After dusting off my copy of PHB2, I recently sat down and flipped through it to see what ideas I could come up with.
I have always had a fondness for the Combat Form Feats on pages 86-88. As DM/GM for my group however, I've yet to have a chance to use them in a game. (sniffle)
Has anyone used these feats for a Pathfinder Fighter?
If nobody has used the Combat Form feats... what modifications would we make to them to adjust them for Pathfinder?
Combat Defense I could see just having it give a bonus to dodge. Combat Stability would just give a flat +4 bonus to combat maneuvers.
Any other changes required?
Below is an example of the feat progression of a generic Fighter who has selected all the Combat form feats at the level they are available. I've also filled the selection of the obligatory Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions thereof.
What feats would be appropriate as fill-ins and what changes would the good citizens of these boards suggest?
Human Fighter 20
1 Combat Focus, EWP (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
2 Dodge
3 Combat Stability
4 Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
5
6 Combat Defense
7
8 Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
9 Combat Vigor
10
11
12 Combat Awareness
13 Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword
14
15 Combat Strike
16
17
18
19
20
*Hello? ... Anyone?!?
Does nobody else think that getting Fast healing 4 by 9th level is a good thing for a Fighter?
Well, I don't see how it could be a bad thing lol.
To be honest, none of my players, or I, have ever used CF feats. They just don't appeal to me or any of my group. It's more that they're just glossed over, and passed by, than anything else really.
Such a shame that. They are a great way of improving what a fighter does best. Honestly though... they'd also be good for just about anyone else as well. A Monk would pick them up a little later but they would be a good addition.
I worked on a complete overhaul of these feats. My reason for this: stuff like Combat Stability was (IMO) made to allow normal characters to deal with the absurd modifiers big creatures got to grapple, trip, etc. I don't think this is needed as badly in Pathfinder. Also, since dodge bonuses go to CMD, this combination would lead to CMDs well beyond anything reasonable (assuming Combat Defense and Combat Stability).
So, I reworked them. I dropped Combat Stability and altered the rest. I added some so that there were a total of 8. I added a sencond tier of benefits.
I won't bore you with my conversions, but to answer your question: they need some updating if you're going to use them.
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I worked on a complete overhaul of these feats. My reason for this: stuff like Combat Stability was (IMO) made to allow normal characters to deal with the absurd modifiers big creatures got to grapple, trip, etc. I don't think this is needed as badly in Pathfinder. Also, since dodge bonuses go to CMD, this combination would lead to CMDs well beyond anything reasonable (assuming Combat Defense and Combat Stability).
So, I reworked them. I dropped Combat Stability and altered the rest. I added some so that there were a total of 8. I added a sencond tier of benefits.
I won't bore you with my conversions, but to answer your question: they need some updating if you're going to use them.
But I want to see your conversions you can email them too oberontheelfking@gmail.com if you would sir
But I want to see your conversions you can email them too oberontheelfking@gmail.com if you would sir
I appreciate the interest. It's part of a long list of converted feats. I'll email you the whole thing, but I won't have access to it 'til I'm off work (about 9 hours). Until then, I'll try to recall them:
1st tier - benefit from feat alone. 2nd tier - benefit @ 4 total Combat Form feats. 3rd tier - benefit @ 8 (all) Combat Form feats.
Combat Focus: 1st tier - +2 Will saves, 2nd tier = +4 Will saves, 3rd tier - +6 Will saves.
Combat Defense: 1st tier - +1 dodge bonus to AC, 2nd tier - +2 dodge bonus to AC, 3rd tier - +3 dodge bonus to AC. Note that this also increases CMD.
Combat Awareness: 1st tier - Know HP of adjacent creatures, 2nd tier - Blindsight out to 5 feet, 3rd tier - Uncanny Dodge (like a rogue).
Combat Stability - removed
Combat Vigor - 1st tier - Fast Healing 2, 2nd tier - Fast Healing 5, 3rd tier - Fast Healing 10.
Combat Strike - Gain a bonus on attack and damage equal to the number of Combat Form feats you have.
Combat Form Specialization* - Gain a bonus on the first attack you make in each encounter equal to the number of Combat Form feats you have. Note that this feat is intended to help get you into your "focus."
Combat Resilence* - 1st tier - Damage Reduction 1/-, 2nd tier - Damage Reduction 3/-, 3rd tier - Damage Reduction 5/-.
Combat Evasion* - 1st tier - Wind Stance applies to all attacks (not just ranged ones), 2nd tier - Gain Evasion if in light or no armor, 3rd tier - Gain Improved Evasion if in light or no armor.
*new Combat Form feats. Prereqs as follows:
Combat Form Specialization: Wis 13, Combat Focus
Combat Resilence: Wis 13, Combat Focus, Toughness
Combat Evasion: Wis 13, Combat Defense, Wind Stance
So, I've added some potent stuff, but added more requisites. To get all the earth-shattering abilities from all these feats takes a total of 12 feats. Not easy for most classes to do, making it ideal for a fighter.
Thoughts?
Wow!
Nice ideas and way to *beef 'em up* while you're at it!
Honestly ... I like it. It really adds a bit of missing "neat stuff" to the boring old Fighter + Feat now (even beyond the wpn/armor training, too). Very nice way to add flavor, and at (full cost) 12 feats ... this *is* no small investment at all (do the 12 count the wpn focus/spec feats?). It'll take a LONG time to get to the top, and it'll take a LOT of your character resources to get there (ie: feats).
I'll give more thoughts as I think about it more, but initially - this is all first impression.
*applauds loudly*
The 12 feats are: Dodge, Blind-Fight, Wind Stance, Toughness and the 8 Combat Form feat above. So, it's a pretty signifigant investment to get all the perks.
After dusting off my copy of PHB2, I recently sat down and flipped through it to see what ideas I could come up with.
I have always had a fondness for the Combat Form Feats on pages 86-88. As DM/GM for my group however, I've yet to have a chance to use them in a game. (sniffle)
Has anyone used these feats for a Pathfinder Fighter?
I always liked the 'zen' concept of the combat form feats but sadly they always seemed a little under powered for the investment.
That said, they are all going on my current Hobgoblin Archer charater in my Ref's campaign eventually for flavor as he advances.
I look forward to seeing how they work.
After dusting off my copy of PHB2, I recently sat down and flipped through it to see what ideas I could come up with.
I have always had a fondness for the Combat Form Feats on pages 86-88. As DM/GM for my group however, I've yet to have a chance to use them in a game. (sniffle)
Has anyone used these feats for a Pathfinder Fighter?
I always liked the 'zen' concept of the combat form feats but sadly they always seemed a little under powered for the investment.
That said, they are all going on my current Hobgoblin Archer charater in my Ref's campaign eventually for flavor as he advances.
I look forward to seeing how they work.
I hope it goes well.
I often use the combat form feats
Combat Focus
Combat Stability
Combat Vigorand sometimes
Combat Awareness
Combat StrikeThe first 3 I nearly always take, including Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. Nothing wrong with +6 to will and a free re roll.
Combat Stability is a no brainer.
Combat vigor is not that great (4 fast healing is ok but dr is better as it reduces EVERY hit, fast healing only adds 4 per round)The other 2 are nice if I have room, mostly because knowing whom to use combat strike and when is awesome. Combat strike can end encounters as with +5 to a full attack and damage can garuntee every hit and add another 20 damage over 4 attacks, the real gain is hitting with every iterative. Blindsight is nice for beating darkness and miss chance (the most common caster defences.)
I don't use combat defence as it would need alteration (maybe add +1 to dodge and improve to +2 if you have more than 3 feats)
These are best taken on a 2h fighter as they do chew feat room.
You make some great points. I just want to say however... that while DR is indeed nice, it only reduces PHYSICAL attacks. Magic bypasses DR. Having some of both is the best defense.
I've found that as soon as you can include some form of self-heal on the party fighter, it helps conserve party resources and lets the Cleric focus on other actions in combat. This is why I generally would like to also take a feat called "Faster Healing".
You make some great points. I just want to say however... that while DR is indeed nice, it only reduces PHYSICAL attacks. Magic bypasses DR. Having some of both is the best defense.
You're exactly right here. Different defenses work well in different situations. While some DR is nice against hitters, fast healing is better against AoE casters.
A little bit of each kind of defense goes a long way toward versatility. High HP, high AC, DR, miss chance, energy resistance, SR (hard to come by), and fast healing. Get what you can. Too much of one leaves you open when it's not suited.
You make some great points. I just want to say however... that while DR is indeed nice, it only reduces PHYSICAL attacks. Magic bypasses DR. Having some of both is the best defense.You're exactly right here. Different defenses work well in different situations. While some DR is nice against hitters, fast healing is better against AoE casters.
A little bit of each kind of defense goes a long way toward versatility. High HP, high AC, DR, miss chance, energy resistance, SR (hard to come by), and fast healing. Get what you can. Too much of one leaves you open when it's not suited.
Miss Chance, High AC, and Spell Resistance (easily gained from any 9th level cleric) all prevent damage or effects from being taken. Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance are both ways to reduce the damage taken. Large amounts of HP, Fast Healing, Heal Checks, and Healing Magic all cover the damage after it has happened. In a way this covers before, during, and after.
I converted Combat Vigor to PF by it giving you stackable temporary hit points that disappeared at the end of the encounter. It never sat well with me that you could actually end up with higher hit points at the end of a combat than you started just by fighting.
I converted Combat Vigor to PF by it giving you stackable temporary hit points that disappeared at the end of the encounter. It never sat well with me that you could actually end up with higher hit points at the end of a combat than you started just by fighting.
Ah... but going off of that method you "magically" end up going through a fight without a scratch even when you've be cut, stabbed, or even worse fire-balled. In the end, it works out the same right?
I like to think of the fast healing granted by Combat Vigor as a more time released form of Wholeness of Body. You are focusing your inner energies to speed up your natural healing.
Your focus is keyed off of that first strike... and then the adrenal surge sends you into a "bullet-time" as it were. Your brain activity speeds up making it seem like time slows and fresh oxygenated blood rushes to every part of your body increasing your vigor.
- Focus allows you to shrug off distraction
- You are able to quickly counter attacks meant to unbalance you
- You quickly predict and dodge enemy attacks
- Mental control allows you to better direct your bodies natural healing
- Your senses are sharpened
- Finally you are able to focus and expend all your energy in a critical instant
I personally would propose Combat Stability give a +4/+8 bonus to CMD, and Combat Defense to grant a +1/+2 bonus to AC. I'd keep the rest pretty much as is.
You wanna add HP another way-
If going TWF'r add MartialStance- Martail Spirit to your build. You'll get 2 HP per effective strike. That's around 8 possibly 10 per full attack by the time you get Grt TWF.
The same stance on a 2 Handed Fighter who learns Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz is worth 4 to 6 HP on a full attack or a sspring attack.
Cheers.
Stacked on top of the Fast Healing this is quite useful...
I'll have to look in Tome of Magic and see if Truenaming might provide another method to activate some healing.
I converted Combat Vigor to PF by it giving you stackable temporary hit points that disappeared at the end of the encounter. It never sat well with me that you could actually end up with higher hit points at the end of a combat than you started just by fighting.Ah... but going off of that method you "magically" end up going through a fight without a scratch even when you've be cut, stabbed, or even worse fire-balled. In the end, it works out the same right?
I like to think of the fast healing granted by Combat Vigor as a more time released form of Wholeness of Body. You are focusing your inner energies to speed up your natural healing.
Your focus is keyed off of that first strike... and then the adrenal surge sends you into a "bullet-time" as it were. Your brain activity speeds up making it seem like time slows and fresh oxygenated blood rushes to every part of your body increasing your vigor.
That's not what normally happens in practice. But yes, it works out the same MINUS the fact that you can actually heal yourself if the damage you take doesn't outpace the amount of fast healing you receive over the course of your focus. It just solves a lot of abuse.
The way I envision it, with the temp HP concept, you turn those cuts, stabs, and fireball burns into bruises, scratches, and singes... i.e. when you're in your focus, you non-magically reduce the lethality of attacks because you are in the zone. For example, lets pretend you have 45 hps:
Round:
1) You hit and get your focus. You have 49 hps (45 reg + 4 temp). Later in the round you get hit for 6 hp damage. You now have 43 hp.
2) On your turn you get 4 more temp hp. You now have 47 hp. You don't get hit this round.
3) On your turn, you get 4 more temp hp. You now have 51 hp. You get hit later in the round for 9hp damage. You now have 42 hp.
4, 5 & 6) On each turn you get 4 temp hp bringing your total to 54 hp (42 regular + 12 temporary). You don't get hit on any of these rounds and the battle ends on turn 6. Your temporary hp disappear at the end of the encounter, so you're left with 42 hp. So you definitely get nicked up under this version on any attack that does more than your current temp hp.
That's not what normally happens in practice. But yes, it works out the same MINUS the fact that you can actually heal yourself if the damage you take doesn't outpace the amount of fast healing you receive over the course of your focus. It just solves a lot of abuse.The way I envision it, with the temp HP concept, you turn those cuts, stabs, and fireball burns into bruises, scratches, and singes... i.e. when you're in your focus, you non-magically reduce the lethality of attacks because you are in the zone. For example, lets pretend you have 45 hps:
Round:
1) You hit and get your focus. You have 49 hps (45 reg + 4 temp). Later in the round you get hit for 6 hp damage. You now have 43 hp.
2) On your turn you get 4 more temp hp. You now have 47 hp. You don't get hit this round.
3) On your turn, you get 4 more temp hp. You now have 51 hp. You get hit later in the round for 9hp damage. You now have 42 hp.
4, 5 & 6) On each turn you get 4 temp hp bringing your total to 54 hp (42 regular + 12 temporary). You don't get hit on any of...
Hmm...Seems like allot of extra addition and subtraction back and forth. Although, if it works for you, then more power to you.
However...
- You cannot get the Combat Vigor till 9th level at the earliest.
- The average damage of most CR 9 encounters is far above 4hp/round.
- Generally you'd have three encounters a day.
- A 9th level Human Fighter would have 10 feats.
- A 15th level Human Fighter would have 16 feats.
For comparison...
A 9th level Cleric (with a 18 CHA and the Extra Channel feat) can channel energy for 5d6 (5-30) points of healing 9 times a day in a 30-foot burst. Given the usual party of 4, thats effectively (20-120) points of healing. If we figure on 3 combat encounters the cleric could channel 3 times per encounter for a total of 15d6 or (15-90) points of healing to multiple creatures per encounter.
A 9th level Monk (with a 18 WIS and the Extra Ki feat 3 times) will have a Ki Pool of 14 points and can use Wholeness of Body 7 times to heal 9 HP each use for a total of 63 points of healing. Spread over 3 encounters that'd be roughly 18 points of healing for two encounters and 25 points of healing for the third.
A level 15 Monk (with a 24 WIS and Extra Ki 6 times) would have a Ki Pool of 26 points and could use Wholeness of Body 13 times to heal 15 each use for a total of 195 points of healing. Spread over 3 encounters that'd be roughly 60 points for two encounters and 75 for the third.
you've just made a point about how 'ok' not 'great' it is. honestly fast healing is really only good in a ring and continueous, most fights don't last 10+ rounds (though there's no reason you can't remain pumped for the duration after the encounter- i can't recall the book mentioning losing focus) with just 3 feats that's 52 points of healing at level 9, good for a fighter at nine, but that's as good as it gets. At higher levels you'll get hit by things that nearly do that much damage. It basically negates a full attack when you first get it, but only 1 to 1.5 hits at 20. I moslty take it to bump combat fcs, stability.
Don't get me wrong it is nice, but wouldn,t make it into any of my builds but a 2handed fighter.
Combat Focus itself does not count for additional duration thus it is only 12 rounds or 48 points of healing for the cost of 3 feats. I laid it all out to show that it really is fairly balanced and that for the same cost in feats you can already do something along the same lines, as far as amount of healing, with a Monk. The fact that you described it as "OK" shows how balanced it is. You'll notice I never said it was "Greeeeaaat!" :)
It is not designed to replace healing altogether but it does help stretch party resources when the meat sponge does have some self repair. Combined with the feat "Faster Healing" from Complete Warrior and it'll help increase your survivability. Pick up some Adamantine Armor for some DR and it becomes more useful.
Absolutely- On a 2hander i absolutely take it. The sum of the 3- +4 will, +8CMD, fast heal 4 is a good deal. I'd like to try it with other builds but
1 feats are rarer
2 Most of the other melee classes have healing accessIn any case they were designed for fighters (PHB2 feats were great for fighters- crushing strike, slashing flurry, melee wpn mastery etc) so it does it's job
Though they are designed for Fighters I'd say that the Fast Healing could mesh well with the Barbarians DR... HMM.
wouldn't rage prevent using these feats- the fluff text speaks about focus, they kinda have a zen-ness about them....
Rage is fairly specific about what it does not allow...
I see nothing in the combat form feats that specify you need to maintain them in any way or require any time of action at all really aside from smacking your opponent...
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Has anyone used these feats for a Pathfinder Fighter?
PHB2 is virtually *required* for playing a Fighter.
Between the Combat Form feats, Steadfast Determination, Short Haft (required for Glaives, y'know), Melee Weapon Mastery, and Armor Specialization, my Fighter is pretty badass. In a few levels, I'll have Slashing Flurry and Weapon Supremacy.
I'm using the Combat Form Feats more or less as written in my game. Combat Focus is a great bonus to my PC's Will save (though it's already my best save) and Combat Stability is a +8 bonus to CMD (it's only come up a few times). Combat Vigor is great, though; +4 HP every round after I tag someone? I've finished more than a few fights completely healed thanks to that.
I was going to take Combat Strike, but I'm not a fan of single-hit stuff. I was also gonna take Combat Awareness, but really, bad guys are either fighting me or dead, so I don't care what their HP is.
Overall, PHB2 is a goldmine. I can't wait to build a character with Rapid Blitz. :)