Thank you NSpicer,
This is basically what I was thinking as far as reasoning that this could be possible. I have never really had to justify why I thought it was possible. I would expand it slightly and say that not just an attack spell, but any spell that also forces a concentration check...such as my ever favorite entangle.
I have always been a Pro-PC DM though. I also have a tendency to err on the side of Cool.
Anyway, once again kicking myself over the notes issue...I should be home in a couple of hours and can at least post the rest of this room, and maybe get y'all started on the next.
As always,
DM Berwick
|
Thanks, Neil and DM Berwick. I agreed that it would be odd to allow counterspelling and not attack spells, but I was interpreting "attack" more narrowly. Thus, my question.
I know the disadvantage of readied actions vs. delayed, and I think that Origen would probably only use the tactic if we were facing a single caster (possibly with a few mooks).
As a follow-up question, can you ready an action for "when opponent X takes a standard action" or "when opponent X does anything besides move"? This would seem to be a condition, but it may be too broad and metagamey in its terms to be allowable. Again, I'm fine wtih a ruling either way.
I would say that "standard action" is "metagamey", but "makes any aggressive actions towards my allies" is "in-game" enough...
"Does anything besides move" seems fair game though.
Let's open up the floor. What do the rest of you think on this issue?
I am all about democracy here.
DM Berwick
|
|
Origen in melee and flat-footed. If the crazies retain any tactical sense, this may be a painful round for him.
His inability to use Color Spray to hit both opponents suggests another readied action idea: What if a PC readed the action "close my eyes till a second after X stops talking" with the trigger "when X casts a spell"? Because of the previously mentioned badness of losing an action, this tactic would only rarely be useful, but I'm trying to create a way to use Color Spray selectively against enemies in a confused melee.
Origen could use an uncommon trigger word to propose the strategy in-game (e.g., "ambergris"), and if a companion in the likely area of effect didn't think that it made sense, he could just take a regular action, which would tip off Origen to do something else.
Of course, Origen could also use "PC X, trigger word" to mean "PC X, move because I'd like to cast an area-effect spell and don't want to hit you." This might be more generally applicable, especially if he had different words for different types of area-effect spells.
As a follow-up question, can you ready an action for "when opponent X takes a standard action"...
No. It has to be a specific action you're concentrating on detecting so you can then interrupt them with your readied action. So you can't throw out a broad range of possible actions as the trigger. You'd need to select a specific standard action (i.e., casting a spell, swinging a weapon, etc.)...
...or "when opponent X does anything besides move"?
No. Also wouldn't work. You're not being specific enough. You could word it as "when opponent X opens his mouth (presumably to speak or start casting a spell)..." or "when opponent X moves (a single muscle, not simply a move action)..."
Basically, the readied action is useful when you've got the drop on an opponent and you tell him to freeze or you'll put an arrow in him. Thus, a player could say "if he makes any sudden move, I fire at him..." and that would be acceptable. But you couldn't say "if he moves, I'm not going to fire...but if he does anything else, I will..." That's just too generic. What if he opens his mouth to speak? You shoot him? What if he tries to take out a document to prove he's not your enemy? You shoot him? What if he casts a spell without any somatic components? You shoot him? There's just too many possibilities to have a catch-all trigger like that. A readied action needs to state you're specifically looking for some kind of behavior, not the exclusion or absence of a whole range of behaviors.
My two-cents,
--Neil
What if a PC readied the action "close my eyes till a second after X stops talking" with the trigger "when X casts a spell"?
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You seem to be suggesting that you want all of the other PCs to ready an action to close their eyes based on something they're waiting to hear you say...i.e., "ambergris" so they know a color spray is coming before you cast it. If that's what you're suggesting, it's an interesting question.
Speaking a short trigger word like "ambergris" should be a free action and it can be done at anytime, not just on your turn. However, you'd be counting on everyone else in the party to constantly ready their actions based on what you may or may not do. And, if your action never came to pass in a given round, we'd lose our action for that round. Basically, we would never know when you're about to say "ambergris"...so, unless you told everyone right before we went into a situation that you were intending to cast color spray and to close our eyes when we hear you say "ambergris"...presumably everyone wouldn't be readying actions to do that without such planning. Even then, it's our choice on whether we follow your instructions or not, of course.
But, presuming you did tell us beforehand...and we did ready actions to close our eyes (which should be an immediate action, by the way), then presumably, you could carry out your color spray in a given round without affecting the rest of us (because sightless creatures...voluntary or otherwise...aren't impacted by that spell).
Because of the previously mentioned badness of losing an action, this tactic would only rarely be useful, but I'm trying to create a way to use Color Spray selectively against enemies in a confused melee.
In a confused melee, I doubt you could reasonably pull this off. As the opening salvo before combat fully breaks out, I could see you doing it. But once the battle is joined, I doubt the entire rest of the party would be readying actions over and over while we waited to hear you say the trigger words again for certain spells. We'd all be risking losing our actions. And we'd have to be waiting to hear a specific single trigger phrase...not just any trigger phrase you might happen to shout.
Origen could use an uncommon trigger word to propose the strategy in-game (e.g., "ambergris"), and if a companion in the likely area of effect didn't think that it made sense, he could just take a regular action, which would tip off Origen to do something else.
I think this goes way too far. You're basically describing read-and-react readied actions for everyone. Origen might say "ambergris" in the hopes of tipping off everyone. But, everyone would have to have already readied an action waiting to hear that specific trigger phrase so they could close their eyes in times to avoid being caught by color spray.
In addition, once Origen used his free action to warn everyone, he wouldn't be able to then ready an action to gauge everyone's response to determine if he should go ahead and cast the spell or do something else. Combat turns and individual actions just don't work that way.
Of course, Origen could also use "PC X, trigger word" to mean "PC X, move because I'd like to cast an area-effect spell and don't want to hit you."
Now, this is entirely plausible. Basically, you'd use a free action to speak (which can be done at anytime during a combat round, not simply on your turn) to warn everyone of what you're about to do. You could either describe a key word or actually just tell people to "Get out of the way!" or "Get down!" and so on. The bottom line, however, is that when you announce your intentions to do this (which again, doesn't have to happen just on your turn during a round, you can state it any point), everyone else would need to make sure they still have move actions available to hit the deck or clear out.
This might be more generally applicable, especially if he had different words for different types of area-effect spells.
That's going to make it a lot more complex. In fact, as a GM, I might even require a Perception check for allies who are further away from you to both hear and understand the intent of your warning. Particularly dim-witted PCs might also need to make an Intelligence-check to correctly recall that a trigger phrase like "ambergris" means a color spray is about to be unleashed...especially if you've filled their head with dozens of different trigger words for possible spells that Origen might cast.
So, it's an interesting exercise. But there are a lot of limitations on spellcasters and area-effect spells for a reason. They're howitzers and heavy-weapons specialists of any combat. And there are intended repercussions for using such spells. Thus, part of the game, in a tactical sense, is for a spellcasting PC to find the best positioning on the battlefield to carry out such area-effect spells.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
|
|
What if a PC readied the action "close my eyes till a second after X stops talking" with the trigger "when X casts a spell"?I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You seem to be suggesting that you want all of the other PCs to ready an action to close their eyes based on something they're waiting to hear you say...i.e., "ambergris" so they know a color spray is coming before you cast it. If that's what you're suggesting, it's an interesting question.
I envisioned it playing out more like this: Early in the round, Origen says a trigger word as a free action, warning companions of a possible AoE spell. Origen either has a low initiative count, or he delays his action till after companions in the AoE act. If they clear out of the way (or are waiting), Origen casts the spell. Otherwise, Origen does something else on his initiative count.
The advantage of the trigger would be a way to warn companions about an area spell without tipping off enemies. The disadvantage would be lost actions, which is probably too high a cost to pay. The "Move out of the way" version of this idea has more promise, especially because it doesn't provide as much constraint on other PC's options.
In general, I don't expect (or want) everyone else to wait around for Origen to cast. That would probably not be a winning strategy in-game, and it would be at best boring for players. As you say, good positioning by Origen and a little OOC table talk to simulate PC tactical experience will probably solve most AoE dilemmas.
But, presuming you did tell us beforehand...
Yes, this isn't relevant to this particular combat. No prior coordination.
As an interesting aside, what does it take action-wise to close one's eyes? Free? Swift? I think I would make it a swift, especially since it carries penalties both beneficial and harmful for doing so.
One could conceivably have two trigger words. "Topless Sea Hag" which conjures nasty images anyway could be to close one's eyes. "Kettlecorn" could be to have people move away from any enemy quickly. Then at least your are either readying a swift action, and/or just a move action, and then still have at a minimum a 5-ft step to indulge a bit of combat manuevering.
Either way, I think NSpicer has a very thorough point.
I would certainly allow such tactical planning, and absolutely wish I could get players at a table who would even have this conversation. As for the current situation, since y'all have made no (IC) hand-wave of "we discuss tactics", I would have to bring down the wrathy doom of the meta-game hammer of cheese +1 on it.
|
|
As an interesting aside, what does it take action-wise to close one's eyes? Free? Swift? I think I would make it a swift, especially since it carries penalties both beneficial and harmful for doing so.
Yes, I agree that immediate is a good choice because you'd have to take the blinded condition till the next round (one immediate/rnd). This would definitely make it a painful tactic. Presumably, you could use an immediate action to close them, but also have a readied swift action of "open eyes 1 sec after Origen stops casting."
This is mostly theoretical, but I think that at some point (not this combat) Origen will probably come up with a "please move" signal. This seems like more of a winning strategy. He's probably not going to convince the other PCs of the benefits of temporarily closing their eyes in melee.
Oh, and Origen isn't taking an attack of opportunity; he's still flat-footed, and he doesn't have a melee weapon handy. Even if he did, he wants to avoid atrraction the attention of the raving maniac till he can cast.
You had me at "Topless Sea Hag."
How is Origen flat-footed? Is it because of the Surprise round? I thought that was only in the surprise round? Maybe I am interpreting this wrong...things have certainly changed, and I appreciate y'all being patient as I am SCHOOLED on the new rule-set.
One is flat-footed until they take an action in combat. If they haven't acted yet, they are considered to be flat-footed in terms of AC, ability to be sneak-attacked, etc.
One is flat-footed until they take an action in combat. If they haven't acted yet, they are considered to be flat-footed in terms of AC, ability to be sneak-attacked, etc.
+1
Basically, everyone's caught flat-footed during the surprise round actions. So that's all of us. Then, everyone is still flat-footed in the continuation of the round until their actual turn comes up in the initiative order. Basically, until you can actually act, you can't reset your condition from flat-footed to something else (i.e., no longer flat-flooted).
This is why surprise is so important to rogues. Not only can they sneak-attack you as their surprise round action, but...if they also get a higher initiative than everyone they surprised...they can sneak-attack another target (or the same one) before they can remove the flat-footed condition.
|
|
This is why surprise is so important to rogues. Not only can they sneak-attack you as their surprise round action, but...if they also get a higher initiative than everyone they surprised...they can sneak-attack another target (or the same one) before they can remove the flat-footed condition.
+1. Then they move into flanking postions in relative safety, which means that the sneak-attack fun continues in round 2. Yes, surprise is a gift that keeps on giving.
Hey howdy y'all,
I had some time to think about why I do this with the posting and what not. I think that I am anxiously reacting to the perceived pase that you are setting. I don't want the game to be held up on my account. I will turn down my anxiety knob, and settle down a bit.
Thanks for your patience and understanding,
DM Berwick
|
|
Thanks for your patience and understanding,
DM Berwick
Please don't worry about it too much. Testing out some different ways for a group to do things and picking the best one makes sense. We'll work out the kinks.
Also, no one knows and remembers every rule: For example, I completely forgot about cover during the first melee. I think that we can just roll with it some of the time (e.g., the kukri/dagger).
Yeah man, no worries. It will all work out.
|
|
Hey, I may be pretty spotty about posting the next couple of days. Sorry, but I'm trying to finish my entry for a Law Review writing competition, and the deadline is Tuesday night.
I'll also be on vaction the first week of June, and I'm not sure about my email access. So if I vanish off the face of the messageboards for that week, it's not flakiness, it's lack of access.
Anyhow, Origen will brood quietly about failing to save the half-orc, and if the party gets in a fight, feel free to take his action quickly. He's trying to save his L1 spells for the fight with Nigel, but if we encounter a large group or a formidable solo, he'll try another Color Spray.
|
|
Okay, I'm done with the paper (and with the semester), thank goodness.
DM Berwick, I had estimated somewhere in the low 500's before fighting the snake and the other man, but 760 seems reasonable to me. I think that under standard rules, the experience for encounters is more determinate in Pathfinder than 3.5E: Beating a monster provides a fixed number of experience no matter what the PCs' levels (at least if it provides some minimal challenge). But I'm not sure of that.
It's a nice weekend for a break anyway - hope everyone has a safe one.
I'll be out of town next weekend - June 4-6 - might have internet access but not sure about having time to check on the game.
It's a nice weekend for a break anyway - hope everyone has a safe one.
I'll be out of town next weekend - June 4-6 - might have internet access but not sure about having time to check on the game.
One more thing: I am having an endoscopy tomorrow (June 1) and will be pretty much out of it for the day, so please NPC Bran for me. You know his pattern of attack - hurl axe, then wade in with drawn steel.
wow! endoscopy! hope that is the one that goes in the throat. either way...good luck! and I hope whatever caused the need for the test is not serious!
Yes, down the throat. Not in the out door! :D
My appointment is for 8:00 am today - if I'm able, I'll check back later tonight, if not, then tomorrow.
Best of luck, mate! I'm sure all will go well.
|
Hey all, I've been ignoring this thread--sorry.
Everyone here has a lot going on in their lives, so I will just send out a blanket post (how very sincere of me).
Best to all in health/family issues. Hope all turns out well.
To those moving, finishing school, and engaging in other endeavors, happier than not--congratulations and best of luck.
This seems to be a really good group of guys--I'm glad to have "met" you all.
Thanks for all the good wishes fellers! The endoscopy went very well and there were no complications or anything. My throat and stomach were clear
so, all I have is just a genetic case of GERD or reflux.
Will be resting at home for the day...and checking in on the game from time to time! Let's kill some stinkin' dirty apes!!!
It's not. I have it, too. There are medications that can help alleviate the acid burn. Some work better than others. It's also somewhat controllable by restricting yourself from eating certain types of food...basically, anything with a high acid content.
Just a reminder: I will be out of town with limited internet access Friday-Sunday. Please NPC Bran. Thanks.
Yeah, you guys are all a great group! I'm glad to game with and chat with you all.
Also, just in case there is any interest in hearing my band that's sucked up so much of my time, we've got our demo up where you can listen to it:
|
|
Yeah, you guys are all a great group! I'm glad to game with and chat with you all.
Also, just in case there is any interest in hearing my band that's sucked up so much of my time, we've got our demo up where you can listen to it:
Thanks, Sully. I checked out both of the devault demos that you linked. I thought they were well-done, but the style of rock is too hard for my personal taste. Anyway, congrats on your first album!
What are y'alls opinions on ranged disarm/sunder? any of the other special attacks? I would like to get a general consensus before I make any rulings versus a call in this particular case. Any lurkers out there are welcome to comment as well, if you choose.
Thanks,
DM Berwick
Back in the saddle, fellers!
Love the idea of ranged disarm/sunder! I'm all for it - ups the "coolness" factor of the game considerably.
I could see the ranged disarm, and the sunder, but tripping and such are different I suppose. Though there are bolas and specific ammo from the Elves of Golarion book that trip and grapple. I think those would have to be a specific function of an item, but as far as a combat special maneuver, the above mentioned may work out okay.
Question:
Do you guys prefer me to post a huge wall of text with ooc, & dice rolls open like in this post: Wall of Text!
or do you prefer me to keep the rolls in a spoiler and keep everything more fluid like here: Fluid
Or do you like neither and would prefer me to put only IC actions out there, and EVERYTHING else in spoilers?
What is easier for you to read and follow?
Let me know, and I can adapt,
DM Berwick
|
|
I could see the ranged disarm, and the sunder, but tripping and such are different I suppose. Though there are bolas and specific ammo from the Elves of Golarion book that trip and grapple. I think those would have to be a specific function of an item, but as far as a combat special maneuver, the above mentioned may work out okay.
Hmmm, maybe you could create a Trick Shot feat that allows ranged use of combat manuevers.
Also, I may prefer fluid to wall o' text, but don't have a strong preference. Whatever is easier for you to do is fine.
Also, I may prefer fluid to wall o' text, but don't have a strong preference. Whatever is easier for you to do is fine.
+1 - whatever is easiest for you, man!
|
|
This may be slightly premature, but I don't see the Tik Taan lasting more than a few more rounds unless they get really lucky. When our PCs finishes putting them through the woodchipper, we'll probably be done with the adventure.
Assuming that the PCs win, here are possible options for the group's next step:
1) Go on hiatus till Smuggler's Shiv comes out next month. I'd prefer to keep playing.
2) Try another PFS scenario. This seems appealing to me, as it'd be fun to start the adventure path at L2.
3) Do some small homebrew adventure set in Absalom; e.g., Frik/Jonagher gets a lead about their backstory, and we have to check it out in a bad part of town. Also very appealing, but this option would involve more work for you, O Great and Powerful Berwick.
What would you guys prefer to do?
|
|
Question:
Do you guys prefer me to post a huge wall of text with ooc, & dice rolls open like in this post: Wall of Text!
or do you prefer me to keep the rolls in a spoiler and keep everything more fluid like here: Fluid
Or do you like neither and would prefer me to put only IC actions out there, and EVERYTHING else in spoilers?
DM Berwick
I do like the summaries, but it does seem like a heck of a lot of work you shouldn't have to do. Don't make life to hard for yourself.
2) Try another PFS scenario. This seems appealing to me, as it'd be fun to start the adventure path at L2.
3) Do some small homebrew adventure set in Absalom; e.g., Frik/Jonagher gets a lead about their backstory, and we have to check it out in a bad part of town. Also very appealing, but this option would involve more work for you, O Great and Powerful Berwick.
What would you guys prefer to do?
I'd like to keep going with either 2 or 3. And as far as that, I'd leave it up to Mr. GM since he'll have to do the work.
Summaries it is then. The reason I have not been posting as much as I would like is due to dealing with residual flood issues at work. I have been working 8+ hours a day, 7 days a week for a bit now, and it is tiring. Sorry for the slower pace, but together we shall muddle through!
As far as the choices here, I am game for just about anything. I do have to warn you though, the scenario's I make tend to be more dangerous...I believe that there should be encounters out there where the appropriate tactical response is to run away as fast as one's feet can go.
Think it over a bit, and if you guys want to do another scenario, I am current on my PFS library, so I am up for anything I suppose.
I am waiting on Smuggler's Shiv to become available for the subscription, and I will have that, the Heart of the Jungle, Sargava the Lost colony, and the game mastery guide on its way.
And no, I am not rolling in the cashes....I have been saving up, and my wife allowed me to add an ever important "Gaming Books" category to our monthly budget. She is truly an amazing woman! {especially for putting up with me for 5 years!}
Anyway, I am at work here for the next 8 hours and I shall be posting here soon.
Enjoy,
Berwick
Think it over a bit, and if you guys want to do another scenario, I am current on my PFS library, so I am up for anything I suppose.
It might make more sense to play PFS Scenario #35: Voice in the Void next. It's already a follow-up scenario to the Mists of Mwangi, takes place in the same Blakros Museum, and it works for character levels 1-7. So, I assume it can be adapted for us. It's also presumably short enough to sustain us until the Serpent's Skull AP comes out.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
Think it over a bit, and if you guys want to do another scenario, I am current on my PFS library, so I am up for anything I suppose.It might make more sense to play PFS Scenario #35: Voice in the Void next. It's already a follow-up scenario to the Mists of Mwangi, takes place in the same Blakros Museum, and it works for character levels 1-7. So, I assume it can be adapted for us. It's also presumably short enough to sustain us until the Serpent's Skull AP comes out.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
+1
I think this is a good plan. But I'm around for anything! :) I'm back pretty much for good now.