there is a decent sized list regarding two weapon fighting and dex based feats, so i was thing if making some two handed fighting feats starting with remaking a monkey grip feat and build from there.
i was hoping that some of you might have done something like this and would help me make some of these feats.
one thing i want to do is make some heavy weapon feats based on the idea of using a large weapon building from the monkey grip feat.
Well ... you *could* do something like reverse the assumptions - ie: since 2-handed weapons need 2-hands, they can't take the 2-handed str bonus and just apply their normal bonus first (ie: big house rule first - effort required to use it properly isn't the same thing as "added leverage" anyway - you need 2 hands to use the freakin' thing, AND it generally already will do more damage or whatever - the bonus is already accounted for in the weapon - follow?).
From there, you could make a feat to grant that 1.5 thing to str bonus for the 2-handed weapons (representing special "gift" in using them beyond the norm), and then keep tossing on a few more that do the same thing, but say x2 and x3 (probably stop there, though - x3 is REALLY big #'s, IMO).
Or, if you don't wanna mess with that, just add in the new feats. {ie: x2 and x3 - or maybe 2.5 and then 3? whatever - just some thoughts to play with}
Hmm ... beyond the monkey grip - what else could you do? take away the penalty? +1 feat for 1 point difference negated - or all (however it works - not 100% on it off hand). Umm ... yeah. I can't see going up even higher in size - the large sized things are already honkin' monstrously sized weapons! I can't imagine improving that to Huge size weapon wielding - at that point you're talking about things that fully outweigh/size you by more than double. I'm not really sure how to progress with that ... maybe adding the reach of a Large-type critter? or just +5' effectively (since you're not getting bigger, but the weapon itself simply gains "reach" for being big).
Building from the monkey grip feat is not going to be a Two-hander weapon build though. Since monkey grip makes you take a large weapon one handed. (I dislike this, but to each his own)
And, when you use it that way you loose the good stuff about 2 handed weapons, Str x1.5. So, take a look at Beta, some neat things there, and probably they are comming back with some of those for us. (Official answer would be neat regarding this)
Monkey Grip: base attack +1
You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change.
Normal: you can not use a larger two handed weapon at all.
now before you say anything i just copied the important info from the feat from 3.5 so i know this isn't all of what the feat says.
the important bit here is that with the feat you could use a normally two handed weapon with one hand with a -2 penalty and a larger two handed weapon in two hands with a -2 penalty.
so building from this feat would be the best way to go for two-handed weapon feats, now more than likely i would go with improved monkey grip which would remove -1 from the penalty and maybe also go with increasing str to damage to x3 instead of x2. (if i am wrong and it normally is x1.5 str then drop it to x2 instead.)i would probably require a str of 15 and monkey grip for this feat.
Heavy weapon defense: str 15, monkey grip
you gain a +2 deflection bonus to your AC when using a larger two-handed weapon.
the idea behind this is the weapon you have learned to use is large enough to deflect against attacks much like a shield.
greater monkey grip: str 17, monkey grip, improved monkey grip.
decrease penalty -1 so no more penalty to using larger two handed weapon, increase str bonus to damage to x2.5
greater monkey grip: str 17, monkey grip, improved monkey grip.
decrease penalty -1 so no more penalty to using larger two handed weapon, increase str bonus to damage to x2.5
So a human fighter can take monkey grip, improved monkey grip, and greater monkey grip at first level. Then purchase a large greatsword.
If he has 18 Str, the first level human fighter will be able to do 3d6 + 10 damage per attack, with ZERO penalties to the attack. This fighter will slaughter everything.
Seriously, maybe you should think about changing the requirements on that feat just a little bit? And honestly, increasing str bonus damage to x2.5 is hax at any level.
yeah your right about the level thing i need to throw in a level requirements for those things.
lets go with base attack + for improved monkey grip/ heavy weapon defense.
and base attack f +11 for greater monkey grip.
if you feel the bonus str to damage is too big i understand but i think it will work for my group, compare it to a person using two weapons with the two weapon fighting feats and the double slice feat.
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These are the feats my group uses, updated (significantly) from the Beta rules:
(Combat)
When wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can deliver a mighty blow.
Benefit: Once per round you can declare an attack with a two-handed melee weapon to be an Overhand Chop. If the attack hits, add double your Strength bonus to the damage roll. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.
(Combat)
You are skilled at using your return swing to deal additional damage your foes.
Prerequisites: Overhand Chop, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: On the next attack you make in the same round after dealing damage with Overhand Chop, you may add triple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of an attack with a two-handed melee weapon. This feat can apply to attacks of opportunity you make when it is not your turn, but only if the last attack you made on your turn dealt damage with Overhand Chop. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.
We found Devastating Blow to be far too good, even with its drawbacks, so we changed it thusly:
(Combat)
Your final strike hits with devastating power.
Prerequisites: Backswing, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: On the next attack you make in the same round after dealing damage with Backswing, you may add quadruple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of an attack with a two-handed melee weapon. This feat can apply to attacks of opportunity you make when it is not your turn, but only if the last attack you made on your turn dealt damage with Backswing. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.
just curios how did the original Devastating Blow work
These are the feats my group uses, updated (significantly) from the Beta rules:
(Combat)
When wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can deliver a mighty blow.
Benefit: Once per round you can declare an attack with a two-handed melee weapon to be an Overhand Chop. If the attack hits, add double your Strength bonus to the damage roll. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.(Combat)
You are skilled at using your return swing to deal additional damage your foes.
Prerequisites: Overhand Chop, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: On the next attack you make in the same round after dealing damage with Overhand Chop, you may add triple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of an attack with a two-handed melee weapon. This feat can apply to attacks of opportunity you make when it is not your turn, but only if the last attack you made on your turn dealt damage with Overhand Chop. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.We found Devastating Blow to be far too good, even with its drawbacks, so we changed it thusly:
(Combat)
Your final strike hits with devastating power.
Prerequisites: Backswing, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: On the next attack you make in the same round after dealing damage with Backswing, you may add quadruple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of an attack with a two-handed melee weapon. This feat can apply to attacks of opportunity you make when it is not your turn, but only if the last attack you made on your turn dealt damage with Backswing. The extra damage from this feat is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your...
At the same time that I like these feats I think they could be a bit much (that's just me though). I'm currently playing a 10th level Elf Fighter and using an Elven Curve Blade with Power Attack and I'm dealing 1d10+28 points of damage.
It's all too much. And not adding it to critical hits makes no sense. It's not precision damage, it's not even close to it. Str x3? It will kill anything in it's path. Str x2 is already strong. (I used it, it makes a LOT of diference) x3 is just insane.
one of the big reasons i wanted to write up some feats for str based characters using two handed weapons is to sort of balance out the options compared to dual wielding.
i want to give characters with a higher str some feat options much like the dual wielding feats that require a high dex, but i find it interesting that you feel that feats directed in this area should be restrained and careful not to be too powerful. I personally have always felt that the direct melee character has been penalized power wise compared to any other build, in the end all i really want is to fair it up for this fighting style.
one last note i do not count any class features for this, they just don't count this is about feats and feats alone.
one of the big reasons i wanted to write up some feats for str based characters using two handed weapons is to sort of balance out the options compared to dual wielding.
i want to give characters with a higher str some feat options much like the dual wielding feats that require a high dex, but i find it interesting that you feel that feats directed in this area should be restrained and careful not to be too powerful. I personally have always felt that the direct melee character has been penalized power wise compared to any other build, in the end all i really want is to fair it up for this fighting style.
one last note i do not count any class features for this, they just don't count this is about feats and feats alone.
Strength characters really only need power attack and they're set, maybe cleave and great cleave. You deal 2 points of extra damage for every 4 BAB you have and if you're using a 2 handed weapon you add half to the result. Power Attacking with a 2 handed weapon brings out a bunch of damage. A raging barbarian or a fighter with both Weapon Specializations deals quite a bit of damage.
you may feel that way and you have all the right in the world to feel that way i just don't agree, i feel that there is not enough feats oriented towards high str characters and two handed weapon fighting.
besides the power attack chain is corespondent to the combat intuition chain not the dual wielding chain, and half of what i am talking about is in regards to a feat chain based for two handed weapon fighting to balance against the dual wielding chain.
you may feel that way and you have all the right in the world to feel that way i just don't agree, i feel that there is not enough feats oriented towards high str characters and two handed weapon fighting.
besides the power attack chain is corespondent to the combat intuition chain not the dual wielding chain, and half of what i am talking about is in regards to a feat chain based for two handed weapon fighting to balance against the dual wielding chain.
If you use the mass damage rule a person using a Two Handed Weapon+Power Attack can deal 50 points of damage with 1 attack around 10-12th level depending on their strength, race, and class.
but my real point isn't how much damage you can do but more over what can you pull off with a big str and a two handed weapon. the monkey grip feats for me are a natural progression thing, I'm not trying to get as much damage as i can with them its just that that's how i feel those feats should work, i am actually more interested in what kind of maneuvers or i should say actions you can pull off with a big str and a bigger weapon.
But monkey grip is no where near as good as power attack. The benefit isn't as good as the gain. You get to do ruffly 1-2 more points of damage in the end for a -2 on all your attacks (granted you get to lug around a huge sword and pretend you're from final fantasy or some anime which is always kind of fun). Monkey Grip needs to become more tempting before you add a progression to it.
i can understand that, and that is why i am working on some feats.
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Honestly, wielding a two-handed melee weapon as a Str-based Fighter is already pretty optimal. But if you insist...
For levels 1-5, I wouldn't change anything. They already pretty much slaughter anything in their path, plus they'll be taking things such as Power Attack, Vital Strike, and so on. After that, I'd modify the Two Weapon Fighting tree to suit your needs...
Improved Two-Handed Wielding (Combat)
You learn to balance when attacking with a two-handed weapon.
Pre: Str 17, bab +6
Benefits: Your second and later attacks in a Full Attack get a +2 (or it could be +1...) to hit.
Greater Two-Handed Wielding (Combat)
When attacking with a two-handed weapon, you've learned to balance almost perfectly.
Pre: Str 19, Improved Two-Handed Wielding, bab +11
Benefits: Your third and later attacks in a Full Attack get an additional +2 (or it could be +1...) to hit.
Two-Handed Defence (Combat)
You are skilled at defending when wielding a two-handed weapon.
Pre: Str 15
Benefits: When wielding a two-handed weapon, you get a +1 Shield bonus to your AC.
And so on like that...
I like those!!
Good ideas, Austin.