While I feel that surprise rounds work well in most cases (such as a group of archers on the top of a hillside trying to hide from characters walking on the road), there are a few situations where I feel it doesn't make sense that the attacker would only get a standard or a move action.
For instance, with the current rules, a Phase Spider can't perform his entire attack routine (free action move to Material, attack, move action return to Ethereal) unless the party is already aware that it's there. Which seems counterintuitive to me, as it would be best served by moving in to let them see it, return to the Ethereal, and then perform it's actual attack the next round, rather than stalking them on the ethereal plane and attack with surprise.
So, would I be too unfair on my players if I allowed a Phase Spider his full routine when they are totally unaware of it?
I would also let an invisible Rogue player get a full round action if he successfully snuck up on an unaware opponent, although by the rules for surprise he should only get 1 standard or move action.
How do other DM's handle such situations?
:shrugs:
There's a LOT in D20/D&D/PF that doesn't make a lot of sense.
My own favorite method: have a sit down before the game and chat w/the players about my perceived problems and present options to choose from for them to discuss and settle upon.
Honestly - works every time on a game by game basis. Instant play-testing of any number of wild crap has come from my group this way. I also let them fully present ideas and we'll run with 'em, too.
:shrugs:
Bottom line, if you think surprise rules suck - fiat 'em and run 'em w/whatever group consensus you arrive at.
I'm w/you on it being "ok" but having problems overall. IMO, granting a FULL 1st round of "they can do stuff" and defenders "can't do stuff" is fine anyway. It just rewards tactics in-combat {OMG!!! Imagine *that* bit of nonsense at your game table!!! ;-D }
I allow players (and monsters) to delay during a suprise round if they want so that they can act first in the first full round of combat. Of course, the downside by taking this option is that everyone else gets an action before it's your turn again. Sometimes, if you take your suprise round action, you'd get to go again at the beginning of the first round (assuming a good init roll).
Tem has the right of it.
You can use the Delay action to Delay until a later round. It's not entirely clear, but you can go on any turn that you could have rolled (d20 + your Init modifier).
So when your phase spider with initiative +7 gets a surprise round, just have him delay until next round on turn 27. It's really very likely that he will go first, and everyone will still be flat-footed, and even if anyone can go before the spider, what are the chances they could even detect the spider on their turn?
Occasionally this trick doesn't work, like if people on both sides of the battle get surprise rounds. You know, the PCs walk into the room through the east door right when the orcs walk in through the west. DM rolls perception & steatlh for all the orcs, each PC rolls perception and stealth, some make their perception checks and can act in the surprise round, some fail the checks and cannot. But really, how often does that happen?
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How about we start by fully reading the descriptions of what the monsters can do before we decide that surprise rounds don't work properly, eh?
Phase Spiders have this ability after all.
Ethereal Ambush (Ex)
"A phase spider that attacks foes on the Material Plane in a surprise round can take a full round of actions if it begins the combat by phasing into the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane."
So a phase spider in a surprise round can move and phase onto the material plane, attack and then phase back onto the Ethereal Plane just like it's supposed to do.
This raises two good points.
The first is of course to always make sure your reading everything in regards to a monster or rule and understanding it. These books are very thick and there are plenty of things anyone can easily skim over and miss.
The second is to look at each situation and decide how best to handle it as a DM without going all out on the main rules of the game, the rules that your players are coming to the table with the expectation of playing by. Altering things should usually start out at the smallest things and then move up with changes to the core rules being the last option.
A rogue is invisible against an opponent who hasn't noticed them yet in any way? Why roll initiative at that point then? If said rogue was going to attack the other person, the attack would end up being the surprise round. Said person would get a few perception checks to notice something suspicious depending on just what the rogue was doing if they weren't attacking, but no reason to get into combat rounds until there actually is combat unless you want too.
Initiative and perception exist to see how quickly the person can react to the sudden existence of a rogue and it's very likely that with initiative the rogue could be getting a round-and-a-half jump on the person unless they can react fast enough, i.e. beat the rogue in initiative.
If you must create house rules it should be discussed with the group as a whole and usually done after or before a session rather then during play for the sake of fairness. I also recommend writing them down so they're more of a constant and easier to refer to by you and your players.
Ethereal Ambush (Ex)
"A phase spider that attacks foes on the Material Plane in a surprise round can take a full round of actions if it begins the combat by phasing into the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane."
Hah! That's pretty sweet. I'll admit it, I didn't read anything about phase spiders beyond looking up their initiative modifier for my example.
Shame on me.
But, that's a fairly unique example that happens to apply to the OPs specific post, but if he had been fighting just about anything else in the game, his OP would have been valid. Limited actions in a surprise round really only benefit ranged attackers. For those attackers who find themselves with a melee weapon in hand (or claw, or teeth) and a surprise round against enemies just a few feet out of reach, surprise rounds can be fairly useless - except as an opportunity to Delay so they can get max initiative in the first round.
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That's why you have the options in the surprise round. If your within a 5' step you can easily maneuver in and use a standard action to vital strike, deadly stroke or what have you. If your within a single movement and you've got the clear path you can always use a Partial Charge as well, since your limited to a standard action in a surprise round. You could even quick draw out a dagger or throwing axe and give it a toss, move into a more tactically advantageous place or even use your surprise action to run away!
The situation your describing where you wait to go first seems much more like your simply wasting the advantage of your surprise by doing nothing at all. The whole point of the surprise round is allowing you to not be considered flat footed as well as give you just a brief window of advantage. If having a high initiative is what's important to you there are traits and feats that exist solely for that purpose that are much better ways of doing that given how uncommon it can be for a party to have the surprise.
I must admit I didn't look too closely at the statblock before making the examples; it was just from memory.
However, the fact that the Phase Spider has that ability actually strengthens my argument. It means that even the game designers felt that there were situations the normal surprise round rules didn't cover, and times where the attacker should get a full-round action rather than a partial round.
So, since there is one such exception, there could easily be more.
As an aside, I wonder why this was moved to "Advice"; it was actually meant as a discussion on the merits of some times deviating from the regular surprise round rules.
it was actually meant as a discussion on the merits of some times deviating from the regular surprise round rules.
On that merit, I would definitely advocate playing the surprise round as written.
Allowing full attacks in a surprise round (for everyone, not just phase spiders) is deadly. Very deadly. Think about it, at higher level, with multiple iterative attacks, Rapid Shot, etc., several ambushing rogues could wipe out a whole party. Even just one ambushing rogue with several attacks could easily drop the party wizard from healthy to dead. From a game mechanic POV, surprise rounds are meant to be painful, not deadly.
If a band of orcs could use a surprise round to move 60' AND attack, placing themselves in the perfect position, without fear of AoOs from the surprised and flat-footed PCs, then the group would begin their round half-dead, surrounded, and with every caster in threatened squares with nowhere to hide.
Too deadly.
I think the partial-action Surprise round keeps it mechanically viable without wiping out entire groups of unsuspecting targets.
"Some times", not every time. But yes, I do see your point. Probably safest to leave things as they are written.