I'm DMing a Pathfinder campaign using one of the adventure paths. In tonights session the PC's will be entering a dungeon type complex. As they travel through the dungeon they will be encountering several various Symbol spells placed throughout.
Now, these are magical traps that can detected and disarmed by the party rogue. The party rogue has an excellent perception check (half-elf with Skill Focus!), and also has the Trap Spotter rogue talent that gives her an immediate perception check to notice traps within 10ft of her.
The problem for the PCs is that the symbols are triggered on sight, and that they are visible from up to 60 ft away. Additionally, some of the symbols are placed where they become visible as soon as the party opens a door, so that as soon as the door opens and somebody looks inside, the trap would be triggered.
Additionally, disarming symbols is a difficult thing to do, and takes 2d4 rounds, which would trigger the spell before the rogue could even complete the disarming of it.
Does this sound right? Is it just going to be impossible for the rogue to disarm any of the symbols that are triggered by looking at it?
I don't care either way, just want to make sure I do it right so I don't upset the players. I don't want them to feel cheated.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Here is how to trigger a Symbol of Death. I think all the Symbol of X spells trigger the same way, but I didn't read every one to be sure.
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune).
Summary:
1. Looks at the Symbol from within 60'2. Touches the Symbol.
3. Passes over the Symbol (drawn on the floor).
4. Walks through a door (etc.) on which the Symbol is drawn.
There's a big assumption we need to make here that puts all of this into perspective: Rogues are trained enough to know about Symbol spells and they know how to search for traps without setting the traps off.
That's not even too big an assumption. It's built into the rules for Trapfinding (let's them find magical traps, like Symbols, so the assumption is that they know what they're doing - heck, that's why nobody else can do it; nobody else knows how) and for Perception checks to find traps (rules for failing the roll and setting off the trap are right there in plain text).
So, given that assumption:
1. If the rogue sees the Symbol from more than 60' away, he can avert his gaze and walk right up to it and disable it without looking directly at it. If he sees it within 60', we have to ask whether he was searching for traps or not. If he's just walking around and spots the Symbol, within 60 feet, he should set it off like anyone else. But if he's searching for traps, then a successful roll should let him find the Symbol without setting it off. If he manages to get within 10' without seeing it yet, even if he is not searching, then his Trapfinding skill gives him a chance to find it without setting it off.
2. Well, if he's clueless enough to touch a Symbol without having already searched for traps or found it with Trapfinding, then he sets it off.
3. Same as 2 - by the time he can step on the Symbol, he should have searched and found it, or found it with Trapfinding. If all that failed, he sets it off.
4. Same as 2 - any rogue walking through a dungeon door without first searching for traps is asking for trouble, and if he missed it with Trapfinding, then he sets it off.
Assuming he finds the Symbol, either by spotting it from more than 60' away, or searching for it, or spotting it with Trapfinding, his skill is such that he is able to glimpse it and realize the danger without setting it off. This allows the skillful little trap-monkey to take a shot at disabling it.
Ruling it any other way is undermining the value of the rogue's ability to find and disable traps and would be unfair to the rogue - this is what he does best, the one thing he does better than any other core class. It shouldn't be ruled away from him.
Note: there is one very real danger. If the rogue has a party of dim-witted adventurers plodding along right behind him, and they're within 60' of the Symbol, every PC in the party might see it and trigger it - and since only the rogue has the skill to see it and NOT trigger it, it's a cinch that someone else will see it and set it off before the rogue can do anything about it.
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I agree with DM_Blake: If the rogue is in front of the party and more than 60' away, he can search for traps (at -6 at least for distance). But if the room is set up in such a way that it's impossible to be more than 60' away (10'x10' room, open door, go boom) then it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Of course, Symbols are high level spells designed from the start to be traps, so if the rogue has a hard time with them, that's ok too.
Thanks for writing.
All the symbols in this dungeon are triggered by sight.
In this module, there are several instances where the party is in say a 15x10' room, they pull a level and open a door to another 10x15' room, and on the floor of this room is the Symbol.
So I'm guessing that in such a situation theres just not going to be any way to detect and disarm the trap without it being set off first. (Barring the players knowing the trap is there and averting their gaze.) I have no problem with giving a rogue the opportunity to disable the trap without setting it off, assuming she can do this without looking at the trap. But it would still take 2d4 rounds to do, and I don't see anyway for her to pull this off without the rest of the party seeing the symbol well within range to trigger it.
One other question regarding symbol spells: Symbol of death has a hitponit limit. The Symbols of Pain, Sleep, Insantiy and Persuasion specifically do not have a hit point limit. The Symbols of Stunning, Weakness, and Fear do not have the language saying that they have no hitpoint limit, but rather say that "all creatures" or "every creature" in the area is affected. Are these symbols (fear, weakness, stunning) subject to the hitpoint limit as well? Or just symbol of death?
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Symbol of Weakness does have the language removing the HP limit. In every case, it seems like the HP limit (except Symbol of Death) is referring to a non-instantaneous effect. I'm not sure if the HP limit-retaining symbols actually mean to affect only X number of HP worth of subjects (I think it probably does) or is a clarifiaction on duration (Stunning and Fear are instantaneous effects, they don't stick around for 10m/level).
At least as my rather rapid and cursory glances seem to tell me.
Thanks for writing.
All the symbols in this dungeon are triggered by sight.
In this module, there are several instances where the party is in say a 15x10' room, they pull a level and open a door to another 10x15' room, and on the floor of this room is the Symbol.
So I'm guessing that in such a situation theres just not going to be any way to detect and disarm the trap without it being set off first. (Barring the players knowing the trap is there and averting their gaze.) I have no problem with giving a rogue the opportunity to disable the trap without setting it off, assuming she can do this without looking at the trap. But it would still take 2d4 rounds to do, and I don't see anyway for her to pull this off without the rest of the party seeing the symbol well within range to trigger it.
That depends.
Sure, the first time, the group will be pretty certain to set it off. They're all standing there watching that door open, and they all see the Symbol within 60', and while the rogue might or might not avert his eyes (probably not, unless he specifically stated he was searching for traps while the door opened), everyone else is going to automtatically set it off.
But, next time they pull a lever and some door opens somewhere, the players might be smart enough to avert their eyes. If they say that, then the won't see the Symbol. Now the rogue can go disarm it. It might take them 2 or 3 sysmbols to figure out not to look, but assuming they choose not to look, that Symbol is harmless.
Of course, maybe some rooms will have a scary monster blasting them with a ranged attack, and with all the PCs averting their eyes, the monster will get a surprise round and probably gain the benefit of attack from invisible (even if it's not invisible, it is certainly unseen by the PCs who are deliberately not looking in its direction).
One other question regarding symbol spells: Symbol of death has a hitponit limit. The Symbols of Pain, Sleep, Insantiy and Persuasion specifically do not have a hit point limit. The Symbols of Stunning, Weakness, and Fear do not have the language saying that they have no hitpoint limit, but rather say that "all creatures" or "every creature" in the area is affected. Are these symbols (fear, weakness, stunning) subject to the hitpoint limit as well? Or just symbol of death?
I doubt it.
The Death spell, and Symbol of Death, both have a lot in common. Death is pretty much always a function of HP. To kill something, you remove its HP. These spells that kill stuff outright have HP limits, almost as if they are doing HP damage.
Other spells, like Deep Slumber or Cause Fear, etc., have no bearing on HP at all. It's hard to inflict 150 HP of Fear or 150 HP of Sleep. The victims are either afraid or asleep or whatever, or they aren't. Likewise with the other Symbols. Their effects aren't really based on the HP of the victims.
Also, if your players (or their characters) have any survival instincts, after blithely running into the first symbol they will change their tactics in anticipation that there are more symbols scattered around the dungeon.
If the characters discuss it, you can give the rogue the "professional" info (with or without skill checks) that he would know on techniques to avoid setting symbols off. They can use the info to figure out logical countermeasures.
D'oh! Ninja'd by DM_Blake
Also, I don't see where Trapspotter states that you need line of sight or line of effect to make the Perception check. Potentially, you can Trapspot a symbol on the other side of a door, assuming it was within 10' (and you take the Perception DC penalty for the intervening door).
Interesting idea, but probably going too far.
Sure, maybe some traps can be smelled, or heard. But a Symbol trap is visual only, so it seems very unlikely that anyone can detect it without line of sight.
Of course, it could be houseruled that the guy who created the Symbol had to use rotting meat and vinegar as spell components, and a clever rogue can smell a Symbol through a door. Or it could be houseruled that a Symbol produces a sumbsonic hum and hte vibrations can be heard or felt through a door. But since there is nothing like that in the text as written, I'm pretty sure this would take some houseruling.
Alternatively, we could define Trapfinding as some kind of 6th sense, a premonition, little hairs on the back of your neck, and not require any kind of normal sensory input to use this class ability. That is probably not as far fetched as the vinegar Symbols, actually. Possibly even doable, if that's how a DM wants to define this ability.
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I don't think I'd go so far as to allow sight based perception checks through walls and doors or what not (without some magical ability allowing the same).
Fortunately for the party, theres only a handful of actual creatures in this dugneon. Granted, they are all pretty tough, but the party faces them one at a time. So in any event, some of the symbol effects would wear off before anything bad happens; others, not so much.
The only symbol that really worries me is Symbol of Insanity. They won't have any way to cure that effect till making it out of the dungeon, as they are only 8th level. Also unfortunately, the rogue failed her trapspotting check to notice this one (this one is touch based, on a lever), as I prerolled all her trapspotting checks already. Shes smart though, she will probably search the lever before she touches it.
So I'll just play it straight up and see how they do. Thanks again.