Was wondering if anyone can answer this question:
Can a Bard maintain a performance (say with an instrument) and melee in the same round? From what I understand the Bard starts the performance with a standard action but can maintain it with a free action. It makes no sense to me that a bard could maintain a performance on an instrument and fight at the same time but that is what the rules seem to indicate.
Thanks for any clarification.
Why use an instrument? Just use your pretty, pretty voice to buff up your allies. Another option, if they can see you it to dance for your bardic performance...you can dance and fight at the same time.
Thats what I was thinking but dosen't that kind of GIMP player who want to use an instrument. It almost forces players to use ceratin types of performance.
In some situations, an instrument is actually better. With a masterwork instrument, you get a +2 bonus, which is actually great when a countersong or fascinate is needed. Also, being able to play instruments allows you to use magical instruments!
Thats what I was thinking but dosen't that kind of GIMP player who want to use an instrument. It almost forces players to use ceratin types of performance.
Well if you are holding a guitar/or playing something that requires two hands (i.e. a sax or something) then no you couldn't fight because both your hands are occupado, you need to take that into account when you create your character.
If you really want to make a character that uses a guitar (or something) and fights then make him buy a masterwork battle ax with the guitar (or whatever would make sense for the instrument they want to use, perhaps a dagger that is also a flute???) built into it (the instrument would count as masterwork too) and explain in his background that he uses the discord of striking people between chords as inspiration for his music or something, you could even make it as part of a quest that his character has to find a famous bard that has already learned how to do that to teach him how to do it
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful answers and food-for-thought.
I also had a friend who had a very interesting idea. In his fantasy settings, a bard's music definitely is and sounds magical. When a bard starts playing music to inspire courage (with a standard action), he takes out his instrument, plays a few notes and the music keeps playing and is heard by his allies, like a real-life background music. He needs to concentrate with a free action to keep the music playing, but he can still fight while doing so, since the music keeps playing by itself. If you're not afraid to turn your bards into living jukeboxes to promote the use of instruments, go ahead. I like the idea of a bard's music being magic enough to play in the heads of those who hear it.
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If one of my players had a bard with Improved Unarmed Strike I would totally let them play the sax while face-kicking the bad guys. I would also allow a foot weapon (exotic prof) to accomplish the same. Rule of cool, I guess.
I usually rule you have to continue performing using whatever method you have been and that instruments still take a slot, singing disrupts verbal components to spells, etc (though I'd allow switching performance skills as a free action as long as the new perform was compatible with the bardic music type).
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Yeah, the issue isn't with maintaining the performance. It's with what you're doing to keep playing the instrument.
Hmm... Quick Draw, and weapons/instrument of returning might do the job.
"I pull out my guitar and begin the performance."
Next Round
"I continue my performance as a free action and drop my guitar. I draw my weapons and attack. Then I drop my weapons."
Next Round
"My guitar and weapons return to me. I grab my guitar and use a free action to continue my performance. I drop my guitar. Since that took no time, I grab my weapons and attack. I drop my weapons."
Kinda cheesy though :p
Make it worse. You know those guys who use saws to play music? Do you see where I'm going with this? :p
Or, alternatively, get your guitar and start enchanting it as a weapon. It might only deal 1d3 base, but the flaming frost shock sonic acid damage makes that not matter so much :p
Catch off Guard and Improvised weapon mastery are your friends.
I suspect most bardic players choose ranks in oratory, song, or comedy (perform comedy yeah) for exactly this reason. IMO dance and Act are likely possible during combat as well... I'm not sure how you would act that would inspire others but it's an option.
Well, certain soliloqies from Shakespeare, particularly the St. Crispin's Day speech from Henry V come to mind. I know, it blurs thje line between acting and oratory, but in my mind, the difference is that oratory is your ability to speak words you yourself think of on the fly, while acting is repeating the words of others in a convincing manner.
I was thinking if I could talk a GM into it I would play a twf bard who dual wielded light maces and used them to play a kettle drum.
Or make them hollow and they could be maracas. ;-)
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I was thinking if I could talk a GM into it I would play a twf bard who dual wielded light maces and used them to play a kettle drum.Or make them hollow and they could be maracas. ;-)
I figure the kettle drums are a much easier sell than my plan B which was to attach a bayonet to an accordion.
I do like the improved unarmed strike idea a lot also.
Hmmm, it doesn't look like anyone has mentioned it, so I will.
Consider using all those skill points to get good at more than one style of performance. That way, when you want to fight, you can orate during melee, but when you want to hang back and buff the group, you can whip out your masterwork mandolyn or your horn of blasting or your drums of panic or whatever and lay some serious bardic doom on your enemies.
And then you can dance a jig on your fallen foe's corpses...
It's the best of all worlds.
Hmmm, it doesn't look like anyone has mentioned it, so I will.
Consider using all those skill points to get good at more than one style of performance. That way, when you want to fight, you can orate during melee, but when you want to hang back and buff the group, you can whip out your masterwork mandolyn or your horn of blasting or your drums of panic or whatever and lay some serious bardic doom on your enemies.
And then you can dance a jig on your fallen foe's corpses...
It's the best of all worlds.
This.
Pluse, versatile performance means that spreading the love across at least two performance skills REALLY is in your best interest.
I was thinking if I could talk a GM into it I would play a twf bard who dual wielded light maces and used them to play a kettle drum.Or make them hollow and they could be maracas. ;-)I figure the kettle drums are a much easier sell than my plan B which was to attach a bayonet to an accordion.
I do like the improved unarmed strike idea a lot also.
Some would argue that the sound of an accordion alone should cause some sort of damage to EVERYONE who hears it.
Some would argue that the sound of an accordion alone should cause some sort of damage to EVERYONE who hears it.
Could be worse...could be bagpipes
Some would argue that the sound of an accordion alone should cause some sort of damage to EVERYONE who hears it.Could be worse...could be bagpipes
Being descended from the Campbells, I'll take that as a compliment.
Ask for 3.5 material, be a caster bard :D
Being descended from the Campbells, I'll take that as a compliment.
oooh awkward.
Creative Director
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Was wondering if anyone can answer this question:
Can a Bard maintain a performance (say with an instrument) and melee in the same round? From what I understand the Bard starts the performance with a standard action but can maintain it with a free action. It makes no sense to me that a bard could maintain a performance on an instrument and fight at the same time but that is what the rules seem to indicate.Thanks for any clarification.
The general rule is yes: A bard can maintain ANY kind of performance, once he begins the performance as a standard action (later as a move or swift as he gains levels) as a free action. This includes violins and flutes and tubas and harpsichords.
A GM might rule that certain enormous instruments like alp horns or pianos might require a bard to remain stationary near the instrument, but maintaining the bardic performance is always a free action.
Being descended from the Campbells, I'll take that as a compliment.oooh awkward.
My middle name.
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Was wondering if anyone can answer this question:
Can a Bard maintain a performance (say with an instrument) and melee in the same round? From what I understand the Bard starts the performance with a standard action but can maintain it with a free action. It makes no sense to me that a bard could maintain a performance on an instrument and fight at the same time but that is what the rules seem to indicate.Thanks for any clarification.
The general rule is yes: A bard can maintain ANY kind of performance, once he begins the performance as a standard action (later as a move or swift as he gains levels) as a free action. This includes violins and flutes and tubas and harpsichords.
A GM might rule that certain enormous instruments like alp horns or pianos might require a bard to remain stationary near the instrument, but maintaining the bardic performance is always a free action.
This is awesome, I'm going to add an evil bard playing pipe organs into my next session. Hmm, where can I put a pipe organ :(
This is awesome, I'm going to add an evil bard playing pipe organs into my next session. Hmm, where can I put a pipe organ :(
And he will play this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aej0vQJNQA
The general rule is yes: A bard can maintain ANY kind of performance, once he begins the performance as a standard action (later as a move or swift as he gains levels) as a free action. This includes violins and flutes and tubas and harpsichords.
A GM might rule that certain enormous instruments like alp horns or pianos might require a bard to remain stationary near the instrument, but maintaining the bardic performance is always a free action.
I'm having a hard time accepting this as written.
Most instruments take two hands to play. That doesn't leave much room for sword swinging, or even for holding a sword while the instrument is played. Even if it is a one-handed musical instrument, that still leaves bards with TWF, 2H weapons, bows/crossbows as having to pull off the impossible.
I really can't see a bard managing to play his mandolyn as a free action while holding a sword in his hand, switching back and forth between his attacks and his music-making.
Maybe you meant to say "A bard can use any Performance skill to maintain an existing performance, even if that performance was begun with a different Performance skill" ?
That way, a bard could begin with his mandolyn, fire up a bardic music effect, then let go of the mandolyn and draw his sword and begin fighting, and every round he could use song or oratory or maybe even dance to maintain the original bardic music effect.
Hopefully you meant it this way?
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I suspect most bardic players choose ranks in oratory, song, or comedy (perform comedy yeah) for exactly this reason. IMO dance and Act are likely possible during combat as well... I'm not sure how you would act that would inspire others but it's an option.
Perhaps a flourish with the rapier, and a sudden burst of "HELLO!! My name is Inego Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die!" followed by a prance and a side step.
Voila! He has acted as a swift action!
The general rule is yes: A bard can maintain ANY kind of performance, once he begins the performance as a standard action (later as a move or swift as he gains levels) as a free action. This includes violins and flutes and tubas and harpsichords.
A GM might rule that certain enormous instruments like alp horns or pianos might require a bard to remain stationary near the instrument, but maintaining the bardic performance is always a free action.
I'm having a hard time accepting this as written.
Most instruments take two hands to play. That doesn't leave much room for sword swinging, or even for holding a sword while the instrument is played. Even if it is a one-handed musical instrument, that still leaves bards with TWF, 2H weapons, bows/crossbows as having to pull off the impossible.
I really can't see a bard managing to play his mandolyn as a free action while holding a sword in his hand, switching back and forth between his attacks and his music-making.
Maybe you meant to say "A bard can use any Performance skill to maintain an existing performance, even if that performance was begun with a different Performance skill" ?
That way, a bard could begin with his mandolyn, fire up a bardic music effect, then let go of the mandolyn and draw his sword and begin fighting, and every round he could use song or oratory or maybe even dance to maintain the original bardic music effect.
Hopefully you meant it this way?
Actually, I think he's bringing up that you don't need to just stand there and continuously play the stupid mandolin (WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THAT INSTRUMENT IT'S SO LAME ARRRRRRGH). He plays it once to start the song, then keeps the magic in the song moving as he draws his weapon to attack. Remember, it's not the performance that gives the effect, it's the little bit of magic the bard pushes into the performance that does it.
Actually, I think he's bringing up that you don't need to just stand there and continuously play the stupid mandolin (WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THAT INSTRUMENT IT'S SO LAME ARRRRRRGH). He plays it once to start the song, then keeps the magic in the song moving as he draws his weapon to attack. Remember, it's not the performance that gives the effect, it's the little bit of magic the bard pushes into the performance that does it.
I dunno, sounds iffy to me.
If he needs a lyre (better?) to begin a musical performance on round one, you're saying he can put that lyre down and just maintain the performance with a wave of his hand? Except it requires an audible component the whole time, round after round, so instead of waving his hand he has to speak a few magic words or something? Maybe an a capella song round after round?
Wouldn't that be a singing performance then?
I just think that they called it "performance" for a reason. Because it requires performing. Not just to start the effect, but to maintain it. If they intended otherwise, then they should have said something like this:
"The bard chooses one type of performance and uses the appropriate skill to begin the effect. On each subsequent round, there is no performance required; instead, as a free action, the bard just magically wills the effect to continue while he does other things that require his attention."
I could buy that, but they didn't say that.
In fact, I might just houserule that, but they didn't say that.
If it's your contention that this is what James Jacobs meant in his post, then it's my contention that he should have said that.
Actually, I think he's bringing up that you don't need to just stand there and continuously play the stupid mandolin (WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THAT INSTRUMENT IT'S SO LAME ARRRRRRGH). He plays it once to start the song, then keeps the magic in the song moving as he draws his weapon to attack. Remember, it's not the performance that gives the effect, it's the little bit of magic the bard pushes into the performance that does it.I dunno, sounds iffy to me.
If he needs a lyre (better?) to begin a musical performance on round one, you're saying he can put that lyre down and just maintain the performance with a wave of his hand? Except it requires an audible component the whole time, round after round, so instead of waving his hand he has to speak a few magic words or something? Maybe an a capella song round after round?
Wouldn't that be a singing performance then?
I just think that they called it "performance" for a reason. Because it requires performing. Not just to start the effect, but to maintain it. If they intended otherwise, then they should have said something like this:
"The bard chooses one type of performance and uses the appropriate skill to begin the effect. On each subsequent round, there is no performance required; instead, as a free action, the bard just magically wills the effect to continue while he does other things that require his attention."
I could buy that, but they didn't say that.
In fact, I might just houserule that, but they didn't say that.
If it's your contention that this is what James Jacobs meant in his post, then it's my contention that he should have said that.
Lyre is totally not better :I. The only worthwhile string instruments are FIDDLES :D
Also, I was just guessing at what he meant. I typically either play bards who don't melee and focus on casting (Though that requires 3.5 support) or I stay away from instruments.
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Perform can be attempted untrained. Bardic performance does not stipulate that you have to use a perform skill that you have ranks in. A lot of times you will need to use a ranked one because the result of your perform check will determine the effect (countersong, distraction, etc). Inspire Courage is not one of those situations. You could still pull if off even if you had 0 ranks in perform. The ability to use it is just determined by your bard level.
So just use oratory or sing when inspiring courage thereby keeping your hands free for other things. Break out your instrument for special effects.
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Creative Director
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Okay; I've been thinking this over and rephrased myself better on a similar thread... but basically, here's the trick.
Bardic performance does NOT require you to use a Perform skill that you have ranks in. It doesn't even need a Perform skill at all. Not only is Perform usable untrained, but the bardic performance ability does not require you to make Perform checks of any kind except for a few specific TYPES of bardic performance, such as countersong or distraction.
This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.
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As a long time Bard player, allow me to input the following.
I've often thought it was weird that the Bardic Performance to inspire courage required no roll, so you *could* have a Bard that had 0 ranks in perform.
However, in 3.5, 3.0, and earlier, the Bardic performance was X number of times per day, lasting so many rounds. In 3.0, you could start a Bardic performance, and it would continue to affect the party for a number of rounds after you stopped!
I think this is the same principle. You can start by playing the Lute, Flute, Banjo, Jug, etc...it's the lingering supernatural effect you are keeping alive every turn with that free action.