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Undo Artifice (Sp)
At 11th-level, you gain the ability to reduce a nonliving item to its component parts, essentially erasing the hand of artifice and rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials. This effect acts as the spell polymorph any object, working on both magical and nonmagical nonliving objects. The duration is always permanent. Unlike polymorph any object, it cannot be used to mimic the effects of other spells. Items subject to this effect receive a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect. Magic items receive a circumstance bonus on this save equal to +1 for every 5,000 gp in the item’s value. You may use undo artifice a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
I think that this ability is very cool. It, and erosion touch, are abilities that I'd like to take with a Nature Oracle I'm planning. Roleplay and flavour-wise I think this ability is amazing, but in game terms and utility to the party, I'm just not sure what it's for or why it's only available at 11th level. Polymorph Any Object is a high-level spell, but that can't be the only reason.
A Nature Oracle could use this ability to take apart buildings, destroy items, etc etc, but what ARE the "raw natural materials" of a magical item? If I take apart a +1 Longsword, are these "raw natural materials" comparable in monetary value to the +1 Longsword? If my Oracle had Craft Magic Arms and Armor, could they use Undo Artifice on a +1 Longsword, and then use the "raw natural materials" from this +1 Longsword to "craft"/magic up a masterwork dagger to +1? Or is the ability, in the end, just for show?
That's a headache of an ability there. If I had someone pick it up though I'd just handwave it and let them break items down into "materials equal to original GP value" for the purpose of making new items.
Players love taking bad magical items and turning them into good ones.
I'm sure there's some mathematical rule crunchy way to do it but it's later.
A Nature Oracle could use this ability to take apart buildings, destroy items, etc etc, but what ARE the "raw natural materials" of a magical item? If I take apart a +1 Longsword, are these "raw natural materials" comparable in monetary value to the +1 Longsword? If my Oracle had Craft Magic Arms and Armor, could they use Undo Artifice on a +1 Longsword, and then use the "raw natural materials" from this +1 Longsword to "craft"/magic up a masterwork dagger to +1? Or is the ability, in the end, just for show?
That's exactly right. you can essentially break down an item to re-craft whilst using the raw materials for the new item.
That's a headache of an ability there. If I had someone pick it up though I'd just handwave it and let them break items down into "materials equal to original GP value" for the purpose of making new items.
i'm pretty sure that's how it works. no math needed.
Could just turn it into 1/3 the cost of the item. Which would be the raw materials used to craft the masterwork item without any of the "magical" essence gold value brought back.
Although perhaps for a +1 longsword you break down turns into a chuck of raw iron with some pieces of other metals a couple strips of un-tanned leather, a pile of incenses, oils, and three goats. *shrug*
Although perhaps for a +1 longsword you break down turns into a chuck of raw iron with some pieces of other metals a couple strips of un-tanned leather, a pile of incenses, oils, and three goats. *shrug*
LOL that's hilarious.
*PC breaks down magic item* baaaaa, baaaaa, baaaaa, what the hell?!?
Hey, thanks for the replies! Breaking down items into pre-sacrificed goats and so-on will be perfect for this character, :D. Go go go chaotic Varisian hustlers! If I do make this character, he'd be roaming around with his wizard brother, who would probably be the one doing the majority of the crafting -- though we may both pick up some feats, it depends on how the Nature Oracle guy's spell list turned out.
Anyhow,
Is it a matter of interpretation for this Revelation to give you all the components/GP/etc of the magical item (to allow recrafting of ... well, everything), or is that 100% how it reads? That's how my friend had read it too, but I wasn't totally convinced and when I asked my GM for his opinion he said the magical components probably dissipated.
Now, we may have misunderstood each other. To make a Belt of Strength a Bull's Strength spell is TECHNICALLY a component, and the Bull's Strength spell would probably dissipate when the item is broken down; consequently, that may have been what he meant! Regardless, I won't be reopening the discussion with him unless I'm sure of what the ability is supposed to do, so I want to clear out as much interpretative grey area as possible.
The key words are 'raw natural materials'. Spells aren't materials. The masterwork longsword is. If you check out p.548 on in Core and look at its use of the word 'materials', this is pointed out.
btw, check out the trait that reduces magical item cost, might be handy.
Oh, no, I agree completely that (with the example of the Strength Belt), the casting of Bull's Strength is not a "material component," and therefore would dissipate when a Strength Belt is broken down.
But to your interpretation, the ability reads that everything physical that was necessary to make a Strength Belt (leather, metal, etc for the physical belt + "Magical Supplies") is separated and "available" to the character after they use Undo Artifice?
Furthermore, would the Magical Supplies that are rendered from the Strength Belt still be in a usable form? Or would they be so broken down that they are useless to the character?
This ability, this ability, arrrg.
But to your interpretation, the ability reads that everything physical that was necessary to make a Strength Belt (leather, metal, etc for the physical belt + "Magical Supplies") is separated and "available" to the character after they use Undo Artifice?
It's not just my interpretation, it's written. If you look under say, for example, creating magical weapons it says "She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled".
Furthermore, would the Magical Supplies that are rendered from the Strength Belt still be in a usable form? Or would they be so broken down that they are useless to the character?
This ability, this ability, arrrg.
It doesn't say that they're destroyed, in fact that would make this almost worthless (except for a mage slayer fluff). You've destroyed the magic binding the item and are left with the raw materials. You need raw materials to craft an item, which you know have.
As a side note tho, it's prob not optimal to do this. Unless i suppose you can't sell magic items. If you get magic items that you can't use you can (usually) sell them for 1/2 price. 1/2 the price of a +1 longsword is 1157. If you break it down to it's raw materials, that's 315. halved is 157. you're gimping yourself by a grand.
The exception to this is if the item has expensive material components. Then it's prob worth it.
Full gold amount.
Enchanting a weapon doesn't just require the spell, it also requires the whatever gold amount of materials. The wizard doesn't just yawn, point at the sword, and go "Blah blah blire blantated, your sword is now fire enchanted" and bam, flaming property, after all.
I'd say this reduces the enchanted item to not just the core materials needed for the masterwork longsword but also the materials needed to enchant it.
So yeah, I'd say it breaks the item into the full gold amount, but in parts, so you'd have to sell those parts to get the gold for it, or use it to make a new item. I'd count the materials for the enchantment part as useable for anyone who wants to then enchant something else, as, the way I see it, the materials allow the weapon to BE enchanted, and the spell itself is what applies the proper enchantment (that is to say, a flaming and a shocking enchantment use the same materials, as those materials allow the spell to bind to the weapon).
It doesn't say that they're destroyed, in fact that would make this almost worthless (except for a mage slayer fluff). You've destroyed the magic binding the item and are left with the raw materials. You need raw materials to craft an item, which you know have.
Oh, no no, I didn't mean "broken down" as in "destroyed," but say for example that one of the Material Components of the item was an herbal tea-like concoction to sprinkle over the item when you cast the spell on it. Would Undo Artifice give you the herbal mixture, or would it give you a cup of water with some leaves on the side? Does it separate things so completely that you'd probably need Craft: Alchemy just to make them into arcane components again, is what I meant.
As a side note tho, it's prob not optimal to do this. Unless i suppose you can't sell magic items. If you get magic items that you can't use you can (usually) sell them for 1/2 price. 1/2 the price of a +1 longsword is 1157. If you break it down to it's raw materials, that's 315. halved is 157. you're gimping yourself by a grand.
I don't understand what you mean by this, actually. I must be missing something here. Why has this been halved so many times? Why is the final result 157gp?
You can sell the sword for 1/2 the cost. If you were making the sword, it would have cost you 1/2 the cost. Why wouldn't the "raw components" be of the same value as what it would have cost you to make the sword?
Sure, if you were selling the raw components, you'd sell them for half (Or is this what I'm getting wrong?) and you'd be left with ~500gp, but your numbers are 315 and 157 instead. Confusion!
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Mmm... market price for a +1 longsword is 2000(+1)+15(sword)+300(masterwork)
Total 2315
1/2 of that is 1157.5g
That's the cost to create.
When creating a magic weapon, you use up 1/2 this price in raw materials.
578.75g
However this isn't quite right. For the sword and the masterwork section, you're paying 1/3 in raw materials, while for the +1 you're paying 1/2.
So, really, your total should be closer to this:
315/2 *base cost*=157.5
157.5/3 *raw components used* =52.5
2000/2 *base cost*=1000
1000/2*raw components*=500
500+52.5=552.5g
Undo Artifice (Sp)
At 11th-level, you gain the ability to reduce a nonliving item to its component parts, essentially erasing the hand of artifice and rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials. This effect acts as the spell polymorph any object, working on both magical and nonmagical nonliving objects. The duration is always permanent. Unlike polymorph any object, it cannot be used to mimic the effects of other spells. Items subject to this effect receive a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect. Magic items receive a circumstance bonus on this save equal to +1 for every 5,000 gp in the item’s value. You may use undo artifice a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
I think that this ability is very cool. It, and erosion touch, are abilities that I'd like to take with a Nature Oracle I'm planning. Roleplay and flavour-wise I think this ability is amazing, but in game terms and utility to the party, I'm just not sure what it's for or why it's only available at 11th level. Polymorph Any Object is a high-level spell, but that can't be the only reason.
A Nature Oracle could use this ability to take apart buildings, destroy items, etc etc, but what ARE the "raw natural materials" of a magical item? If I take apart a +1 Longsword, are these "raw natural materials" comparable in monetary value to the +1 Longsword? If my Oracle had Craft Magic Arms and Armor, could they use Undo Artifice on a +1 Longsword, and then use the "raw natural materials" from this +1 Longsword to "craft"/magic up a masterwork dagger to +1? Or is the ability, in the end, just for show?
Its for pissing off clerics of Abadar :D
People all seem to have vastly different interpretations of what's written for this ability =/.
After looking at this some more, i think i was a bit hasty. Professor Cirno has it right.
You break down an item into its raw materials.
Raw materials is what's used in the crafting process.
The crafting process is 1/2 the cost of the market price of the item.
Excluding any spells cast.
@kenmckinney - 3.
I agree Tanis, I think Professor Cirno's assessment seems like the most reasonable. Still, I wonder if it would be possible to get an official ruling on the ability; what's it for, if it can be used to deconstruct and reforge magic items as Other Things, and just how raw and natural the "Raw Natural Components" are.
Some of the materials used in construction are just plain used up, not contained in the finished item, so they wouldn't be recoverable using this power. 1/2 of construction cost is the ceiling of the value of the resultant raw materials, not the final value. I'd suspect you wouldn't get back the costs of the materials used to enchant the item, just the actual materials used to make the physical item. A diamond in the hilt you'd keep. (Though a cruel GM might give you a piece of carbon - it's the raw material that diamond was made from, after all. It's just really difficult to transform back.) Diamond dust consumed while casting a spell over the blade is probably gone for good. Likewise, you wouldn't get a big pile of the charcoal burned in the forge while making a sword, just that little bit of carbon that ended up in the steel alloy.
At no time will you get back expensive materials that aren't present in the finished product, that's a black-letter restriction on polymorph any object.
All of that is largely moot because you're missing a critical point: the power duplicates a spell that is permanent not instantaneous. No matter what the pile of stuff you end up with looks like, it's still the original item - true seeing would still see it that way. You could largely ruin the original by trying to make a new item with the raw materials gained, but the power can be dispelled and leave you with broken bits of the item you started with. Certainly any future attempt to enchant a new item made with bits of the original would have to take into account the original magic, if any, since it still exists. Costs would go up, not down, for using the raw materials gained because of it. (You'd be adding a new enchantment to an existing magical item.)
All of that said, this power might be quite useful in finding out the secret recipe for a food product, since you can literally unmake a cake. ;)
bittergeek brings up a good point. I would have vastly preferred it if this power had been instantaneous, not permanent.
Ken
I dispel your preference...
I'll chime in and agree, this power should be instantaneous. I'll even go so far as to assume that the author who wrote the ability didn't grasp the subtle differences (or temporarily overlooked them) and used the word "Permanent" where he should have, and probably meant to, said "Instantaneous".
I have a hard time believing that the creative mind who envisioned this very interesting power carried the vision through to the 5th level cleric/druid/wizard who wanders by and touches the pile of rubble with Dispel Magic and watches it reform itself back into the building it used to be.
I expect this one will make the errata some day, if it isn't already corrected in the final release product. It's definitely making my houserules list (for the 1 in a million chance that one of my players wants to make a nature oracle).
On the other hand, maybe it was deliberate. Maybe someone said "Wait! A nature's Oracle can reduce an entire village to rubble in a week or two, and can turn a whole city to rubble in a year, more or less. And this magic is so powerful that the only way to reverse it is with a Wish? Bah! We need to make it Permanent instead of Instantaneous so that people can fix the damage this Oracle might cause!"
I imagine turning a magical sword into its raw component parts would leave behind some iron ingots and a few energon cubes. :D
(In all seriousness though, you would most likely be left with 1/3 the cost of a mundane lognsword in raw materials.)
All of that said, this power might be quite useful in finding out the secret recipe for a food product, since you can literally unmake a cake. ;)
On the other hand, maybe it was deliberate. Maybe someone said "Wait! A nature's Oracle can reduce an entire village to rubble in a week or two, and can turn a whole city to rubble in a year, more or less. And this magic is so powerful that the only way to reverse it is with a Wish? Bah! We need to make it Permanent instead of Instantaneous so that people can fix the damage this Oracle might cause!"
I don't really understand why the ability requires 11th level in the case that these things are all it does, though. Unmaking a cake to find the ingredients? You could be casting spells like Legend Lore at 11th level. And destroying a city over the course of a year? I'm sure there is magic that would do that both faster and more permanently.
I dig the idea that you could use it to destroy carriage wheels and the like, but the idea that they aren't "really" destroyed and would still show as whole under True Seeing is weird and makes me uncomfortable.
Since the description doesn't indicate needing to touch it, I guess the duration "permanent" instead of "instantaneous" means that it's like sundering an enemies weapons, only you don't lose the weapon as loot because can put it back together after the fight.
Still, though... I wish it was clearer on wtf you're supposed to be use it for.
I think it's weird that all items seem to get a save, regardless of whether or not it is attended, or if it is magical or mundane.
I thought it was only attended and/or magical items that ever got saves. A mundane table in a bar should NOT get a save if you ask me. (What would the modifier even be?)
Yes, there is plenty of weird where this ability is concerned.