I'm trying to create a Dread Wraith that looks, at least something like the 3.5 version, however when following the guide I end up with nothing like the 3.5 monster!
Dread Wraith
A wraith that exists for long enough and feeds on enough
life force undergoes an unholy transformation, becoming
a creature known as a dread wraith. This causes the wraith
to increase in size and strength, and to inflict 2d6 points of
negative energy damage and 1d8 Constitution drain with
its incorporeal touch. You can create a dread wraith by
applying the giant and advanced simple templates, or you
can increase the basic wraith to a Large 16 HD undead.
Using the simple Advanced template: +2 rolls/DC's, +4 AC/CMB, +2hp's/HD
and...
Using the simple Giant template: +2 str/con based rolls, +2hp's/HD, -1 dex based rolls.
Seems to create something very different from the 3.5 bad-boy.
Has anyone made a Pathfinder Dread Wraith, if so please share!
Creative Director
|
Using the Giant and Advanced templates are really only a good idea if you find yourself needing a dread wraith in the middle of the game.
If you actually have the time to build up a dread wraith's stat block, you should not use the simple templates. You should just advance it to 16 HD and make it Large, then compare the end results to Table 1–1 to determine it's CR and maybe make some final adjustments to stats as necessary to get it to sit comfortably at a CR score.
Or you could just use the 3.5 stat block. As presented in 3.5, the dread wraith is more like a CR 9 monster, but if you let its HD and hp change to 16d8 plus its Cha mod, that puts its hp at 184, which would fit it much better as a CR 12 or CR 13 monster.
Whatever you do, though, a Pathfinder dread wraith IS going to look different than the 3.5 dread wraith, mostly because in Pathfinder we let undead get those bonus hp.
|
Using the Giant and Advanced templates are really only a good idea if you find yourself needing a dread wraith in the middle of the game.
If you actually have the time to build up a dread wraith's stat block, you should not use the simple templates. You should just advance it to 16 HD and make it Large, then compare the end results to Table 1–1 to determine it's CR and maybe make some final adjustments to stats as necessary to get it to sit comfortably at a CR score.
Or you could just use the 3.5 stat block. As presented in 3.5, the dread wraith is more like a CR 9 monster, but if you let its HD and hp change to 16d8 plus its Cha mod, that puts its hp at 184, which would fit it much better as a CR 12 or CR 13 monster.
Whatever you do, though, a Pathfinder dread wraith IS going to look different than the 3.5 dread wraith, mostly because in Pathfinder we let undead get those bonus hp.
Hey James can you help with something very similar to this?
(OH NO NOT HIM AGAIN! Cosmo can't we delete his account?) :)
I have been working on an undead as well, trying to figure out what I want to use. I have been using a Mummy, advancing it's HD, using Advanced Bestiary's Dread Mummy, and a Mummy advanced with class levels.
Now in GENERAL they come out fairly close, some variation naturally, but my CRs are VERY different! How do I figure out what CR something SHOULD be?
|
Dread Wraith CR 12
LE Large Undead (incorporeal)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., lifesense; Perception +19
Aura unnatural aura (30 ft.)
-----------------------------
DEFENSE
-----------------------------
AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 12 (+7 deflection, +2 Dex)
HP 184 (16d8+112)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +12
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +2, incorporeal; Immune undead traits
-----------------------------
OFFENSE
-----------------------------
Speed fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee incorporeal touch +14 (1d8 negative energy plus 1d8 Con drain DC 25)
Special Attacks create spawn
-----------------------------
STATISTICS
-----------------------------
Str - Dex 14 Con - Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 24
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 25
Feats Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Iron Will, Stealthy
Skills Diplomacy +20, Fly +15, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (planes) +17, Perception +19, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +22
Languages Common, Infernal
Numbers might be off, this a quick and dirty one :)
Where does the CMB 13 come from? [BAB 12 + ??]
|
I was having the same problem with the Ghast (ghoul + advanced template). Once I sat down and compared the 3.5 ghast with the PF ghast, the only real difference is hp (and 1 feat). The PF ghast is really a glass cannon, because it has just over half the hp of the 3.5 version, but it's damage output is higher (better to hit and damage). The save DCs and AC were all the same, so... I guess that's just the way it is?
|
Creative Director
|
I have been working on an undead as well, trying to figure out what I want to use. I have been using a Mummy, advancing it's HD, using Advanced Bestiary's Dread Mummy, and a Mummy advanced with class levels.
Now in GENERAL they come out fairly close, some variation naturally, but my CRs are VERY different! How do I figure out what CR something SHOULD be?
Yup; compare your final monster results to Table 1–1 and assign the CR that feels the most appropriate. For a lot of the Advanced Bestiary's templates, they're actually generally pretty close, but that book is the first to admit that some templates are better on some monsters, so you should NEVER feel locked in to a templated monster's final CR. ESPECIALLY if you're adding class levels.
Dread Wraith CR 12
LE Large Undead (incorporeal)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., lifesense; Perception +19
Aura unnatural aura (30 ft.)
-----------------------------
DEFENSE
-----------------------------
AC 19 , touch 19, flat-footed 12 (+7 deflection, +2 Dex)
HP 184 (16d8+112)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +12
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +2, incorporeal; Immune undead traits
-----------------------------
OFFENSE
-----------------------------
Speed fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee incorporeal touch +14 (1d8 negative energy plus 1d8 Con drain DC 25)
Special Attacks create spawn
-----------------------------
STATISTICS
-----------------------------
Str - Dex 14 Con - Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 24
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 25
Feats Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Iron Will, Stealthy
Skills Diplomacy +20, Fly +15, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (planes) +17, Perception +19, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +22
Languages Common, InfernalNumbers might be off, this a quick and dirty one :)
As you can see from the above inserts in your stat block the monster's abilities are all over the CR chart! obviously the chart doesn't account for incorporeal touch attacks and defence.
Still, it's pretty deadly![Edit] And thank you!
|
Creative Director
|
Dread Wraith CR 12
LE Large Undead (incorporeal)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., lifesense; Perception +19
Aura unnatural aura (30 ft.)
-----------------------------
DEFENSE
-----------------------------
AC 19 , touch 19, flat-footed 12 (+7 deflection, +2 Dex)
HP 184 (16d8+112)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +12
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +2, incorporeal; Immune undead traits
-----------------------------
OFFENSE
-----------------------------
Speed fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee incorporeal touch +14 (1d8 negative energy plus 1d8 Con drain DC 25)
Special Attacks create spawn
-----------------------------
STATISTICS
-----------------------------
Str - Dex 14 Con - Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 24
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 25
Feats Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Iron Will, Stealthy
Skills Diplomacy +20, Fly +15, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (planes) +17, Perception +19, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +22
Languages Common, InfernalNumbers might be off, this a quick and dirty one :)
As you can see from the above inserts in your stat block the monster's abilities are all over the CR chart! obviously the chart doesn't account for incorporeal touch attacks and defence.
Still, it's pretty deadly!
Which is why it's okay to adjust things. Fiddling with ability scores is a great way to change things up.
And remember that making an incorporeal creature larger is usually a good way to make it less powerful, since it only really suffers the penalty from larger size and none of the bonuses.
Not sure where you're getting "CR 18" for its touch attack though. You can't really treat Con drain as actual damage, especially in a case like a wraith where that Con drain can be resisted by a saving throw.
But yeah... it's a tough monster to CR properly due to the fact that it's incorporeal.
Not sure where you're getting "CR 18" for its touch attack though. You can't really treat Con drain as actual damage, especially in a case like a wraith where that Con drain can be resisted by a saving throw.
The CR18 was from the "Primary Ability DC" entry on table 1-1, I was only referring to the saving throw DC part rather than the whole attack. It was more of a rough guess really. I was trying to marry up as much from the table as possible to find the right CR.
Wish you'd included the Dread Wraith, it's one of my favourite critters to through at my players, it's an initiative frenzy, "can I get up a Death Ward before I die...?"
I have a bit of a thing about Wraiths and Mummys, love 'em!
|
|
Yup; compare your final monster results to Table 1–1 and assign the CR that feels the most appropriate. For a lot of the Advanced Bestiary's templates, they're actually generally pretty close, but that book is the first to admit that some templates are better on some monsters, so you should NEVER feel locked in to a templated monster's final CR. ESPECIALLY if you're adding class levels.I have been working on an undead as well, trying to figure out what I want to use. I have been using a Mummy, advancing it's HD, using Advanced Bestiary's Dread Mummy, and a Mummy advanced with class levels.
Now in GENERAL they come out fairly close, some variation naturally, but my CRs are VERY different! How do I figure out what CR something SHOULD be?
Thanks!
Now the hard part is deciding which option is the coolest one to use! lol
|
|
Not sure where you're getting "CR 18" for its touch attack though. You can't really treat Con drain as actual damage, especially in a case like a wraith where that Con drain can be resisted by a saving throw.
The CR18 was from the "Primary Ability DC" entry on table 1-1, I was only referring to the saving throw DC part rather than the whole attack. It was more of a rough guess really. I was trying to marry up as much from the table as possible to find the right CR.
Wish you'd included the Dread Wraith, it's one of my favourite critters to through at my players, it's an initiative frenzy, "can I get up a Death Ward before I die...?"
I have a bit of a thing about Wraiths and Mummys, love 'em!
yeah me too! Not enough stuff out there with them. :) I think these scare me more than any other monster... not sure why. But they are the best to throw at me to get under my skin. *shudder*
the stats for the dread wraith will prove very useful, considering a certain deck in the classic items revisited book.
|
Creative Director
|
[Wish you'd included the Dread Wraith, it's one of my favourite critters to through at my players, it's an initiative frenzy, "can I get up a Death Ward before I die...?"
I wish so too. Originally, the plan was to include a dread wraith in the same way we included the greater shadow, as an actual second stat block (since it's weird advancing incorporeal creatures and all), but the combination of the wraith's stat block being more complicated than a shadow's and the wraith's picture being a lot wider than the shadow's made doing a second stat block impossible.
That Picture was stolen from RotRL! It's a great picture.
[throw at the players, throw! ...don't know where I got "through" from, lol.]