If I have a BBEG, and he takes the leadership feat. Are his cohorts and followers part of his CR, or should the players get XP for defeating them as well?
A cohort is normally a few levels lower than the leader. If the two are close enough in level, the question is important. Standing encounter design tells us that with summoning abilities, you don't count the creature(s) summoned separately. In a similar vein, you could argue that the cohort is an "ability" of the BBEG that he gained through acquisition of the Leadership feat. I personally feel this is a bit of a cop-out, as Leadership is stronger than other feats by far. Also, a cohort can be 2 levels lower than the BBEG, which if we were designing the encounter w/o Leadership could bump up the CR by 1. I'd therefore argue that the cohort should increase the challenge.
Followers, however, are generally flimsy. I wouldn't count them, as they are seldom even close to the level of the Leader. They're often a nuisance in battle, though good tactics and judicious use of terrain can make them more threatening, thus giving you an excuse to give out a little XP for them.
Followers, however, are generally flimsy. I wouldn't count them, as they are seldom even close to the level of the Leader. They're often a nuisance in battle, though good tactics and judicious use of terrain can make them more threatening, thus giving you an excuse to give out a little XP for them.
Try facing 20 level 1 enchanters who have the improved initiative feat and a wand of fireball.
Can you say surprise round massacre?
If I used XP as a GM, then yes, I would give XP for defeating cohorts and followers. But not for class features like animal companions or familiars.
No, the cohort and followers don't give XP, since they are gotten through a feat. They're just part of the abilities of the BBEG, like an animal companion or critters summoned by spell.
Now, if they're particularly well-equipped followers, or have some really clever tactical advantage, the CR for the whole encounter would go up, but you don't get individual XP for the minions gained through the leadership feat.
Followers, however, are generally flimsy. I wouldn't count them, as they are seldom even close to the level of the Leader. They're often a nuisance in battle, though good tactics and judicious use of terrain can make them more threatening, thus giving you an excuse to give out a little XP for them.Try facing 20 level 1 enchanters who have the improved initiative feat and a wand of fireball.
Can you say surprise round massacre?
An expensive tactic....that could easily backfire (literally).
Someone who caught wind of 20 poorly hidden Level 1 Enchanters could catch them all nicely with an AoE effect or two depending on their spacing, given their poor HP they wouldnt even bother to roll saving throws.
If someone won that fight, they'd get bags full of partially charged Wands Of Fireball, which is an expensive setback for your BBEG.
Otherwise, a good idea depending who theyre up against.
The Leadership feat really isn't meant for NPCs the way it is written. Unless your NPC needs a high level mount or something, there really isn't much need to waste the feat.
Also consider that it would really screw the party over on XP. Imagine if you have an NPC fighter 12 with a leadership score of 13. He would be CR 11, his cohort would be CR 9, his 10 level 1 followers would CR 1/2, and his level 2 follower would be CR 1. That's a lot of XP the party would miss out on even though they would spend a ton of resources on that fight.
Generally, I wouldn't use the Leadership feat for NPCs. It isn't necessary most of the time.
I would never give the BBEG the leadership feat.. he can his cohort for free, I view it merely as a tool to give players a loyal sidekick at some significant expense.
Ninjas >_<
While I generally agree with the sentiment that Leadership should be primarily used for PC's, (Heck, I used to think Fighters should get it as a bonus feat at L9, inspired by the old AD&D rules for fighter followers at higher levels.) One of the most enjoyable encounters I ever designed was a retread of "Expedition to Barrier Peaks", wherein an evil mind flayer had crashed a spaceship a millennium ago.
I designed the mind flayer as an Illusionist/Mastermind (not sure where that PrC came from- complete psionics or something?) and stocked his spaceship with dozens of humanoid followers "collected" from around the area.
I actually ran his low level followers as a "mob" (3.5 DMG2?), comparable to a swarm under 3.5 rules and as they surged forward and tried to crush the life out of the party, the spiked chain wielding Fighter had a field day almost literally mowing them down.
His higher level follower was a more vanilla mind flayer with some melee capability and along with a few creatures added to the final combat (additional CR, not covered by leadership) it was an entertaining, challenging, yet ultimately heroic encounter for the party.
Followers, however, are generally flimsy. I wouldn't count them, as they are seldom even close to the level of the Leader. They're often a nuisance in battle, though good tactics and judicious use of terrain can make them more threatening, thus giving you an excuse to give out a little XP for them.Try facing 20 level 1 enchanters who have the improved initiative feat and a wand of fireball.
Can you say surprise round massacre?
An expensive tactic....that could easily backfire (literally).
Someone who caught wind of 20 poorly hidden Level 1 Enchanters could catch them all nicely with an AoE effect or two depending on their spacing, given their poor HP they wouldnt even bother to roll saving throws.
If someone won that fight, they'd get bags full of partially charged Wands Of Fireball, which is an expensive setback for your BBEG.
Otherwise, a good idea depending who theyre up against.
Good luck actually surprising them.
dex mod + 5 to initiative, and they always get to act in the surprise round no matter what.
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While things called during combat to help via summon spells and the like don't factor into XP... I would actually say that cohorts SHOULD factor into XP.
That said, you shouldn't really give Leadership to an NPC really, since you can accomplish the same thing by just saying that an NPC has a devoted follower. Leadership is really mostly intended for use by PCs as a mechanical way to allow them to have a sidekick.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way I see it, when an NPC has cohorts, he has them through Encounter Design rather than through the leadership feat. So I give out XP for them.
A D&D official 3.5 sourcebook called Exemplars Of Evil explains how BBEG's get cohorts and minions, its quite different than the Leadership feat.
For one, a BBEG would get 1-3 Cohorts (each consecutively two levels lower than the last, ranked in order of seniority, calculated with vastly different adjustments than normal Leadership) and minions are not modified by being aloof or cruel as normal with Leadership.
Its quite an interesting (but optional) take on how to give bad guys minions. I use it all the time, it even helps you build villains with long term plans and cohorts and gives you five examples at different levels of power who have their HQ's all mapped and described.
A D&D official 3.5 sourcebook called Exemplars Of Evil explains how BBEG's get cohorts and minions, its quite different than the Leadership feat.For one, a BBEG would get 1-3 Cohorts (each consecutively two levels lower than the last, ranked in order of seniority, calculated with vastly different adjustments than normal Leadership) and minions are not modified by being aloof or cruel as normal with Leadership.
Its quite an interesting (but optional) take on how to give bad guys minions. I use it all the time, it even helps you build villains with long term plans and cohorts and gives you five examples at different levels of power who have their HQ's all mapped and described.
That's all fine and dandy. But what rules are there for an adventuring group of evil NPCs that are all the same level?
Answer: None. No rules; just do it.
So if I can write a plot around a group of five 10th level NPC villains without needing special rules for setting up tht group, then I should be able to write a plot for a 10th level NPC villain with an 8th level loyal follower without needing special rules for setting that up either. Or a 10th level wizard who Dominated a stupid 12th level barbarian to be his meatshield puppet - no Cohort rules I've ever seen allow for cohorts of a higher level than the boss. Or a 10th level wizard who has simply hired a 12th level barbarian to be his bodyguard.
The game doesn't need rules for any of that, so there really isn't any need to make some BBEG's burn a feat on Leadership when we could just freely give him his NPC and monster followers at will.
And since we can just give them to him, we should give XP for each of them too.