How do monster templates interact with the Monster as PC guidelines?
I have a player who wants to be a half-fiend drow in a 16th-level game, but I can't think of a sensible way to determine how many class levels he would have. It's easy for monsters with racial HD. You just use the CR to figure out what group they would be in then give them a few bonus class levels based on their CR. (For example, a minotaur in a 16th-level party would have 6 racial hit dice and 14 class levels.) Adding templates to such monstrous PCs is still easy as you just recalculate using the new adjusted CR (so a half fiend minotaur in a 16th-level party would have 13 class levels.)
However, when dealing with monsters that don't have racial hit dice, it gets somewhat harder to determine. The book clearly says what level group some of them should start in (such as drow for example), but since their CR is based off their class levels, the monster character guidelines don't really apply to them. Is a drow that starts in a second level group always going to be 1 class level behind? If so, I might as well play a true monster and end up with a more powerful character. Why would I want to play a 15th-level drow when I could play a minotaur HD 6/class 14? Adding a template to such creatures (that is, those without racial HD) only makes things more confusing. What level should a half-fiend drow start at? Do they gain bonus levels like some monsters? What if a PC spellcaster became a lich, or contracted lycanthropy? How does this effect their progression if it does so at all? Are they just going to be more powerful than their peers from that point on?
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first you have to remember that the XP separating level 1 and 2 is much smaller than 16 and 15. As the party levels up that small difference in XP won't matter hardly at all. Certainly by 15th level the drow would be the same level as the party, just a thousand or two XP apart. When each monster is awarding 51,000 XP, divided by 4-6 PCs, that is a trivial amount.
If the game is already at 16th level, I would, personally, have him come in at 15th level, and run from there. In a few levels he will catch up. This is assuming he was already in the group to begin with and is just creating a new character. That is what I do to any player making a new character for the game, 1 level behind the rest.
For a new player to the group I would let him come in at 3/4 of the way to 16. He'll catch up even faster that way.
I don't think that at that level any advantages he has are enough to worry about unbalancing anything.
I don't think that at that level any advantages he has are enough to worry about unbalancing anything.Agree. The benefits of a half-fiend drow fade by 9th or 10th level. At 15th level, that drow is barely discernable from a human of the same level - aside from appearance.
What about a noble drow?
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What about a noble drow?
'Bout the only thing a noble drow has over a regular drow (at that level) is decent spell resistance, but he's already getting that from half-fiend.
I guess, after thinking about this some more, half-fiend is still *kind of* relevant no matter the level, but certainly not worth being a level behind for (unless you're a strict GM). Maybe give the core race characters an extra feat.
In a 3.0 campaign, I once made a half-dragon sorcerer. The template gave me natural armor, awesome staring CHA, a breath weapon, bonus HP, and immunity to fire. I started play at 4th level with a handful of other 4th level core characters, and I rocked. Other players grumbled that I was so powerful
By the time I was 10th level I was ready to retire my weak character. The breath weapon was useless at that level (not much more dangerous than burning hands), the AC was worthless (everything could hit me anyway), and the little bit of bonus HP was negligible (if a monster got to me, I was going to die just as easily as a human sorcerer).
The only thing that really helped me at that level was the higher CHA which made my save DCs harder for the enemy to save, but that was definitely not worth losing 3 levels.
Now, that was in 3.0 where I could never catch up in XP. If we played to 100th level, I would have been 3 levels behind everyone. Come to think of it, this may have been because we were all misreading the XP rules at the time. But that's not the point.
The point is, even at 13/10th level, a template that looks very nice to a low-level character was almost useless, and not worth losing 3 levels. Maybe 1, but not 3. And you're proposing an even higher level game, making the lost level(s) even less worth it.
I wouldn't take more than 1 level from this player.
As I am looking at the half-dragon in the bestiary RPG it has +2CR at all levels, which is a better method than it was in 3.0 and it has +6 on con and +4 on natural armor which makes up for lost hp easily, breath weapon damage increase by level, you got immunities +8 str, +2 int and + 2cha, dark vision and low light vision and you got wings. It seems to me to make up for two lost levels to be honest.
You have to consider your weaknesses carefully and build for it, but in no way I think it is underpowered.
For a half-fiend / noble drow I'd prolly increase CR by 3 instead of 4, because half -fiend is a bit of a border case CR boost and has some crossover with drow SR, darkvision, darkness and poison use is quite useless. Still a 13th lvl with all this extra stuff it grants should be worthwhile.
It's easy for monsters with racial HD. You just use the CR to figure out what group they would be in then give them a few bonus class levels based on their CR. (For example, a minotaur in a 16th-level party would have 6 racial hit dice and 14 class levels.)
The Core Rulebook doesn't see eye-to-eye with the Bestiary on this issue, actually. On page 406 it states that you use racial HD rather than CR as a guideline, and allow players with regular characters to take levels until their HD match that of the highest HD character in the party.
Has Paizo stated clearly which of the two should be used? I assume the Bestiary, since it was released later, but it is odd that the two books state completely different rules for this.
It's easy for monsters with racial HD. You just use the CR to figure out what group they would be in then give them a few bonus class levels based on their CR. (For example, a minotaur in a 16th-level party would have 6 racial hit dice and 14 class levels.)The Core Rulebook doesn't see eye-to-eye with the Bestiary on this issue, actually. On page 406 it states that you use racial HD rather than CR as a guideline, and allow players with regular characters to take levels until their HD match that of the highest HD character in the party.
Has Paizo stated clearly which of the two should be used? I assume the Bestiary, since it was released later, but it is odd that the two books state completely different rules for this.
Which do you think is more balanced?
The party already has a human druid 16, a half-elf diviner 4/rogue 1/assassin 1/arcane trickster 10, and a janni (6 HD) sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 8.
By the rules you point out, one of these characters would be a 20th-level equivalent rather than 16th.
EDIT: Also, do the ability modifiers for a noble drow stack with those of the normal drow? The description says they get everything the normal drow gets AND the additional noble traits. Does that mean that a noble drow has +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, -4 Con?
Which do you think is more balanced?
I think the Bestiary method probably ends up at a more accurate representation of what you gain from using a monstrous race rather than a regular PC race.
In either case, both methods are far superior to the HD+LA method of 3.5, which made monstrous races completely unplayable :)
EDIT: Also, do the ability modifiers for a noble drow stack with those of the normal drow? The description says they get everything the normal drow gets AND the additional noble traits. Does that mean that a noble drow has +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, -4 Con?
No, the section about ability score modifiers for Noble Drow characters states that "these ability score modifiers replace the standard drow ability score modifiers".
The player in question just noticed that noble drow can switch out spell-like abilities. He wants to switch out two of the 1st-level spell-like abilities in order to get cure light wounds and magic missile at will.
How is that not broken?
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The player in question just noticed that noble drow can switch out spell-like abilities. He wants to switch out two of the 1st-level spell-like abilities in order to get cure light wounds and magic missile at will.
How is that not broken?
There is nothing about switching out SLAs in the Drow Noble bestiary entry.
There is nothing about switching out SLAs in the Drow Noble bestiary entry.
"In some cases, a drow noble's spell-like abilities might vary, although the level of a particular spell-like ability does not."
I would say that is completely up to the DM if he allows him to be such a special special drow. I think I would allow it, in Drow of the Underdark there are so many tests Lolth likes to give out to her followers, and someone who is that gifted will attract a lot of attention. :D Not to mention that she will have special assignments for him and be really mad if he decides to go rogue..... :D
There is nothing about switching out SLAs in the Drow Noble bestiary entry."In some cases, a drow noble's spell-like abilities might vary, although the level of a particular spell-like ability does not."
I would say that is completely up to the DM if he allows him to be such a special special drow. I think I would allow it, in Drow of the Underdark there are so many tests Lolth likes to give out to her followers, and someone who is that gifted will attract a lot of attention. :D Not to mention that she will have special assignments for him and be really mad if he decides to go rogue..... :D
Well, looks as though he is gong to go female noble drow wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10. He's citing her affinity with divine and arcane magic as the reason for having different spell-like abilities (sort of like she is physically infused with both kinds of magic or some such).
The Janni seems to be too high by either method.
CR 4 Janni with 14 levels, 4 levels add 2 CR, remaining 10 levels add 10 CR = CR 16. CR for a 16th lvl char is 15.
A noble drow adds 1CR, so she should be 1 lvl lower, swapping spell-like abilities should be ok as long as the DM agrees with them.
The Janni seems to be too high by either method.
CR 4 Janni with 14 levels, 4 levels add 2 CR, remaining 10 levels add 10 CR = CR 16. CR for a 16th lvl char is 15.
I don't think that's how it works.
He is CR 4 with 6 HD. That means he can start in a 4th-level group. For every two class levels the other party members gain, he gains three. However, this "bonus class level" only happens a number of times equal to half his CR (or twice in his case).
So by a strict reading of the Beastiary guidelines, his progression would look something like this:
HD/Class Levels - Class Levels
6/0 - 4
6/1 - 5
6/2 - 6
6/4 - 7
6/5 - 8
6/6 - 9
6/8 - 10
6/9 - 11
6/10 - 12
6/11 - 13
6/12 - 14
6/13 - 15
6/14 - 16
6/15 - 17
6/16 - 18
6/17 - 19
6/18 - 20
The left column (before the dash) is the racial HD/class level breakdown of the Janni while the right column is the normal characters character level. The bold lines indicate the level boost.
EDIT: The player in question wants to know if there are any goggles or similar items in Pathfinder that would let him bypass his light blindness racial trait.
His explanation with the Mystic Theurge isn't very good. Drow spell-like abilities are something that's inherited like the bloodline of a sorcerer should be. Multiclassing in Paladin won't allow you to take the Celestial bloodline when your grandfather was a dragon. However, he could maybe go the other way around. She has an affinity for both kinds of magic represented by her different spell-like abilities, and that's why she became a mystic theurge. By the way, that's almost a reason to allow him the change. Mystic theurge is flavour- but not powerful. Having those two at-wills could balance that out a bit. :D
The Janni seems to be too high by either method.
CR 4 Janni with 14 levels, 4 levels add 2 CR, remaining 10 levels add 10 CR = CR 16. CR for a 16th lvl char is 15.
I don't think that's how it works.
He is CR 4 with 6 HD. That means he can start in a 4th-level group. For every two class levels the other party members gain, he gains three. However, this "bonus class level" only happens a number of times equal to half his CR (or twice in his case).
So by a strict reading of the Beastiary guidelines, his progression would look something like this:
HD/Class Levels - Class Levels
6/0 - 4
6/1 - 5
6/2 - 6
6/4 - 7
6/5 - 8
6/6 - 9
6/8 - 10
6/9 - 11
6/10 - 12
6/11 - 13
6/12 - 14
6/13 - 15
6/14 - 16
6/15 - 17
6/16 - 18
6/17 - 19
6/18 - 20The left column (before the dash) is the racial HD/class level breakdown of the Janni while the right column is the normal characters character level. The bold lines indicate the level boost.
EDIT: The player in question wants to know if there are any goggles or similar items in Pathfinder that would let him bypass his light blindness racial trait.
You are right, that is what it says.. can't help but think that it is flawed though. The pc's should be a lvl higher than the CR of the creature, giving the creature PC ability scores makes up for this easily. The CR of a monster pc should not be higher than a 'normal' PC imo. It creates a silly precedent, to pick more powerful races.
On a side note I would not consider a mystic theurge 3 cleric / 3 wizard / 10 MT to be CR 15 so I do not see much of a problem allowing that as noble drow, which would even it out in my book.
The player in question just noticed that noble drow can switch out spell-like abilities. He wants to switch out two of the 1st-level spell-like abilities in order to get cure light wounds and magic missile at will.
How is that not broken?
The ability to cast cure light wounds at will is extremely powerful, since it means everybody in the party will heal up to full hit points between each encounter, without expending any resources. On the other hand, magic missile is just a damage-dealing spell, and while powerful, doesn't change encounter-balance anywhere near as much.
I would allow the magic missile in my game, but not the cure light wounds.
I am a little late in joining here and I don't have my bestiary handy but I am unsure how a CR 4 creature is the same as a ChL 4 character. Note the CR is a basis of what 4 ChLs of the same # can defeat roughly 4 to 5 times in a day before needing rest...
Now I was not a fan of the 3.0/3.5 edition version for monsters as chars. but I do not think a creature with 6HD and the ability score bonuses and the special abilities of a Genie is equal to a regular level 4 chracter despite wha the CR may say. Now I don't have my Bestiary handy so as I said I cannot be sure what the new rules state but this seems to me that everyone will be playing Monsters as Characters now if CR is equal to starting level.
...this seems to me that everyone will be playing Monsters as Characters now if CR is equal to starting level.
And that has been an increasing theme among the regulars I play with. It used to be we would have no monstrous characters. Now having at least two isn't uncommon.
This is interesting. I wonder what this means for playing a Dragon as a Chracter... hmmm the possiblities begin to form
Camper Joe put up a very reasoned and balanced approach to the half-fiend template that you may find useful.
Link
The CR of a standard character = level - 1 right ?
How come a CR 4 creature with increased stats is supposed to be a good fit for a 4th level party ?
As it is now monster characters often just end up being more powerful, that said groups that allow monster races in their party on a regular basis are not much concerned with balance in party so I guess it works.