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Hi everyone,
I'm playing a nuetral alignment negative energy cleric and have used desecrate+animate dead (6th level caster so up to 24HD creation) to change a cyclops corpse into a bloody skeleton. By RAW, the bloody skel creation cost for a 10HD cyclops is 2x(HD)=20HD, which is within the casting limit. Additionally, it only counts as 10HD for control.
Noting that a bloody skel cyclops has DR5 blunt, fast healing 5, AC22, 65HP, and is deathless (regenerates from death unless actually killed by positive energy), it is almost impossible to kill at our CR level. Additionally, it has a +12 to hit and does 3d6+7 damage with its Great Axe so it can slowly chop away at most anything.
By RAW, it is legal but the actual game effect has been a bit overwhelming for my DM and has been a bit unbalancing for the party. Have I done everything right, or is there any errata out there affecting bloody skeletons and/or animate dead?
If not, the bloody skel template is on a whole seperate level from the other "special" skel types, mainly bacause it ramps with HD (DR and fast healing) and the others don't.
My DM is about to home rule it and all other special skels into non-existance by making them 4x(HD)to create, but before he does I'd like to find out whether I screwed something up or if it is just unbalanced (can we say "optimization") in the rules.
Bel
That looks about right, except for the AC. The AC should be 15 (10 base, +4 armor, +2 natural armor, -1 size). You don't add +2 to the existing natural armor, you change it to +2.
That deathless quality is pretty good for a PC minion.
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A small note; many DM's would argue animating dead is an evil act and will slowly begin to corrupt your character as he uses negative energy to bring back the dead. The spell does have the evil descriptor.
I completely disagree a party of 6th level characters could not kill something with a meager 5 points of damage reduction, AC22 (I can get that at first level, come on) and 65HP. Two rounds tops for most 6th level parties.
RAW you have everything correct; but paid double the cost to animate it in Black Onyx Gems etc. This is perfectly reasonable to me; it cost you twice as much to have a somewhat renewable skeleton. Note; both bless spells and holy water are pretty common and if it dies in the area of a Bless spell (quite likely in combat) it's gone forever.
Undead specialist cleric's were already very powerful anyway, I play them sometimes and to not overshadow the party I often leave minion undead doing various tasks and just take Barry my Gray Render for a jaunt with the party instead.
On a final note, if your DM seriously isn't happy with it; a much easier and fairer fix is for the Undead to count as 20HD for control. I ask, how are you controlling it at the moment? You can't control more than your cleric level by virtue of the Command Undead feat; so you must be expending Command Undead spells to control it. Its a fair investment in gold and spells, i'd have no issue with this in my game.
I ask, how are you controlling it at the moment?
From Animate Dead:
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely."
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That looks about right, except for the AC. The AC should be 15 (10 base, +4 armor, +2 natural armor, -1 size). You don't add +2 to the existing natural armor, you change it to +2.
That deathless quality is pretty good for a PC minion.
Hogarth,
Thanks for the correction. I looked at the actual wording ("Natural armor bonus changes as follows:") and must say that it not the best wording as to whether the old Natural Armor is replaced or is added to, but reading it in that light, I would have to lean toward replacement. Simple correction, get some full plate armor for it.Thanks,
Bel
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A small note; many DM's would argue animating dead is an evil act and will slowly begin to corrupt your character as he uses negative energy to bring back the dead. The spell does have the evil descriptor.
I completely disagree a party of 6th level characters could not kill something with a meager 5 points of damage reduction, AC22 (I can get that at first level, come on) and 65HP. Two rounds tops for most 6th level parties.
RAW you have everything correct; but paid double the cost to animate it in Black Onyx Gems etc. This is perfectly reasonable to me; it cost you twice as much to have a somewhat renewable skeleton. Note; both bless spells and holy water are pretty common and if it dies in the area of a Bless spell (quite likely in combat) it's gone forever.
Undead specialist cleric's were already very powerful anyway, I play them sometimes and to not overshadow the party I often leave minion undead doing various tasks and just take Barry my Gray Render for a jaunt with the party instead.
On a final note, if your DM seriously isn't happy with it; a much easier and fairer fix is for the Undead to count as 20HD for control. I ask, how are you controlling it at the moment? You can't control more than your cleric level by virtue of the Command Undead feat; so you must be expending Command Undead spells to control it. Its a fair investment in gold and spells, i'd have no issue with this in my game.
Alexander,
I gotta disagree with you for 2 reasons. First, the fast healing and the DR work together so you effectively have DR10. Second, this guy is being supported by my character and the rest of the party is actively fighting the bad guys so the bad guys can't exactly team up on him.Bel
That looks about right, except for the AC. The AC should be 15 (10 base, +4 armor, +2 natural armor, -1 size). You don't add +2 to the existing natural armor, you change it to +2.
That deathless quality is pretty good for a PC minion.
Hogarth,
Thanks for the correction. I looked at the actual wording ("Natural armor bonus changes as follows:") and must say that it not the best wording as to whether the old Natural Armor is replaced or is added to, but reading it in that light, I would have to lean toward replacement.
I agree that it's worded poorly, especially compared to the AC section of the zombie template.
Simple correction, get some full plate armor for it.
Thanks,
Bel
Cyclopes aren't proficient with heavy armor so it would suffer a heavy non-proficiency penalty. A breastplate would work, though; that would raise the AC to 17.
My wifes character has been toting around a bloody Skeleton Ogre which has very comparable stats, it is quite a nice tool but its not made her anywhere close to outpowering the sorc or barbarian. Also its size sometimes keeps it or someone else out of combat.
DR5 and Fast heal 5 are not comparable to DR 10. The fast heal removes 5 hp once. With iterative attacks or multiple foes that is not applied mutliple times like DR would be.
Ask yourself is the bloodied skeleton actually that much better in combat than the regular skeleton.
20HP(from cha)
5 fast healing
4 channel resist
Deathless has no benifit in combat
the 20hp and fast heal 5 is usually only going to buy it an extra round of life agianst an enncounter balanced for 6th level players.
The huge benifit is you pay twice as much for it in onyx and then it will come back after it gets beaten down most the time.
It's a powerful minion, but far from game-breaking. My level 11 character has an ettin bloody skeleton, and while it's a pretty decent combatant, it pales compared to the party's figher (as it should).
And don't forget that undead minions carry some big risks. All it takes is an enemy cleric to rebuke it or enemy caster to use command undead on it and suddenly your powerful minion is an enemy! Good clerics can likewise turn or destroy it.
If you still think it's too powerful, you could always house rule that no single creature you animate can have more HD than your caster level.
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It's a powerful minion, but far from game-breaking. My level 11 character has an ettin bloody skeleton, and while it's a pretty decent combatant, it pales compared to the party's figher (as it should).
And don't forget that undead minions carry some big risks. All it takes is an enemy cleric to rebuke it or enemy caster to use command undead on it and suddenly your powerful minion is an enemy! Good clerics can likewise turn or destroy it.
If you still think it's too powerful, you could always house rule that no single creature you animate can have more HD than your caster level.
Big difference between a 6th level party and an 11th level party though. Also note that by RAW, he only takes up 10HD of control and I could add quite a number of other bloody skels to help out if I wanted.
I'm also very aware of the risks but then my character development has been focused toward Command Undead and anything to aid it, so I'm trying to minimize them. Still randomness in the d20 roll can make for a bad situation.
Thanks for the comments.
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My wifes character has been toting around a bloody Skeleton Ogre which has very comparable stats, it is quite a nice tool but its not made her anywhere close to outpowering the sorc or barbarian. Also its size sometimes keeps it or someone else out of combat.
DR5 and Fast heal 5 are not comparable to DR 10. The fast heal removes 5 hp once. With iterative attacks or multiple foes that is not applied mutliple times like DR would be.
Ask yourself is the bloodied skeleton actually that much better in combat than the regular skeleton.
20HP(from cha)
5 fast healing
4 channel resist
Deathless has no benifit in combatthe 20hp and fast heal 5 is usually only going to buy it an extra round of life agianst an enncounter balanced for 6th level players.
The huge benifit is you pay twice as much for it in onyx and then it will come back after it gets beaten down most the time.
I agree that offensively it isn't a gamebreaker and without a supporting cast it wouldn't last long but with the right tactics it can be huge; and yes, the deathless feature is the best part of it.
Thanks for the comment