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I read through this module and I guess I just don't get why the author expects the characters to spend any time exposed to the dragons. With 9th level magic, I see them using etherealness extensively to scout the entire area and retreating to a magnificent mansion between trips. Why would the characters venture out to any of the places by paths upon which the dragons or giants could reach them? They could also wind walk and easily outmaneuver and out-fly any dragon that approached them. I know they cannot access the vault until they have dropped its wards, but really, how hard is it going to be to discover the place where they can't get into ethereally?
This problem of apparently not understanding the character's abilities also occurred in LoLR with the Doomshroud tree and the nightmare beast. My group defeated the tree in 5 rounds without taking a point of damage or suffering any ill effect and the nightmare beast was hemmed in by a single wall of force that was open a few feet at the top; the party just hovered up there and killed the creature with no risk. They used exactly the same tactic to kill the huge aspect of the overgod in the Prince of Redhand and only one member was threatened because he was ahead scouting and took a bit of a beating before escaping.
It seems like the authors are making systemic mistakes by missing these basic uses of the core spells. Maybe I am just missing something?
I had this exact same problem. I let it slide in LoLR, (nightmare beast spent the entire combat dazed from radiant assault but in KoTR, they started in with the old wind walking trick. Then I remembered that their is an NPC allied with the dragons that has a helm of Teleportation and access to Dragotha, who has many magical items in his hoard. Once the dragons started using the groups own tricks against them, (specifically wind walking right along with them, and rematerializing at the same time) they adopted a more traditional approach. That being said, my group is large (7 pcs) and did not have 9th level spells at the start.
Also remember that their is a fairly strict time limit and if wind walk or whatever would get dispelled, they might not cast it again to conserve spells.
I made a point in that they have to find the phylactery before the dragons, and that these would not stop for resting. The difficulty of this adventure thus lies in resource management. Etherealness can help, but once you are ethereal, you cannot interact with NPCs, let alone pick up the required keys. So yeah, a good start, but whoe the the party that has spend all their high level magic when Brazzemal shows up. With all other dragons supporting him.
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Well I think the time limit will actually push the characters to take this very approach. Why muck about in the middle of a battle trying to sort things out when time is of the essence?
I have 6 PCs, 2 are 17th level wizards and the other is a 17th level cleric, so even if I had 3 PC's the issue is the same. This means they have about 51 minutes of etherealness between the three of them and each caster can make all the others ethereal with their casting. That will give each member of the group around 1.5 miles of ethereal exploration at the half-speed travel rate on the ethereal plane. Since the entire city is a mere 850ft long they can pass through the entire city in about 3 minutes per pass slowly working their way back and forth from the highest levels to the lowest. I suspect what they will do is travel from the material plane version of Tigalos to Magepoint where they will research Kongin-Thulnir then wind walk there and go ethereal someplace just outside the siege. Even if Necrozyte attacks, they will forgo the fight and vanish the next round.
Given this, I think it is about 85% likely they will discover the vault on this exploration, as each person will travel to a likely area to determine what they can see even if they do not spread out ethereally and just walk in parallel to scour the city in a rigorous fashion. As they are always under a telepathic bond, they can communicate as needed and then agree to meet back up "someplace out of the way" one of them discovered to recast etherealness and explore further.
I believe the only counter to this is to have the dragons figure out that the phylactery is hidden in the Citadel just about the same time the characters do, because once they find the vault (and they will - the Citadel is indeed impressive from the air and will be a place they are certain to search), they will form up just outside the door and try a disjunction to pierce the ward. I can see this adventure taking an hour tops under these circumstances. I guess Brazzemal can discover them just as they drop the ward; he will have a round or two to blast his way in before they have enough courage to approach the phylactery and teleport away. Still, its going to be a footrace.
As far as having the dragons use wind walk, I doubt the characters will even be spotted by the dragons. They tend to travel at 1000ft above the surface, making the modifier for spot checks from the canyon edge above the city at -100 before accounting for their wispy nature. They will very likely give the dragons a wide berth as soon as they see the place is under siege making it far less likely they will be spotted. The Fabler will never even be encountered. Another option is to place the entire Citadel under a dimensional lock so the characters are forced to fight their way in (or float in under wind walk while invisible). Of course, this begs the question why Dragotha and the dragons haven't done the same thing already. Why have them wind walk in pursuit of the characters when they could just wind walk through the citadel? Or further, why Dragotha hasn't had a few servants searching the place under wind walk or ethereally himself rather than trying to batter their way in?
I am going to have to continue thinking about this adventure, but it really isn't runnable as-is. If anyone has any other thoughts, please post them. I will post back and let you know what I came up with, as I am sure there is a way to account for these spells and still have the characters interact with the inhabitants of the Rift. At least, I hope there is.
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Well, I kicked off my KotR last night and all went well after I made a few adjustments. The key issues faced in this module are the use of etherealness and the use of wind walk to bypass much of the module. Here is how I addressed each of these:
Etherealness: The city is the focal point for a permanent Ethereal Cyclone (Manual of Planes pg57) of significant force (add 20% to d100 roll, treating all rolls greater than 100% as 100% on the table on pg 58 of the MoP). The center of the cyclone is in the center of the city, extending outward about 500ft in all directions. Characters will notice the howling winds of the cyclone 1d10 rounds before moving into its effect (assuming they approach from outside the storm's radius), giving them time to consider their actions and prepare.
Ethereal characters can avoid this affect through luck (many low rolls on the cyclone results table), or can move about through the use of telekinetic sphere. This will allow some ethereal exploration while not opening the whole of the city to many characters at once.
Wind Walk: The Order of the Storm cast a number of permanent, epic control wind spells at 23rd level over the whole of the city that prevent significant winds from passing within a 920ft radius of the city center. I figure if they can create a millennial-long storm over Tilagos, they can handle this. The spell is set to force winds to Light (5mph) and with a downdraft. Any wind of any speed entering this area, be it magical or otherwise, is reduced to this new speed and direction. This will force windwalkers down to the floor of the rift canyon regardless of speed of travel.
This spell can be dispelled. Doing so requires a DC34 caster level check using a dispel magic or other spell. Since the control wind spell affects a cylinder 40ft in height, a number of these (lets say 10) have been cast atop each other to create a large cylinder of air moving downward all around the city. Given this arrangement, the DM can handle targeted dispels or use of disjunction the eliminate or supress the effect of these spells. Doing so allows the characters use of Wind Walk within the corresponding area of effect.
By inserting these changes, the characters can still make use of these handy spells, but it takes some work and ingenuity on their part and prevents the bulk of a well-written adventure from getting skipped outright. It also prevents continuity/verisimilitude issues should the characters eventually try these techniques and wonder why their foes were not using these methods rather than a frontal assault on the city all along.
In my game, the characters attempted to windwalk directly into the city but were checked at the edge of the controlled wind area. Puzzled, they set down and materialized to investigate what they might be able to do about the situation and perhaps watch the dragons attacking the city. While they were doing this, I had Necrozyte attack the group, and once again, as expected, they went ethereal. However, it was only the casters using ethereal jaunt rather than etherealness and since they had not yet reached the storms outer edge, they were unaware of the cyclone. I guess the plan was to have the fragile caster types make their way to the city's edge ethereally while the tougher types engaged in a foot/flying race of sorts against the strafing dragon. Everyone began racing for the edge of the cliff and the "safety" of the city, but Necrozyte was able to hunt down and pounce upon a few of the non-casters and force a melee. This brought the casters out of etherealness to help their friends and the module opened as expected with a rousing battle against a tough draconic foe. They won of course (thanks to a well-timed mass heal) and are now outside the city, much wiser and more cautious.
If there are other ideas out there concerning this, please post them here!
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Well, Lich Loved it sounds like you handled the situation brilliantly. I have a group of rather savvy players, who are crafty about spell usage and creative about resources. I have not encountered the issues you have encountered with the use of etherealness or wind walk.
Which brings me to my point, as good as the writers are at Paizo they cannot prepare for every method players might use, even if it is basic core spells. Have I met with some similar circumstances in running AoW? Absolutely! Have the players tried "signature tactics"? Yes, but only for so long before the situation, environment, or bad guys adapt and create new obstacles (as you have so deftly done) to those tactics forcing them to change their approach.
Did Necrozyte survive? I hope so, such a cool dragon! If so then he can pass on information as to the groups tactics, perhaps even taunt the party about the fact that he "knows" their tactics. Suddenly dargons are casting wind gust or other spells that foil those well laid plans.
Never mind all the ninth level uberness, a simple fifth level spell can avoid a big chunk of stuff. "Ooh! A big castle on a column that's only accessible via a bridge? Right, we stone shape the bridge into the chasm so there can't be any giant reinforcements and teleport to the roof of the castle."
So I had to run the Citadel of Weeping Dragons in reverse order...
Never mind all the ninth level uberness, a simple fifth level spell can avoid a big chunk of stuff. "Ooh! A big castle on a column that's only accessible via a bridge? Right, we stone shape the bridge into the chasm so there can't be any giant reinforcements and teleport to the roof of the castle."
So I had to run the Citadel of Weeping Dragons in reverse order...
Stone Shape really does not allow a large area be stoneshaped. It's actually quiet small. The giants could probably jump over it by taking 10.
PS: I have not done the math, but the spell is not as good as I thought it was.
Never mind all the ninth level uberness, a simple fifth level spell can avoid a big chunk of stuff. "Ooh! A big castle on a column that's only accessible via a bridge? Right, we stone shape the bridge into the chasm so there can't be any giant reinforcements and teleport to the roof of the castle."
So I had to run the Citadel of Weeping Dragons in reverse order...Stone Shape really does not allow a large area be stoneshaped. It's actually quiet small. The giants could probably jump over it by taking 10.
PS: I have not done the math, but the spell is not as good as I thought it was.
May be he wanted to say: Transmute rock to mud....
May be he wanted to say: Transmute rock to mud....
And maybe he didn't. :p As a exercise for the reader: What happens to an arch when you stoneshape the keystone away?
And maybe he didn't. :p As a exercise for the reader: What happens to an arch when you stoneshape the keystone away?
May be he wanted to say: Transmute rock to mud....
We did that once in a game I was in (different campaign). Our DM required an appropriate knowledge check (eg. architeture, with appropriate bonuses for stonecunning, etc.) to pick the right spot to shape away. This didn't result in the immediate collapse of the bridge, but more of a mad rush to clear the area as it crumbled behind us.
That encounter also resulted in one of our most epic player deaths.