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I am playing a caster that can cast 6th level spells for the first time, and we knew we would face some powerful undead. I saw the 6th level spell "Undeath to Death" and thought "Yes! This will be cool!"
Then I read the spell description.
You can't cast this spell until you're at least 11th level, and it has no effect whatsoever on anything with 9 or more HD? And it costs 500 gp per casting? And they get a fortitude save?
Really?
I...can't think of any reason I would memorize this. I can almost see the worth of having one scroll in that rare case where you'll happen to be facing a lot of low level undead. But I've never seen such a fight at levels where one would have access to the scroll.
Ugh.
Yeah the material component makes it hardly worth it.
Unless I had plenty of cash, and I knew I was going to be clearing out a haunted castle or something, I would never prepare it.
It is really good though at wiping out lots of undead at once. Most undead will be affected by the spell, except for undead with class levels such as vampires, liches, ghosts, and your super strong undead such as Dread Wraiths or large zombies. And most undead have dismal Fort saves.
But yeah, its very very situation specific.
I've called undeath to death the "necromantic fireball". It's only for slaughtering undead that aren't that great of a threat overall to the party by the time you get it. I think you could accomplish much the same thing with something like an empowered fireball; still hits their bad saves and you still get something out of it if they make the save (unless dealing with rogues, monks, or rangers that are undead). Yes, it's more annoying when dealing with groups of incorporeal undead than just slaughtering them with undeath to death, but similar effectiveness overall, one spell slot lower, no pesky expensive material component.
Situational for sure, but how many times have you gone up against an evil necromancer, mage or cleric, that has a horde of skeletons and zombies? You can use this to easily cut a group of mooks with a BBEG or two into a simpler fight for your party.
It is worth having when you know what you may be facing... but other then that it is a great spell to be on a scroll or two.
Situational for sure, but how many times have you gone up against an evil necromancer, mage or cleric, that has a horde of skeletons and zombies? You can use this to easily cut a group of mooks with a BBEG or two into a simpler fight for your party.
It is worth having when you know what you may be facing... but other then that it is a great spell to be on a scroll or two.
Yet at the level you have access to it a Channel Positive Energy would work just as well with out the 500ggp price tag on it. Or am I missing something else?
You'd probably be better off with an empowered fireball if you are trying to kill 11d4 undead that are CR appropriate for a level 11 party.
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Yet at the level you have access to it a Channel Positive Energy would work just as well with out the 500ggp price tag on it. Or am I missing something else?
Channel positive will do 6d6 positive energy (will save half) in a 30' radius. Undead to Death has a 40' radius, doesn't have to be centered on the caster, and kills outright if successful. It won't affect anything near an actual challenge to the caster at that point, the fortitude save negates the spell entirety for a target, and it costs 500 gp / casting.
For the very specific case where you are fighting a very large group of closely grouped together low HD undead...it might be worth it. I've....never seen that situation.
Arcane casters cannot channel energy, so it is not really a comparison. That is kind of like saying why would you cast shocking grasp when a great sword does way more damage. And as far as fireball goes... yes that is an option if you want to set everything in the area on fire. The ability to target undead only makes this one of the few AOE attacks a wizard has that cannot harm the farmer's daughter tied up for sacrifice near the necromancer. /grin
I am not saying this spell is better then many other spells. It is not. But it does have the ability to do somethings no other spell can do in some instances. And the smart wizard prepares for those times he can turn a challenge for the party into something magically better.
I think the main reason that this spell has a material component that costs money is for the same reason animate dead has one as well. Game balance and flavor.
(On a side note, in our game, we have a house rule that Eschew Materials removes 25 GP per caster level of spell component cost... so a level 20 wizard with the feat can ignore up to 500GP. Focus costs still apply in full. This would cut some of the cost of this spell... but again it is a house rule.)
Yet at the level you have access to it a Channel Positive Energy would work just as well with out the 500ggp price tag on it. Or am I missing something else?Channel positive will do 6d6 positive energy (will save half) in a 30' radius. Undead to Death has a 40' radius, doesn't have to be centered on the caster, and kills outright if successful. It won't affect anything near an actual challenge to the caster at that point, the fortitude save negates the spell entirety for a target, and it costs 500 gp / casting.
For the very specific case where you are fighting a very large group of closely grouped together low HD undead...it might be worth it. I've....never seen that situation.
Right, but in the case of skeletons and zombies mentioned above Channel would be the more effective option, I think. Certainly more cost effective. Now if it a mob of wights and such U2D might be worth it, but how often do you see large groups of mid level undead?
Arcane casters cannot channel energy, so it is not really a comparison. That is kind of like saying why would you cast shocking grasp when a great sword does way more damage. And as far as fireball goes... yes that is an option if you want to set everything in the area on fire. The ability to target undead only makes this one of the few AOE attacks a wizard has that cannot harm the farmer's daughter tied up for sacrifice near the necromancer. /grin
I am not saying this spell is better then many other spells. It is not. But it does have the ability to do somethings no other spell can do in some instances. And the smart wizard prepares for those times he can turn a challenge for the party into something magically better.
I think the main reason that this spell has a material component that costs money is for the same reason animate dead has one as well. Game balance and flavor.
(On a side note, in our game, we have a house rule that Eschew Materials removes 25 GP per caster level of spell component cost... so a level 20 wizard with the feat can ignore up to 500GP. Focus costs still apply in full. This would cut some of the cost of this spell... but again it is a house rule.)
You have a point about potential collateral damage. Then compare this to chain lightning, where I get to pick my targets. Not as much damage at 11th level as the empowered fireball, area of effect isn't the same, but still a viable comparison.
As for the component: 500gp for a spell that is useful in a particular near corner-case? At least when I use spells like commune I can get some answers to my problems. I wonder if the component was just held over from 3.5.
I like your house-rule though. Makes that feat extra useful.
It is my understanding that in regards to Arcane/Divine spells that have Material components the Material component part of the spell only applies to the Arcane caster. The Core Rulebook has this to say on page 213:
"If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash)and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash)."
If the above is true, then the 500 gp component only applies to the Sorcerer/Wizard version of spell. The Cleric version of the spell only requires a divine focus. That does not mean I don't agree with the other matters that were brought up, just that the component issue should be cleared up.
Undeath to death does cover a lot more area than a fireball.
The best use for undeath to death is against incorporeal undead. Theres no half-damage issues to deal with. Against things like spectres, allips, shadows, and wraiths, it is extremely effective. Fireball not only affects a much smaller area, it also only deals half damage to them, or a quarter on a succesful save. And it potentially damages allies or innocent bystanders or unattended magical loot.
Chain Lightning is clearly better than fireball, but even that drop a mess of spectres. Average damage on a cl20 chain lightning is 70, halved for incorporeal is 35. Thats on a failed save. On a successful save average damage drops to 17.5.
And as most incorporeal undead are so dangerous that you don't even want to risk getting touched once by them, having a way to erase a lot of them is a pretty handy option.
I wouldn't waste Undeath to Death on zombies or skeletons. Just freaking hack them apart. Thats why you bring that big dumb fighter along with you anyways, and he has to have something to do to feel useful. Save the spell for the incorporeal undead that can drain a party down pretty quick. Admittedly it could be a good spell to break out on a bunch of ghasts when Mr. Fighter rolls a 1 on his fort save and gets paralyzed.
But generally its best used against incorporeal undead, which except for dread wraiths, greater shadows, and really strong ghosts it will work against.