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This came up in another thread, and rather than derail that one any further, I thought it would be interesting to see where the community stands.
The question is simple: How does one "Win" at DnD, PFRPG, or any other tabletop RPG game?
In my opinion, this is like asking "Where can I buy oranges?" when playing Monopoly, or "When do I level up?" when playing Texas Hold'em.
The idea that there is a set "win condition" in the game, other than "having fun playing" is alien to my concept of the game. Some of the most fun times we've had were completely non-combat, non-encounter type of sessions. We talked in character, cracked jokes, and made up funny voices (and horrible accents) that night. If dice were rolled, it was a very minor part of the evening.
We have also had plenty of combat-heavy, dice-rolling-crazy dungeon crawl type sessions. One is not "better" than the other, merely different ways to spend a few hours amongst friends.
For me, the definition of the genre lies in the Roleplaying aspect, rather than the Game aspect. You take on the character of someone you are not, who is usually capable of amazing and unusual abilities, or possessing some extraordinary set of skills/equipment/etc.
Through your imagination and creativity, you interact with other people who are pretending to be others, and tell a collaborative story with them. The best ones involve the whole table, everyone buying into the illusion and helping one another to achieve their personal goals/desires.
So, no matter if you do 100hp of damage per swing, or have the exact right combination of feats/powers/skills/spells to waltz through each and every combat encounter the DM generates, or stand back and swing your whip while inspiring courage, if you are having fun, you win at DnD.
There exists, somehow, this idea that Higher Level/Higher Power > Lower Level/Lower Power, and that equation follows for amount of fun. That is to say, if you are not playing the most powerful character at the table (or theoretically possible), you are not capable of having fun. That idea is alien to me.
So, what say you, Paizonans? Is there a way to "Win" at DnD? Can you quantify the amount of fun to be had in any particular class/combo? Is someone wrong for playing a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Bard?
Inquiring minds want to know!
-t
Short answer: No, it isn't possible to win at D&D. That doesn't stop people from trying though.
Long answer: ...
Well, I don't feel like giving a long answer right now. Mainly because I'm certain this discussion might end up with people trying to win an argument on the internet, an equally impossible task.
"Winning isn't everything..."
I believe you "win" when the party completes the main task/quest/story arc successfully. That being said, you could also "win" by accomplishing your character's personal goals, such as revenge, owning land, etc.
That being said, the game isn't necessarily over when you "win", depending on the DM, you might very well continue onto a new goal, the same way a comic book superhero might move onto a new villain to face. Captain America's comics didn't end the first time he defeated Red Skull...
You 'win' at D&D by having fun...
The players attempting to beat the DM leads to broken builds...The DM that feels he has to win at DMing tends to go through a lot of players, because there are only so many TPKs people can handle...
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The Win Scenario for D&D/Pathfinder is to reach the resolution of the story.
For your character, it may be saving the kingdom, saving the world, retiring and buying that tavern you've always wanted to run, marrying your longtime adventuring companion and raising another generation of heroes, or any combination thereof.
For the GM/DM, it's a matter of seeing all the hours of preparation, all the dice rolls, and unexpected actions of the players resolve into a (hopefully) memorable tale that your group will talk about for years to come.
Like others said, the word Win has such a finality to it and I prefer to use Success. If you complete a module or story arc in a positive way, it was a success. If you fulfill one of your character's goals, it was a success. Also like others have said, as long as everyone, and I mean everyone, had fun, then it was a success AND everyone wins. If you had fun but others did not then you all lose, no matter how much enjoyment you got from ruining the game for others.
I guess you could say you Win when you reach the level limit for characters, 20 in non-epic rules and 12 for Pathfinder Society play, and there is no more advancement and it is time to retire the character and start a new one.
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I'd say the win is when you can come away with enough enjoyment of the game that you can write a chapter detailing the Adventures of Bob the Wizard's drunken bar brawl, Silya the Cleric's hostage crisis in the Temple, and Finn the Sworder's Abduction and torture by three Halfling Cultists who think he is the father of the Half - Ling messiah (who the hell knows what a Ling is)...all while the party was in town between the Rescue of Princess Melanie, and battleing the Army of the Fire Stoker and actually have fond memories of having playtested the action going in the story.
The question is simple: How does one "Win" at DnD, PFRPG, or any other tabletop RPG game?
Talking about "I win D&D" is a jocular way of saying that your character is ridiculously powerful. It doesn't actually mean that you are winning the game somehow. In fact, the lack of a victory condition in D&D is where the saying derives its humour.
On a similar note, saying "this party is off the hook" does not mean that the party was literally on a hook and has now been removed.
Also, "it's raining cats and dogs" does not refer to actual feline and canine precipitation.
:-)
You win by crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you... and hearing the lamentation of their women!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you're a DM, you win if you get a tpk without cheating (e.g., throwing an ancient red dragon against a 1st level party - unless the party sought out the dragon).
If you're a player, you win when you ruin the DM's story or otherwise disrupt his game world in a significant way.
Sheesh, I thought everyone knew this.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In my opinion, this is like asking "Where can I buy oranges?" when playing Monopoly,
The jail, but you need to get cigarettes by winning the Beauty Pagent and sleeping with the judge.
or "When do I level up?" when playing Texas Hold'em.
Each dollar of winnings = 1 xp. Once you get $1,000,000, you level up.
RTFR!!!
Sheesh.
I wrote the other day (in the thread that might be what psionichamster was referring to) that a "good" player is one who makes the game fun for the other players, or helps to do so.
But winning? You win by having fun... but I don't ever recall experiencing a TPK that I felt was fun.
There were a couple of times when I ran a campaign in which MOST of the party was killed, and the surviving PCs recruited replacements and continued the campaign with a quest motivated by that mostly-party-killer. THOSE were fun.
But a TPK? That's not fun at all, neither for the players nor for the GM. So that's one of the ways you can "lose."
No doubt, a lot of "Tomb of Horrors" fans, and the like, will argue with me about that. To each his own.
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In my opinion, this is like asking "Where can I buy oranges?" when playing Monopoly,The jail, but you need to get cigarettes by winning the Beauty Pagent and sleeping with the judge.
or "When do I level up?" when playing Texas Hold'em.
Each dollar of winnings = 1 xp. Once you get $1,000,000, you level up.
RTFR!!!
Sheesh.
ah, Sebastian.
you make me laugh, even when you mock me.
-t
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In my opinion, this is like asking "Where can I buy oranges?" when playing Monopoly,The jail, but you need to get cigarettes by winning the Beauty Pagent and sleeping with the judge.
or "When do I level up?" when playing Texas Hold'em.
Each dollar of winnings = 1 xp. Once you get $1,000,000, you level up.
RTFR!!!
Sheesh.
ah, Sebastian.
you make me laugh, even when you mock me.
-t
I'm always happy to amuse, but that was meant in good humor, not mocking.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
I'm pretty sure "game" is a euphemism here.
I don't understand the question.
I do because I have players in my game that try. It seems that by finding some magical combination of attacks and defenses within the game rules, they feel there's a Holy Grail of game stats by which they will make a character that is unkillable and capable of passing the Massive Damage threshold on every hit. Thus, they win at D&D. It's disappointing, but as a DM I want players to play the kind of character they want to play. If that's a stat monkey, that's fine. But if you try to negotiate with the NPCs with your 6 Charisma (as in my current game), the best you can hope for is for them not to notice that you're there.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
My wife does that too. Now it's a running joke we ask about any activity that doesn't usually involve winning.
... they will make a character that is unkillable and capable of passing the Massive Damage threshold on every hit.
This is one reason I don't use the Massive Damage threshold.
I can't add anything else, other than an agreement with Hogarth as to the origin of the phrase in question and its meaning.
It also encourages a mindset that I don't mind for thought games, such as Optimization Challenges, but don't want at my table. Leave the Pun Puns and super-mages on the forums and bring a character.
... they will make a character that is unkillable and capable of passing the Massive Damage threshold on every hit.This is one reason I don't use the Massive Damage threshold.
Yeah, neither do I, but the phrase was useful to my purposes.
Yeah, neither do I, but the phrase was useful to my purposes.... they will make a character that is unkillable and capable of passing the Massive Damage threshold on every hit.This is one reason I don't use the Massive Damage threshold.
Touche.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
You know, every once in a while I ask my wife if she "won," but that's more about nervously referring to delicate question by using a euphemism so as to cushion the blow . . . you know . . . if she didn't win.
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You know, every once in a while I ask my wife if she "won," but that's more about nervously referring to delicate question by using a euphemism so as to cushion the blow . . . you know . . . if she didn't win.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
Make sure she's outfitted with CR appropriate gear and she should be able to solo that.
If ya know what I mean.
You win by retiring your character @ level 20(+) when he's filled with Gold, Magic Items, Castles, and a Land that he rules per his alignment. When his children are born though, you lose again..and have to make one of his children a vessel for your win.
Character Lineage FTW.
In my opinion, this is like asking "Where can I buy oranges?" when playing Monopoly,The jail, but you need to get cigarettes by winning the Beauty Pagent and sleeping with the judge.
or "When do I level up?" when playing Texas Hold'em.
Each dollar of winnings = 1 xp. Once you get $1,000,000, you level up.
RTFR!!!
Sheesh.
ah, Sebastian.
you make me laugh, even when you mock me.
-t
I'm always happy to amuse, but that was meant in good humor, not mocking.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.
Is your wife,.....
is she.....a....GOER?
knowhatimean? knowhatimean? nudgenudge? say no more! SAY NO MORE!!!
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Given some other threads on this forum I was under the assumption you "win" when you work out a character that can do 1.42 Grizzillion points of damage per round while wielding 3.14159 shields and wearing spiked chain shoe laces. You doubly win if you achieve the above while in the form of an otter and/or wearing a miniskirt.
I could be wrong, I'm not very smart,
S.
You win by retiring your character @ level 20(+) when he's filled with Gold, Magic Items, Castles, and a Land that he rules per his alignment. When his children are born though, you lose again..and have to make one of his children a vessel for your win.
Character Lineage FTW.
Wins the Thread.
You know, every once in a while I ask my wife if she "won," but that's more about nervously referring to delicate question by using a euphemism so as to cushion the blow . . . you know . . . if she didn't win.
My wife asks me after every game if I won. I always tell her yes.Make sure she's outfitted with CR appropriate gear and she should be able to solo that.
If ya know what I mean.
But you know what happen with solo adventurers: they tend to take the Leadership feat as soon as they can. You gotta stay ahead of that cohort...
If everyone is having fun, then you're winning.
-Skeld
This.
Also, about multiclassing and badwrongfun. I have played a lot of characters, and in the last few years many of them have been multiclassed. I do this mostly because I have made my fair share of rangers, paladins, wizards, clerics, ninjas, etc. I tend to multiclass now just to play something that is different. Its also nice to crunch numbers and try to make it work as well as a single class character.
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If everyone is having fun, then you're winning.
-Skeld
This.
Also, about multiclassing and badwrongfun. I have played a lot of characters, and in the last few years many of them have been multiclassed. I do this mostly because I have made my fair share of rangers, paladins, wizards, clerics, ninjas, etc. I tend to multiclass now just to play something that is different. Its also nice to crunch numbers and try to make it work as well as a single class character.
I Metaclassed for years: CRUSADER (FIGHTER/CLERIC), GUILDMAGE (THIEF/WIZARD), SCOUT (FIGHTER/THIEF), SPELLJAMMER CORSAIR (FIGHTER/WIZARD), STEAMWARDEN (DRUID/FIGHTER).
Creativity is the watchword here.
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Win Condition #1 - Have Fun with your Group while playing the game, regardless of the in-game outcome of the Session.
Win Condition #2 - Come away from the session with Exciting and memorable tales to share with other Gamers in the future, regardless of the intended goals of the Characters or in-game results of their actions.
In other words, even mission-failure and TPKs can be a Win if you still had fun and it was memorable.
IMHO,
Rez
This is exactly my opinion as well. Have fun=win