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Hi
This thread is for players of this campaign so please, other people do not post here.
For the players of this campaign, thank you for trying this out. This thread will be used for out of character discussions. Also this thread will have links to the other thread(s) as well as information on house rules.
I would like each of you just to make a quick post here so we can see what the other players look like. Please create an alias for this campaign and keep your profiles updated, especially your current HP.
I will roll the initiatives before hand and here is how I will handle knowledge checks and some perception checks (though in some cases you will still need to request these). You post your appropriate roll and if they succeed then your character would know what is behind the “spoiler” though you as player will always be allowed to look at these spoilers.
When there is information that I do not want the players to know without an awesome roll then I will not post it as a spoiler. I would ask for a roll and if I see a high enough roll I will post the appropriate spoiler. Here is an example of a knowledge spoiler:
For example in the first campaign when you guys first spotted The Blot in the sky:
Knowledge Arcana
phenomena connected to its infamous
Cyphergate Riddle—the long-sought hidden
purpose of the stone arch that rises over the
harbor. Old accounts tell of strange lights
moving in the sky and sounds issuing forth from
it without explanation. The manifestation of a
shadow in the sky is something new, though.
existence of the hovering shadow, and it does
not bear the trappings of any known spell.
scholar) postulated that the Blot is some sort of
convergence for focusing arcane energies. He has
yet to prove his hypothesis but is running several
experiments to test its validity.
When there is information that only one of the players should know, like the times when the DM calls a player into the other room, I will send you an email or tell you on gtalk, whichever you prefer more.
So feel free to post and ask more questions
Shivi present and accounted for. Note the charsheet when you click the name.
This is Beaky and she is one of the DM's aliases, thus Shivi will say what she wants Beaky to do and I will interpret that and play it out.
Variel here. Quickly still busy converting my char into 1s and 0s...
Lien reporting for duty. Ready to destroy all evil which dares oppose me!
Here is Derrin, me the DM will also be playing him. You all are welcome to shout suggestions to him in combat or discuss tactics with him outside of combat or even OOC. His primary concern would be to help Shivi the best he can as his loyalties lies the strongest with her.
Its so god damn late I probably have 100 mistakes on this thing.
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Nice to see you all here.
I am currently creating the next few aliases and maps I will need for the next two encounters. I will let you know when I am done.
But I am in no rush, I just want to make sure I am ready when you guys are and that you won't need to wait for me.
I will post the link for the PbP in this thread as soon as I have created it.
Would you like me to post the Map of Celwynvian here or in the other thread?
Thanks again for trying this out :)
Nice to see you all here.
I am currently creating the next few aliases and maps I will need for the next two encounters. I will let you know when I am done.
But I am in no rush, I just want to make sure I am ready when you guys are and that you won't need to wait for me.
I will post the link for the PbP in this thread as soon as I have created it.
Would you like me to post the Map of Celwynvian here or in the other thread?Thanks again for trying this out :)
It would be cool if we had only one page to visit for all the maps/links.
Cos you cant edit posts on here after a certain amount of time, so you cant edit the first post's links. Its also not practical to have links scaterred all through a thread.
Grrr, forums ate my post, but I was going to suggest using a 3rd party program like GameTable Or something similar for the combat mapping and keeping track of movements? Anyone know anything better or other options? I'm not really clued up on the PbP scene.
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It would be cool if we had only one page to visit for all the maps/links.Cos you cant edit posts on here after a certain amount of time, so you cant edit the first post's links. Its also not practical to have links scaterred all through a thread.
Henri and I have thought maybe I can create a wiki that has the additional information on there. The wiki will also link back to this thread and the PbP thread.
Currently I am checking out exactly how this will be done, but it seems like a better idea than making a new thread for everything.
Grrr, forums ate my post, but I was going to suggest using a 3rd party program like GameTable Or something similar for the combat mapping and keeping track of movements? Anyone know anything better or other options? I'm not really clued up on the PbP scene.
GameTable is more for "live" action. We'll be posting hardcore, using something like this map here.
Combat is theoretically turn-based; but everybody posts what they doing (possibly with GTalk coordination) in any order - and the GM compiles this (in appropriate order) into turn summaries. That way we don't have to wait for someone before posting.
Also... if there is too much time before a char posted their turn (say a day), then that char gets auto-piloted for the turn.
By request, here is the loot we currently have and its sell value:
ITEM: Sell price:
3x mwk leather armor 465g
8x mwk hand crossbows 1600g
3x mithral shirt 1650g
3x mwk rapier 480g
scroll of web 75g
wand of magic missile 375g
2x full plate 1500g
2x heavy steel shield 20g
2x whip +1 2001g
2x mwk flail 308g
20gp 20g
2x holy symbol - demon lord 25g
Dretch sphere 2500g
Books on shadow plane Plot item
8x alchemical fire bolts 80g
18x acid bolts 90g
3x drow poison bolts 112.5g
6x smokesticks 60g
3x acid vial 15g
3x alchemists fire 30g
handcrossbow +1 1050g
Adamantine chainshirt 2550g
3x studded leather +1 1537.5g
3x mwk composite longbow (str +4) 1200g
3x mwk rhoka sword 457.5g
1x firel opel 1000g
scroll of clairvoyance 187.5g
wand of spiritual weapon(10) 450g
horn of good/evil 3250g
cloak of arachnida 7000g
-----
total: 30089g
This is substantially more than I thought things would be worth.
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Good news, you guys will be able to buy/sell now
Lien has posted the loot list so you guys can discuss what is being kept and what is being sold.
In the PbP I will explain why you guys were able to shop now.
Also we’ll need to find a way to keep track of the loot, was thinking of using the wiki for that as well once it is up and running. But the exact details is up for discussion.
I vote for keeping the horn of good.
Loot should be divided by 4.5 (with the .5 share going to Derrin)
I vote for keeping the horn of good.
Agreed.
I also agree, with selling. I don't agree all that much with the divide by 4.5, my take is if you have followers, they share from your take of the loot. That way, if you choose to have followers you aren't busy taking things from the rest of the party.
Id suggest normal loot division, then the people with followers can split the rest of the loot evenly. If not there is nothing stopping me from taking leadership as well leaving my henchman behind to make money with profession, craft or perform ranks in town. He wouldn't get a part of the loot division, because he isn't on the battlefield. This way it would more than make up for that loot I'm loosing out on. Oh wait, i might do this anyway...
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When you guys are getting rewards from an NPC each member of the party will get the same amount of rewards. To an NPC the cohort who goes on the missions with the party will look as much part of the party as the rest of the party members and thus will be rewarded as much as a normal party member. A cohort that stays at home and craft/perform/profession will not be rewarded for missions being completed by the party as they did not go on the mission itself. But then again the craft/perform/profession will more than make up for that.
I can set up the rules for how NPC will deal with rewards, but loot is an issue that the party itself should sort out. And I will not increase all the loot in the campaign with .5 just because there is a cohort in the party. That is way too much effort.
On another note, a cohort is not controlled by the player, the cohort is not even an alias of the player, neither is an animal companion or a familiar. I will play these characters out and they might not always do/buy the things you want. They will use their own money to buy the things they want, if you want them to buy the things you want you have to give them the money. I will also be part of the character creation of a cohort.
Under normal circumstances I'd fully agree with the 4.5 distribution, as while he's around he's making all the fights easier and so the 4.5 loot distribution is the way of intentionally making us weaker to compensate for us being more.
BUT, this campaign isn't a normal situation. Firstly, party wealth is already way below par, for instance, Lien is at 25% of lvl 8 wealth, and none of the rest of us are above 50%. So character wealth is quite a sore point currently, dividing what little we have even further is only going to make this worse.
Secondly, the rest of the party has been disallowed to take leadership, I know Emrin wanted to take it too but was stopped. This means that we can never balance things out by getting our own cohorts, as if everyone got one it'd be easy enough to divide by 4 and let PC+cohort distribute as desired.
The big thing is though that Derrin is seen as a character of Shivi, while we played live he had full control over Derrin and I think the image has been created that this is just a way for one PC to get more wealth than the others. Now this perception is what I think is bothering everyone.
So I don't like the 4.5 distribution, unless I'm also allowed to take the leadership feat at some point, or its shown that Derrin is a party resource rather than one charater's pet, and if this was so then there isn't much bonus to taking the feat, which is a whole other arguement.
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or its shown that Derrin is a party resource rather than one charater's pet,nd if this was so then there isn't much bonus to taking the feat
I'm going to try and play Derrin more as an extra party member than an extra character for Henri. In that case there is still bonus to taking the feat as Derrin will obviously be singing and buffing as much as he can, thus the feat making him and the rest of the party have more buffs on them. And Derrin basically do all of the party Knowledge checks, as you guys don't seem to be that learned :P
In the case of a crafter the crafter might go as far as not charge extra for the person he is loyal to, but will make profit from the rest of the party and so on. Leadership is not an easy feat and each case I will evaluate individually, though I am not planning to allow more cohorts at the moment.
I know Emrin wanted to take it too but was stopped.
Derdek Vincion died of spontaneous combustion. It's more common than you think.
If I understand correctly, you said that the cohort will receive full rewards from quests, and the like. If this is correct then their wealth growth will be insanely higher than it should be if we distribute loot wealth too. A cohort is 2 levels lower and its wealth should be progressing as an NPC. This means for us at lvl 8, a lvl 6 cohort should have around 3,450 gp total. The loot wealth on its own will nearly break this value (Ignoring that he started with 2,400gp wealth, which upon inspection isn't even correct, he's already got way higher than this wealth). From that perspective alone I'd argue against it.
My suggestion is that we carry on as per normal assuming 4 players and the DM can use quest rewards and those type of things to keep Derrin's wealth where it needs to be, but also to make sure it doesn't get insanely high as well.
I know Emrin wanted to take it too but was stopped.Derdek Vincion died of spontaneous combustion. It's more common than you think.
rofl, I guess as a wizard that IS quite likely, its what happens if you let your spell components go past their expiry date :(
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Here is the wiki I have been working on so far. You guys can't edit it (yet) but you can make comements (I think). Play around with it a little, I think it can nicely help organise things.
I still think 4.5 is appropriate:
- In no way is "this is just a way for one PC to get more wealth than the others". Shivi also gets less wealth from the division, and Derrin's wealth is in not added to Shivi's (no charitable donations on Derrin's part there)
- Yes, it is "my" character in the sense that I designed Derrin and partially control his progression - but that just means that there is an NPC in our party that is more attuned with party needs than would otherwise
- All of us gain the benefit of the bard's abilities
- All of us can effectively ignore ranks in all knowledges
- There is nothing "special" about this campaign that makes us have less than level-appropriate wealth on average. If a particular pdf is designed to be sparse on wealth, then it's appropriate for us to have less wealth. (I don't think our party has suffered too much in this pdf due to lack of gold.)
- Derrin is a leadership-based cohort. His wealth is based on heroic progression. At level 6 he should thus have 4650gp
- In the long-run we'll all be level appropriately equipped. In the case of NPCs like Derrin, that means excess wealth is syphoned off for in-game/story-related reasons (tribute to Hermea, paid-of-debts, etc) - this doesn't change the fact that these NPCs still deserve appropriate rewards for their actions
- Encounters are, no matter what the GM may admit to, somewhat tougher due to the higher effective party level - tougher encounters generally yield better loot - so Derrin indirectly increases the total loot the party is rewarded; which balances out his cut from the overall loot
- In our specific instance, going from about 7500gp to 6666gp from selling the loot isn't a trainsmash. That adequately balances the free +2/+2 to attack/damage that we receive, as well as various other benefits that we get from Derrin
I had to go back and investigate all the rules actually. Originally I was also thinking that it's correct to reward a cohort similarly to a PC, but the RAW are actually quite specific and made me realise that "leadership" feat isn't as overpowered as I had thought.
Leadership:
"...A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels,..."
"...The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate
for its level (see Chapter 14)."
"...A cohort does not count as a party member when
determining the party’s XP."
I missed the heroic progression, so you are correct with the added wealth from there. He should have 3,450 gp starting wealth at lvl 7 and 4,650 gp at level 8. Given his gear currently comes in over 4350gp, he's already near where he should be for his level.
Cohorts gear and wealth progression is that of an NPC, and this is an important point as they progress MUCH slower in wealth than a PC class. And just as a DM will balance out wealth for PC's if things get out of hand, so to must a DM keep a cohort's wealth in line with his progression. To me this is best done by DM management via other means. If we want to get the cohorts to gain loot wealth then a better fractional value must be calculated as 0.5 is actually way too high for NPC progression. Example: PC's going from 8th to 9th level should gain 13,000gp (46k-33k), a cohort will be going from 7th to 8th NPC levels so he'll gain 1,800gp (7.8k - 6k). Given this its better to say the loot ratio is rather 0.14 that of a higher lvl PC and it'll change as levels do as wealth is on an exponential scale. Which is why I suggest the DM manages it via another route as the maths will become hairy.
According to the XP progression, there might be an argument that a cohort doesn't influence the party APL, and even if he does as long as we stay under 6 total players, the APL will actually decrease with a cohort around. Fractionally though. If the cohort was 5th level our APL will decrease one step and the fights should get easier, though this makes no sense to me.
Okay, here is the ting: there are various ways that the party can handle this. Because the way that the loot sharing is handled falls to the party. Yes the bard is a separate person and a member of the party now. But he is the follower of another party member.
This means that there are some options available to the party on how to do this. which ill post later. Now i gotta go make a fire...
Given this its better to say the loot ratio is rather 0.14 that of a higher lvl PC
What you're doing is calculating the mechanically correct balanced amount. This isn't the intention: the job is to do things realistically for the game world. In the game world there is no distinction between PCs and NPCs as far as the story is concerned - if there is another party member, then he/she gets a share of the loot.
I'm limiting it to a 0.5 share rather than a full share with the in-game argument of "he's not as big a contributor to the success of the party". (Though one shouldn't argue that line too far, as it obviously cannot be applied to PCs.)
Of course, the character doesn't actually get to keep his full share - for balance reasons some of it is "puffed" into thin air. And as much as it hurts some PCs to see money go to "waste", it is the appropriate thing to do.
PS - since I have an idea of what we getting at the end of the pdf, I do *not* think the discussion on "not having enough" is relevant. We'll have plenty. So don't worry about making "your share" of loot bigger - we won't have wealth issues. All characters will have about the right wealth level.
Given this its better to say the loot ratio is rather 0.14 that of a higher lvl PCWhat you're doing is calculating the mechanically correct balanced amount. This isn't the intention: the job is to do things realistically for the game world. In the game world there is no distinction between PCs and NPCs as far as the story is concerned - if there is another party member, then he/she gets a share of the loot.
I'm limiting it to a 0.5 share rather than a full share with the in-game argument of "he's not as big a contributor to the success of the party". (Though one shouldn't argue that line too far, as it obviously cannot be applied to PCs.)
Of course, the character doesn't actually get to keep his full share - for balance reasons some of it is "puffed" into thin air. And as much as it hurts some PCs to see money go to "waste", it is the appropriate thing to do.
PS - since I have an idea of what we getting at the end of the pdf, I do *not* think the discussion on "not having enough" is relevant. We'll have plenty. So don't worry about making "your share" of loot bigger - we won't have wealth issues. All characters will have about the right wealth level.
We might not have wealth issues, but every little bit helps. You cant have too much gold. Especially since we dont have a crafter.
I dont see the cohort as a normal party member. He's no different to a mercenary that you hire to help you in your travels, except that he does it for free because he wants to learn from you or whatever.
The cohort gets XP out of thin air and doesnt affect us. Why cant he also just get money out of thin air that also doesnt affect us. Have the DM update him every once in a while. This will also simplify the maths. Since we wont have money issues you can also give your cohort some of your items/gold
:D
The cohort gets XP out of thin air and doesnt affect us. Why cant he also just get money out of thin air that also doesnt affect us. Have the DM update him every once in a while. This will also simplify the maths. Since we wont have money issues you can also give your cohort some of your items/gold
Technically there is a formula for cohort XP that is a fraction of our XP - but I agree with the bit about abstracting it away. We can agree that the GM gives us loot appropriate for the PCs, thereby obviating the need to have lootshare for the cohort - under the assumption that some of the loot (invisibly) was assigned to the NPCs as appropriate and that they'd be at least level-appropriately geared.
Yes, a merc. That is very accurate to what is going on here, and the person who hired him is whomever has the leadership feat this man is tied to.
basically u can see our 4 main adventurers as 4 different companies working together....
company A, C and D only have one member
while company B has 2...
the original ratio was equal part for everybody
now, company B's son wants some from the big amount. there is no corporation out there that will fall for this plan
company B needs to cater for all of its members from its own capital. am i wrong?
What you're doing is calculating the mechanically correct balanced amount. This isn't the intention: the job is to do things realistically for the game world. In the game world there is no distinction between PCs and NPCs as far as the story is concerned - if there is another party member, then he/she gets a share of the loot.
I'm following the RAW, doing anything else is homebrew and needs DM aproval. On top of that you'll have to convince the other players, which currently you are not doing.
A cohort has a specific wealth progression given to him, as do all PC's, saying he should get higher than this is the same as saying the PC's deserve more too. Greedy, and so respectable, but eventually futile, a DM will never stand for giving a group of lvl 5 PC's 100,000gp each, for example.
Rather leave it up to the DM to make sure the cohort gets his wealth progression. The standard loot is designed for PC progression, as well as other sources. A cohort CANNOT follow these same sources, and I suggest we don't even try.
I'm following the RAW, doing anything else is homebrew and needs DM aproval. On top of that you'll have to convince the other players, which currently you are not doing.
RAW doesn't say anything about loot division relative to PCs/NPCs. It has a wealth progression chart - and my (original) suggestion abides by that chart.
A cohort has a specific wealth progression given to him, as do all PC's, saying he should get higher than this is the same as saying the PC's deserve more too. Greedy, and so respectable, but eventually futile, a DM will never stand for giving a group of lvl 5 PC's 100,000gp each, for example.
You apparently missed the bit where I say that he only *keeps* level-appropriate wealth. He's not being greedy - he's getting a fair share and will always be level appropriately equipped.
Rather leave it up to the DM to make sure the cohort gets his wealth progression. The standard loot is designed for PC progression, as well as other sources. A cohort CANNOT follow these same sources, and I suggest we don't even try.
Agreed, the DM should do it - its fine to abstract it away. It means we get less loot then we would otherwise - but we get to keep all of it for the PCs; the same as I had suggested previously - but with less maths and effort involved. The story will always be consistent: i.e. if we each get rewarded with a bag of 10000gp, then Derrin gets one too - it just happens to go to his impoverished family.
I can be bribed into any direction. Just bring a warm body...
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All characters will have about the right wealth level
Just to make it very clear, the reward at the end of the pdf is per character, so having more (or less) people in the party would not influence the end reward.
On that note, I have checked out the loot and the reward at the end of the pdf. And it works out (I kept in mind that some of you have died) that at the end of the pdf you guys will have more than enough to make up for the losses. So please stop worrying about wealth.
The cohort gets XP out of thin air and doesnt affect us. Why cant he also just get money out of thin air that also doesnt affect us
If you guys can live with that I can totally live with that too, I can give Derrin XP and money that does not affect you guys and you guys keep the loot to yourselves.
If you want him to have anything else, you have to buy it for him out of your own pockets, I’ll keep track, don’t worry. So, is everyone happy with Derrin’s XP and “Loot” being handled by me and not affecting you guys at all?On a different note though, the PbP Thread is up
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All characters will have about the right wealth level
Just to make it very clear, the reward at the end of the pdf is per character, so having more (or less) people in the party would not influence the end reward.
On that note, I have checked out the loot and the reward at the end of the pdf. And it works out (I kept in mind that some of you have died) that at the end of the pdf you guys will have more than enough to make up for the losses. So please stop worrying about wealth.
The cohort gets XP out of thin air and doesnt affect us. Why cant he also just get money out of thin air that also doesnt affect us
If you guys can live with that I can totally live with that too, I can give Derrin XP and money that does not affect you guys and you guys keep the loot to yourselves.
If you want him to have anything else, you have to buy it for him out of your own pockets, I’ll keep track, don’t worry. So, is everyone happy with Derrin’s XP and “Loot” being handled by me and not affecting you guys at all?On a different note though, the PbP Thread is up.
It means we get less loot then we would otherwise
Sweet! We get screwed because you took a feat, next level I want the feat which says "party gets less wealth" too. Does it stack? can I take it multiple times? Sounds like a great feat for a evil rogue, maybe combo with late night pickpocketing? /sarcasm off
Sorry, there is PC wealth progression, and the AP's hopefully try to keep to that (though I have my doubts), reducing this amount because of a option you chose by yourself without the party's concent is just plain wrong and I won't agree to it. Also seems everyone else is in agreement.
Ultimately the DM has to make the call, but there are MUCH better ways of solving this, and what I was saying was closer to how the rules have it written out. We devide wealth up by the amount of PC's, cohorts get their income elsewhere. Means PC's stick to their wealth progression and the cohort doesn't become unbalanced either. At a push I'd agree to having the cohort get 10% of whatever we get (rewards included), as my previous calcs were wrong (its 6th to 7th), but more than that and there is needless waste.
I apologise for the trouble that this caused. We'll play with abstracted cohort wealth.
...
That said :) Shivi will take the horn of good/evil for 2437.5gp; she also orders a Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, and a +1 enhancement to Derrin's mithral shirt.
Purchases applied to alias; about 1138 or so gp remaining
Adding the 812.5gp to my trove
pls go through the list and see if there is anything u can/want to buy.
I am interisted in the cloak of arachnida, which ill have to pay 5250 (1750 per other player)
I do not have this money right now, but im assuming ill have enough after we sell everything else?
Hold that thought...
I am considering ordering an item to be crafted. The item casts tiny hut once per day. Its cost is 3x5x1800/5 = 5400gp. I will call it Robe of Architecture.
Let me know if the maths is right.
I am considering ordering an item to be crafted. The item casts tiny hut once per day. Its cost is 3x5x1800/5 = 5400gp. I will call it Robe of Architecture.
Let me know if the maths is right.
The only consideration I'd have about that is that I cannot really see the spell effect being appropriate for the body slot. Or any item slot on a character. Maybe add a x1.5 multiplier for out-of-slotness, or x2 to make it slotless?
Though the idea of having a robe that actually expands and forms the tiny hut sphere is kinda cool.
Edit: also note that the item would only be available after custom construction - i.e. at the next month's trade convention.
I am considering ordering an item to be crafted. The item casts tiny hut once per day. Its cost is 3x5x1800/5 = 5400gp. I will call it Robe of Architecture.
Let me know if the maths is right.
The only consideration I'd have about that is that I cannot really see the spell effect being appropriate for the body slot. Or any item slot on a character. Maybe add a x1.5 multiplier for out-of-slotness, or x2 to make it slotless?
Though the idea of having a robe that actually expands and forms the tiny hut sphere is kinda cool.
Edit: also note that the item would only be available after custom construction - i.e. at the next month's trade convention.
Yea i had the idea of an expanding robe. Thing is there are so many items that are just spell-in-a-can. I dont see why it needs to have a specific flavorful activation.
I agree with the time delay though, obviously it wont be available right away.
Anyway, I dont think I will be gettin this now.
So we sell everything except the horn and the cloak, so those who are not buying the items all receive 7522.25gp, Shivi will get the horn and 5084.75gp. Variel will get the cloak and 2272.25.
At the same time we sell stuff, I'll sell my horse as well, so I'll get 500gp for it as it was 1000gp buy price.
I think we can update with these values, as there is nothing else we should keep?
I'm also still looking what I'd like to buy...
My purchases will be:
Amulet of natural armour +1 (2000g)
Belt of giant strength +2 (4000g)
Id also like to purchase:
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2K)