not on mechanical devices or personal talent.
Feats are not suppposed to be as useful as class abilities, and capstone abilities are supposed to be powerful enough to be a motivation to take all levels of a class.I would allow a telescopic sight (reserved to masterwork crossbows) to increase the limit on precision damage and to stack with crossbow sniper or sniper shot. The distance enhancement from 3.5 would double the base limit on precision damage along with the base range increment.
But no limit on precision damage should be at least a supernatural class ability.
If you think about it, sniping didn't come in until rifled firearms did (weapons reliably accurate in semi-skilled hands over a hundred yards), and even then it didn't take off until you had telescopic sights.
Sniping in the real world also benefit from the fact that one bullet, wherever it hits, is often enough to incapacitate a soldier. There's no imperative need to hit with precision as long as you hit.
I was just thinking about this and it's probably what I'm going to use it in my games, let the crossbow wielding PC's add 100gp to the price of a crossbow for an equivalent +1 to damage (maybe cut off the max amount at a +4 or +5 so it doesn't get abused). It's the same amount spent to add damage to composite bows but the only difference would be that the PC doesn't need a higher strength modifier to use it. Bows are still favorable because crossbows have a longer reload time but crossbows become a better weapon even in the hands of a wizard that's out of spells.
That's a reasonable boost, if the character hasn't that strength, just increase the loading time by one increment. After all, one way or another you do need strength to span the crossbow.
I had ONE guy who tried to do this, and then got frustrated when he discovered he couldn't. You have a point- 60 ft in D&D terms is a considerable sniping distance. But is double this- 120 ft- really so bad? At least with respect to sneak attacks? Especially since you can attack creatures 120 ft away normally with a heavy crossbow.
Attack, yes, but remember:
- Bolts and arrows aren't mass produced, they all have little differences that makes each fly slightly differently.- Wind effects bolts and arrows far more than bullets.
- Drop is much more important to both as well - you are shooting above the target based on the range, if you don't get it right, you miss completely.
Given all of these, could you really say that you could call a shot at 120 feet with reliable accuracy?
Hm... That's a capstone ability, and it relies on magic and not on mechanical devices or personal talent.
Feats are not suppposed to be as useful as class abilities, and capstone abilities are supposed to be powerful enough to be a motivation to take all levels of a class.
It's not a really GOOD capstone though. AT isn't a very...strong class. It's not that fair of a comparison either way.
As for magical ability, I don't need magic to be awesome. If I'm playing D&D, I'm a fantasy hero.
Given all of these, could you really say that you could call a shot at 120 feet with reliable accuracy?
Absolutely. I'm a fantasy hero.
This is the problem with crying for realism - the game isn't intended to be realistic. Legolas kills an orc with every arrow he fires. Cu Chulainn goes into horrifying warp spasms that alter his very body. Beowulf rips the arm off of Grendel. Odysseus strings a bow that no other mortal man could handle.
Damn right I can call a shot 120 feet away with reliable accuracy. I'm not a level zero peasant who dies from water poisoning. I'm an adventurer. A hero.
it relies on magic and not on mechanical devices or personal talent.
And that's exactly the problem I'm having with the discussion here -- "magic" is given a free pass to accomplish anything at all, whereas "realism" is used an excuse to make sure that non-casters can't possibly compete. Why play a 9th level rogue if I can be a caster with an infallible wand of trapfinding and a wand of orb of force? I'm finding traps more consistently and also dealing 9d6 at any range at will, whereas the rogue is missing traps and dealing 6d6 within 30 ft. only when he can set up a sneak attack. And why play a fighter if magical attacks are always better than weapons?
Whatever magic can do, specifically in terms of combat, combat classes should be able to do as well (or even exceed) if they spend the resources (feats or rogue talents or whatever). Otherwise we're all just playing "Ars Magicus" and pretending there are multiple classes.
Hm... That's a capstone ability, and it relies on magic and not on mechanical devices or personal talent.
Feats are not suppposed to be as useful as class abilities, and capstone abilities are supposed to be powerful enough to be a motivation to take all levels of a class.It's not a really GOOD capstone though. AT isn't a very...strong class. It's not that fair of a comparison either way.
As for magical ability, I don't need magic to be awesome. If I'm playing D&D, I'm a fantasy hero.
Given all of these, could you really say that you could call a shot at 120 feet with reliable accuracy?Absolutely. I'm a fantasy hero.
This is the problem with crying for realism - the game isn't intended to be realistic. Legolas kills an orc with every arrow he fires. Cu Chulainn goes into horrifying warp spasms that alter his very body. Beowulf rips the arm off of Grendel. Odysseus strings a bow that no other mortal man could handle.
Damn right I can call a shot 120 feet away with reliable accuracy. I'm not a level zero peasant who dies from water poisoning. I'm an adventurer. A hero.
Yes - but then we are rooting our fantasy in reality. I don't have a problem with a crossbow getting 120 feet, but the problems it faces are not much different to a bow, so the bow should get a boost in this respect as well (if not as good a one) if the crossbow is going to deviate that far from reality. This is the issue we face. After all, William Tell may have been a legendary crossbowman, but Robin Hood was a famous longbowman - and both were famed for their accuracy.
Damn right I can call a shot 120 feet away with reliable accuracy. I'm not a level zero peasant who dies from water poisoning. I'm an adventurer. A hero.
You are a fantasy hero. But your crossbow is still just a few bits of wood and string strapped together.
"magic" is given a free pass to accomplish anything at all, whereas "realism" is used an excuse to make sure that non-casters can't possibly compete.
My point certainly isn't to make non-casters useless, it's to make them useful without making them look like magic users.
I'm okay with letting them snipe at 120 feet without magical help, even 240 feet, as is possible in 3.5 (though i'd add a masterwork requirement), but not with using magic as a model for crossbows, especially to balance it with bows.Basing the crossbows adjustments on the characteristics of their RL namesakes ensure that my rogue feels like he's using a crossbow and not a spell.
Damn right I can call a shot 120 feet away with reliable accuracy. I'm not a level zero peasant who dies from water poisoning. I'm an adventurer. A hero.You are a fantasy hero. But your crossbow is still just a few bits of wood and string strapped together.
That doesn't matter. A sword is just a bit of metal that's been sharpened. A warhammer is a more organized club.
"magic" is given a free pass to accomplish anything at all, whereas "realism" is used an excuse to make sure that non-casters can't possibly compete.My point certainly isn't to make non-casters useless, it's to make them useful without making them look like magic users.
I'm okay with letting them snipe at 120 feet without magical help, even 240 feet, as is possible in 3.5 (though i'd add a masterwork requirement), but not with using magic as a model for crossbows, especially to balance it with bows.Basing the crossbows adjustments on the characteristics of their RL namesakes ensure that my rogue feels like he's using a crossbow and not a spell.
If you cannot picture your character doing something cool without having something magical there to back it up, the problem is not with the mechanics.
I love the repeating crossbow. My new lvl 10 Bard is wielding one in the game we are starting. PEW PEW PEW! Take THAT zombie barstard! PEW PEW....oh crap, must reload! Screw that, drop first one Handy Haversack the next one and move, PEW PEW PEW!
Are you not entertained?!
HA HA HA HA HA !!!!
Professorcirno, I don't understand where you got that from.
"replicating spells is not the best way to make a non-magic user useful" does not mean "replicating spells is the only way to make non-magic users cool".
And definitely, the tool you use does matter. A non-magical warhammer can't crush castles. A non-magical crossbow can't be accurate at 3000 feet. I don't see how that prevents the characters from being cool.
I was just thinking about this and it's probably what I'm going to use it in my games, let the crossbow wielding PC's add 100gp to the price of a crossbow for an equivalent +1 to damage (maybe cut off the max amount at a +4 or +5 so it doesn't get abused). It's the same amount spent to add damage to composite bows but the only difference would be that the PC doesn't need a higher strength modifier to use it. Bows are still favorable because crossbows have a longer reload time but crossbows become a better weapon even in the hands of a wizard that's out of spells.That's a reasonable boost, if the character hasn't that strength, just increase the loading time by one increment. After all, one way or another you do need strength to span the crossbow.
So you're saying my Gnome Sorcerer with an 8 strength can't reload his heavy crossbow with a +5 strength bonus as fast as his Orc cohort? That seems a little unfair, I mean I can bend reality to shoot fire from my eyes, grow 10 feet tall, and call down a lightning storm but I can't reload a crossbow? cough cough *sarcasm* cough
Been out of this thread awhile. Thinking "out loud" about what I already do and plan on adding to my campaign during it's current upgrade...
In my game there are three varieties of crossbow; light, heavy and arbalest. Light and heavy are as they are in game. The light crossbow can be spanned with a lever (firing once per round). The heavy with a belt claw / stirrup arrangement (firing every other round). The arbalest uses a crank winch system. It does 1d12, and has a 150' range increment. It requires 2 full rounds to wind up and may be fired as a full action on the third round. Three bolts per minute (a bit faster than the historical models,but hey).
What I'm adding: a feat for crossbow marksmanship. Add +1 to hit per round sighting on the target, up to +3 (for three rounds). The range, damage and sniping make the crossbow useful. Thinking on what others have said, going prone with a crossbow would give you cover and add a further +1 to hit for steadying your aim. This would make it an excellent sniper's / assassin's weapon. My assassin's use a "breakdown" light crossbow that can be hidden easily and put together in 3 rounds btw. Increase the point blank range by 30' per round you track your target with the feat (allowing the assassin to kill further out)...
Make it a house rule that bows cannot be carried ready (tensioned with arrow knocked) and require a standard action to ready them while crossbows can be carried ready to fire. I have the longbow as an exotic weapon already. In rl a longbow stave was cut from a yew (maximum of about 4 staves from one yew tree -- exotic materials) due to the requirements for heartwood and exterior wood, pickled / cured in a case with a secret blend of substances for months, trimmed and then dried for final production. Have them all masterwork, built to a bowman's strength (minimum 10?) and are accordingly expensive (and are already only available in one area of my game).
Maybe reduce the rate of fire for bows to 1 per round(?). I don't have any current archery fiends and am updating my game (it's resuming next month, come on APG...). Making this stuff "doable". Maybe have an archery feat that allows you to prepare arrows (typically done by sticking them point down in the ground in front of you) for one additional attack / round. Probably increase the range increment of bows by 20' in a masterwork bow... and have strength bonuses / penalties apply.
OK. Criticism (constructive) / comments / additions welcome / pointing out of rules I'm missing etc....
*edit* Oh, maybe nerf the increased rof for some bow feats to reflect the decreased rof of 1 arrow per round (if I do that)...
So you're saying my Gnome Sorcerer with an 8 strength can't reload his heavy crossbow with a +5 strength bonus as fast as his Orc cohort? That seems a little unfair, I mean I can bend reality to shoot fire from my eyes, grow 10 feet tall, and call down a lightning storm but I can't reload a crossbow? cough cough *sarcasm* coughI was just thinking about this and it's probably what I'm going to use it in my games, let the crossbow wielding PC's add 100gp to the price of a crossbow for an equivalent +1 to damage (maybe cut off the max amount at a +4 or +5 so it doesn't get abused). It's the same amount spent to add damage to composite bows but the only difference would be that the PC doesn't need a higher strength modifier to use it. Bows are still favorable because crossbows have a longer reload time but crossbows become a better weapon even in the hands of a wizard that's out of spells.That's a reasonable boost, if the character hasn't that strength, just increase the loading time by one increment. After all, one way or another you do need strength to span the crossbow.
Well, in all seriousness, a crossbow and a longbow have the same principal: they store the energy of your muscles, then release it to make a missile fly. Now if you have a bow, the result of not being strong is that the arrow flies with less force - not a problem. The advantage of a crossbow is that by using a lever or windlass you can store your muscle power more efficiently and incrementally but you still have to store the same amount of muscle power. Therefore, the higher strength rating is attainable by any strength, but to store the same amount of force will therefore take longer if you can generate less force in a given period of time (ie have a lower strength score).
Now if your gnome sorcerer wants to cast a spell called 'autoload' on his crossbow that spans and relaods it for him, that's cool by me. But as long as he's relying purely on his muscles to span the crossbow and not on his magic, the magic bit doesn't come into it, sorry.
Autoload
School: Transformation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 0, cleric 0.
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Components: V, S, F.
Range: Touch
Target: One crossbow and bolt (the focus of the spell)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: not applicable.
When cast on a crossbow of any size that you hold, the crossbow automatically is spanned and loaded, ready to shoot.
Well, in all seriousness, a crossbow and a longbow have the same principal: they store the energy of your muscles, then release it to make a missile fly. Now if you have a bow, the result of not being strong is that the arrow flies with less force - not a problem. The advantage of a crossbow is that by using a lever or windlass you can store your muscle power more efficiently and incrementally but you still have to store the same amount of muscle power. Therefore, the higher strength rating is attainable by any strength, but to store the same amount of force will therefore take longer if you can generate less force in a given period of time (ie have a lower strength score).Now if your gnome sorcerer wants to cast a spell called 'autoload' on his crossbow that spans and relaods it for him, that's cool by me. But as long as he's relying...
Ya I was just joking around. I think that's what I'm going to do with crossbows though. Still not sure about my firearms, I was thinking about having them add dex as precision based damage and giving them exploding die but I'm not sure. Maybe they'll just be able to add 100gp for a bonus to damage and you don't need a strength score, but the amount can't exceed +5 or some such. I think I'm going to snatch that spell and allow it to be used on guns as well. I may change it to a standard action to cast but last for multiple rounds (or something like that). Thanks :)
Ya I was just joking around. I think that's what I'm going to do with crossbows though. Still not sure about my firearms, I was thinking about having them add dex as precision based damage and giving them exploding die but I'm not sure. Maybe they'll just be able to add 100gp for a bonus to damage and you don't need a strength score, but the amount can't exceed +5 or some such. I think I'm going to snatch that spell and allow it to be used on guns as well. I may change it to a standard action to cast but last for multiple rounds (or something like that). Thanks :)
Well, in all seriousness, a crossbow and a longbow have the same principal: they store the energy of your muscles, then release it to make a missile fly. Now if you have a bow, the result of not being strong is that the arrow flies with less force - not a problem. The advantage of a crossbow is that by using a lever or windlass you can store your muscle power more efficiently and incrementally but you still have to store the same amount of muscle power. Therefore, the higher strength rating is attainable by any strength, but to store the same amount of force will therefore take longer if you can generate less force in a given period of time (ie have a lower strength score).Now if your gnome sorcerer wants to cast a spell called 'autoload' on his crossbow that spans and relaods it for him, that's cool by me. But as long as he's relying...
Well a point raised from another thread that can make a big difference - anyone who can cast unseen servant has an assistant who can load for them, be it a firearm or a crossbow ...