The only instrument I can play with any real degree of fluency is the piano. (I've played the aforementioned Raindrop Prelude, incidentally.) When I was flipping through a book and found a solo piano adaptation of The Stars and Stripes Forever, and considered playing it, I thought "Ah, what's the use? It's just not the same without the piccolo part."
Have you ever read the children's book "My Teacher is an Alien" by Bruce Coville? The piccolo part of The Stars and Stripes Forever plays a pivotal role.
Really? Cool! I'll have to check it out. Of course, I've had to play it, along with all the other piccolists in the country. It's kinda fun, but not as much fun as Rienzi!
I find playing pieces makes me appreciate them on a much deeper level than hearing them, particularly with a good conductor who rehearses the group well. Conductors bring a LOT to the table. I heard Beethoven's 6th performed by the SLSO once with a guest conductor who took it at a snail's pace. Once I stopped the "speed the f**k up!" mental verbiage and actually listened, the piece sounded completely different from the usual performance. I noticed some nuances like never before.
My absolute favorite conductor is Arturo Toscanini, particularly his classic Beethoven Symphony recordings with the NBC orchestra. Anybody else got some conductor love?
EDIT: Toscanini gets a well-deserved TotP!!
While we're on Chopin, gotta go with the so-called "Raindrop Prelude", especially from about 2 minutes on.
Keep it coming, I love this thread!
Never heard that one before. That chord pulsing in the middle of the thing makes my brain ring unpleasantly. Maybe the performer is hitting it more heavily than Chopin intended? I'd like it otherwise.
Links to Symphonie funèbre et triomphale:
Mvt 1: March funèbre, pt 1
Mvt 1: March funèbre, pt 2
Mvt 2: Funeral Sermon
Mvt 3: Apotheose by Berlioz, previously referred to.
Once I master Apotheose, I shall never fear the highest range of my instrument again.
Hope you enjoy Crysanthemums, CH.
Can't beat Dvorak's New World Symphony for its clear influences on Poledouris' score for Conan the Barbarian. It has many little themes that work well for gaming in my opinion.
Smetana's The Moldau also catches the ear for epic overland travel (a considerable upgrade from Shore's LotR score, which I feel is lacking).
I've been moving away from soundtracks as I get older. They're usually merely derived from older pieces of music, and the older pieces have a depth and authenticity I just don't get from the scores.
Oh, right, if your game has any Cthulu mythos or unfathomable cosmic evil, look into Kryzstof Penderecki.
I have problems using real classical pieces for gaming because the classical music actually progresses. Soundtracks usually have separate tracks for "vignette" music which can be played on repeat. Classical tracks are long and include development, so the triumph might pop up before the game calamity is over.
I did find a nice free audio editor and might be able to snip bits from longer pieces for looping, but haven't tried yet.
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I love Rossini. Mostly because so much of his stuff is recognizable in classic cartoons -- Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, etc. I also like Stravinsky because of the complex rythms. Outside of that, truthfully I listen to a lot of soundtracks. My wife thinks I like to feel like I'm in peril all the time. Batman Begins and Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children are two of my favorites. Hans Zimmer is around the best soundtrack composer around.
The piece that I absolutely hate is pachabel's canon. I played the cello from 3rd grade through 11th grade. Go to You Tube and search for "Pacabel Rant" and you'll know my pain. (Can't go to You Tube from work otherwise I'd link it.)
Recently I discovered the name of a piece I loved for years but could never find the title. You hear it everywhere: O Fortuna by Carl Orff
As DM Wellard pointed out, the whole "Carmina Burana" work is great. One section has some of the sweatiest lyrics I've ever heard - check out the translation for Part III. Hot stuff! Who says classical music is boring? :P
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Recently I discovered the name of a piece I loved for years but could never find the title. You hear it everywhere: O Fortuna by Carl OrffAs DM Wellard pointed out, the whole "Carmina Burana" work is great. One section has some of the sweatiest lyrics I've ever heard - check out the translation for Part III. Hot stuff! Who says classical music is boring? :P
The tenor solo has some awesome lyrics too. (It's also quite possibly the highest piece of music [pitch-wise] for tenor in the standard repertoire.) Pretty funky stuff for 12th century poetry.
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This thread continues to inspire me. I just listened to the entire Der Fliegende Hollander. It's always such amazing stuff. Despite having all of Wagner's major works in my library, I don't listen to it nearly as much as some of my other music.
Now I'm listening to Schumann, which admittedly has nothing to do with anything anyone has discussed on this thread - I just like it. (Rhenish Symphony at the moment. The 4th movement rocks my world, and would probably make good game music if someone is looking for that sort of thing.)
I don't know how I would get through my workday without my iPod (and the Paizo messageboards, for that matter).
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Hope you enjoy Crysanthemums, CH.
I got my CD, and this is a great piece. I immediately recognized the main themes because he recycled them for Manon Lescaut. (He often reused material from his non-operatic work that way. Manon Lescaut also features the music he used as the "Agnus Dei" in his Messa di Gloria, and his Cappriccio Sinfonico was borrowed to become some of the most famous material from La Boheme.) Thanks for turning me on to this! (And if you're not familiar with Manon Lescaut, you should be; the plot's a little weaker than some of his more famous operas, but I think it's some of his most expressive and breathtaking music.)
(Speaking of Manon Lescaut's weak plot, it's particularly jarring for Americans that Manon is exiled to the barren deserts of Louisiana. Clearly the geography of that opera is a little lacking. The love story angle, however, is relatively effective.)
Hope you enjoy Crysanthemums, CH.I got my CD, and this is a great piece.
Sweet!! Glad you like it. Its harmonies seem odd but compelling.
(Speaking of Manon Lescaut's weak plot, it's particularly jarring for Americans that Manon is exiled to the barren deserts of Louisiana. Clearly the geography of that opera is a little lacking. The love story angle, however, is relatively effective.)
A swamp is a desert with its life aboveground?
We have a Copeland concert next month. Can anybody tell me why I should like Copeland? I'm pretty meh about him and would like something good to look for in his work.
Can anybody tell me why I should like Copeland? I'm pretty meh about him and would like something good to look for in his work.
You mean Aaron Copland? Well... the Hoedown from his ballet Rodeo is pretty catchy. Beef; it's what's for dinner.
How about the Fanfare for the Common Man?
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Can anybody tell me why I should like Copeland? I'm pretty meh about him and would like something good to look for in his work.You mean Aaron Copland? Well... the Hoedown from his ballet Rodeo is pretty catchy. Beef; it's what's for dinner.
How about the Fanfare for the Common Man?
1. Appalachian Spring
2. Quiet City3. Concerto for clarinet and orchestra
4. The Tender Land
Copland has some incredible music. Some of it you have to listen to a few times to really get a feel for where he is coming from. It took me a little while to "get" Copland, but now I can't listen to enough of it. It has a stirring simplicity to it that is uniquely Copland and uniquely American in sound.
That's what Celestial Healer said. He said...
We're doing
- Lincoln Portrait
- Hoe-down from Rodeo
- Fanfare for the Average Joe
- Some Shaker thing I don't have the music for yet
Is Lincoln Portrait the one with the narrative by Walt Whitman or something?
I've heard Hoedown and Fanfare - they've been done to death lately. If the Shaker thing is based on "Simple Gifts," I've heard it, too. I liked them before they got so overexposed.
Our dress rehearsal is next week and I've never played these things. I'm less than enthused.
We're doing
- Lincoln Portrait
- Hoe-down from Rodeo
- Fanfare for the Average Joe
- Some Shaker thing I don't have the music for yet
Is Lincoln Portrait the one with the narrative by Walt Whitman or something?
I've heard Hoedown and Fanfare - they've been done to death lately. If the Shaker thing is based on "Simple Gifts," I've heard it, too. I liked them before they got so overexposed.
Our dress rehearsal is next week and I've never played these things. I'm less than enthused.
I think the narration was written by Carl Sandburg? Yes, 'Tis the Gift, you've got it. Yeah, I'm generally only in the mood for AC when I'm feeling all Americany, which is probably like once a year. But don't tell the guys, or I'll never live it down. Eurotrash, away!
Yeah, I'm generally only in the mood for AC when I'm feeling all Americany, which is probably like once a year. But don't tell the guys, or I'll never live it down. Eurotrash, away!
Never fear, your secret is safe on the Interwebs.
Guess I'll live through it, but it's a letdown after Saint-Saens. Of course, playing something usually gives me a much deeper appreciation of the music, so it'll be fine. At this point, surviving the conductor will be the hardest task.
What Saint-Saens? Did I miss that? Carneval? Bacchanal? Something like that?
What Saint-Saens? Did I miss that? Carneval? Bacchanal? Something like that?
Cello Concerto (with a wonderful cellist) and Symphony No. 3 (with organ). Awesome works.
I'm thinking of some S-S piece that sounds like a bunch of belly dancers would be dancing to it.
You mean from the opera "Samson and Delilah?"
Danse Bacchanale! Bingo!
This is an awesome site for musical research, BTW. I love being able to see full scores!
That's what Celestial Healer said. He said...
Oh, yeah, CH: it was your blatant disregard for my superior humor. Blast you!
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We're doing
- Lincoln Portrait
- Hoe-down from Rodeo
- Fanfare for the Average Joe
- Some Shaker thing I don't have the music for yet
Is Lincoln Portrait the one with the narrative by Walt Whitman or something?
I've heard Hoedown and Fanfare - they've been done to death lately. If the Shaker thing is based on "Simple Gifts," I've heard it, too. I liked them before they got so overexposed.
Our dress rehearsal is next week and I've never played these things. I'm less than enthused.
I've decided to expound a little further, for no particular reason. Sometimes knowing more about the music makes it more interesting for me.
As the Great Depression wore on, and even moreso with the start of World War 2, he developed a patriotic sense that he had a responsibility as an artist to create works that uplifted and united his country. He abandoned his earlier style in favor of composition based on American folk styles that was immediately accessible to his audiences. Much of this music pays particular attention to the common people and an idealized egalitarian take on American society, which appealed to Copland's Marxist sympathies. In particular, the Fanfare for the Common Man specifically subverts the original use of the fanfare (to signal the arrival of an important person) to make a statement that the strength of the US comes from the proletariat rather than the landed aristocracy of history.
After World War 2, Copland once again adopted a more avant-garde approach to composition, writing primarily in a serial style (a form of 12-tone composition) that was again rather academic and inaccessible. He broke from that style on a few occasions to write in his middle-period style in response to specific commissions.
It's interesting that his works from approximately 1936-1948 have defined him as the "composer of the American heartland". He is an unlikely candidate for this moniker given that he was: 1. Socialist, 2. gay, 3. Jewish, 4. from Brooklyn. His compositional output has a way of picking up on what is "American" in a way that is identifiable to people from all backgrounds. His music tends to transcend traditional cultural divisions to become part of a collective musical heritage.
That does help some, CH. Thanks for the info. We survived the rehearsal. A cool professional voice dude is doing Lincoln Portrait, which helps too.
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Lately I am particularly enamored with Scriabin's Piano Concerto. I seemed to recall that he was an interesting fellow, but I had forgotten most of what I learned about him back in school, so I read up on Wikipedia. It's some crazy stuff. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions on his music?
Lately I am particularly enamored with Scriabin's Piano Concerto. I seemed to recall that he was an interesting fellow, but I had forgotten most of what I learned about him back in school, so I read up on Wikipedia. It's some crazy stuff. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions on his music?
Interesting article. I'll have to give him a listen.
In the meantime, Copeland should not be played by amateurs. That is all.
Okay, after this much time, this thread needs a bumpin'.
What are you listening to that's tickled your fancy recently?
I actually heard this piece a long time ago, although I didn't discover what it was until recently. But as a young child, I heard one fast, orchestral dance, which sounded operatic to me at the time. There was one line in particular which I could have sworn I had heard sung by a tenor at some point, although I guess I must have been mistaken.
Anyway, I recently found out that the piece is the Tarantella from the ballet La Boutique Fantasque, by Respighi. Interestingly enough, Respighi based the music of that ballet on some unpublished piano music written by Rossini in his later years. So my impression of that line sounding "operatic" might not have been too far off. Conceivably, Rossini might have been thinking the same thing, writing that line.
SCHUBERT.
LIEDER.
Maybe someone reading this thread can answer a question I've been wondering about for many years. I noticed that many of Bach's preludes, and many of his other pieces for that matter, are in a form with 2 repeated sections. The second section begins with a variation of the beginning of the first section, and develops it.
I'm sure I'm getting the terminology all wrong. Does anyone know if there's a name for this musical form?
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I love Rossini. There's nothing like bel canto.
I've recently discovered his William Tell, which is SO much more than the overture!
** spoiler omitted **
I just saw the Met broadcast of Armida last weekend, and it was fantastic. Nobody showcases what the human voice can do quite like Rossini.
Maybe someone reading this thread can answer a question I've been wondering about for many years. I noticed that many of Bach's preludes, and many of his other pieces for that matter, are in a form with 2 repeated sections. The second section begins with a variation of the beginning of the first section, and develops it.
I'm sure I'm getting the terminology all wrong. Does anyone know if there's a name for this musical form?
A lot of Baroque music is in ternary form, and that might be what you are referring to. It's sometimes thought of as A-B-A' (A' refers to a modified version of the material in the A section). The most famous examples of this are the "da capo" arias by composers like Handel, where there is a clearly contrasting middle section sandwiched in between the primary section and an embellished version of that primary material. ("Da capo" means "to the head/top" in Italian, and refers to the indication in music "Da capo al fine" or "D.C. al fine" which instructs musicians to go back to the beginning of a piece and play through the first section again.)
In Bach, the ternary form can be obscured a little bit, as his shorter pieces often have a more seemless feel to them, but that structure is often still there. In some of his more dance-inspired pieces (like the French Suites, for instance) this structure tends to be more readily apparent. He didn't use that form so much in his compositions that use imitative techniques (such as his fugues) since the form of those works is dictated by a continuous development of the subject, or main theme, of the music. (I also seem to recall that Bach has a few works pioneering binary form, which is the foundation of the Classical-era sonata form, although you'd probably have to look harder to find examples of this.)
Do you have a specific example? I could take a look at it and let you know.
LIEDER.
That is the worst dissertation ever.
In seriousness... I'm a fan of Winterreise and have sung most of it at some time or other. However, I tend to prefer the lieder of Schumann and Mendelssohn myself. Early Schubert, in particular, always feels kind of "clunky" to me and I often wish the phrases were longer.
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I had to look up the first 6 BWV numbers in a book at home.
I first discovered the form in six Preludes by Bach, BWV 933-938.
A more famous example would be the Badinerie that concludes Bach's Orchestral Suite number 2, BWV 1067.
I just thought about it this morning, when I was listening to Bach's Partita number 2 for solo violin, BWV 1004. In that Partita, the Allemande, Courante, and Giga / Gigue seem to have that form.
I know that it's not ternary form, because there's no "B" section. And if you tell me that this is an early version of Binary Form, I'll be surprised, because there's no recapitulation.
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Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I had to look up the first 6 BWV numbers in a book at home.
I first discovered the form in six Preludes by Bach, BWV 933-938.
A more famous example would be the Badinerie that concludes Bach's Orchestral Suite number 2, BWV 1067.
I just thought about it this morning, when I was listening to Bach's Partita number 2 for solo violin, BWV 1004. In that Partita, the Allemande, Courante, and Giga / Gigue seem to have that form.
I know that it's not ternary form, because there's no "B" section. And if you tell me that this is an early version of Binary Form, I'll be surprised, because there's no recapitulation.
Binary form doesn't need a recapitulation. I tend to think of it that way, too, because sonata form is binary, but really sonata form is a subset of binary form (so all sonata forms are binary, but not all binary forms are in sonata form). To be in binary form, a piece needs an A section that begins in one key and ends with a cadence in a related key (dominant if the piece is in a major key, relative major if the piece is in a minor key), and a B section that begins in the key in which the A section ended and ultimately resolves back to the tonic (this can be almost immediate, or after a lengthy development). In a lot of Baroque music in this form, there are repeats for both the A and B sections (so it is actually AABB), but not always. I often associate this form in my head with Domenico Scarlatti's keyboard works, but a little research reveals it appears in a number of Bach's suites as well.
That said, I’m a little out of my element with Baroque music, so I’ll take a look at some examples. I don’t think I have all of those specific pieces, but I could look at some similar ones (I know I have some books of keyboard suites and the like, and the same principles will tend to apply).
I never knew that. Thank you! You pretty well answered my question. I could check some of those examples, but even if they don't follow those rules of modulation, I'd still be satisfied. (In other words, you don't have to look at any examples, unless you really want to.)
Yep, you were right, Celestial Healer. It's funny. I listened to those six preludes for many years, and later went on to PLAY 3 of them, but I never paid much attention to the modulation before.
The BWV 933 is in C major, ends the A section in G major, begins the B section in G major, and ends in C.
934 is c minor to e flat, e flat (I think) to c minor.
935 is d minor to f, f to d minor.
936 is the first exception I noticed. It goes from d to a, but the B section seems (to me) to start in d major, and ends in that key too.
937 is e to b, b to e.
938 is the second exception. It goes from e minor to b, not to g. But then the b section goes from b to e minor.
Thanks to that website that Treppa mentioned, I looked at the Badinerie, and it goes from b minor to f-sharp, and from f-sharp to b-minor. That's an exception...
...but come to think of it, those last two examples modulate to the dominant, which is, according to you, the rule for major keys, so that's not completely off the wall.
I haven't had the time to look into the Partita, but I think I get the general idea. Thanks again!
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Tidbit for those who may not know: the name is pronounced Rafe Vaughan Williams.
Yes it's amazing how many people get that wrong. Its like the American pronunciation of Van Gogh. In America they say Van Go which is completely wrong. Even I find it difficult to pronouce because I'm not Dutch but its pronounced using the the back of the mouth someting in the way of van coch. A Dutch girlfriend years ago corrected me on that.
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What Saint-Saens? Did I miss that? Carneval? Bacchanal? Something like that?
Saint-Seans: Danse Macabre - Good RPG music.
Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, written in odd time 5:4,. makes it very unsettling, but brilliantly evokes the petitioner on Charon's boat travelling across the Styx to his final detination. Evokes the Dies Irae motif and the thrusts of the oars of inevitable one way movement.
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<binary forms>
Yeah, there are some options in the keys. Bach wrote so many pieces in that form, he probably welcomed the variety!
Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, written in odd time 5:4,. makes it very unsettling, but brilliantly evokes the petitioner on Charon's boat travelling across the Styx to his final detination. Evokes the Dies Irae motif and the thrusts of the oars of inevitable one way movement.
Rachmaninoff's use of the Dies Irae borders on the obsessive. In addition to the piece you mentioned, he squeezes it into his Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini and the scherzo of his Second Symphony, while his First Symphony uses it throughout. I've always found myself scratching my head about that.
Thanks for the Rach rec. True story: I was listening to it last night in the great room when I decided to turn in. I set the computer to hibernate and left, it was still playing as it took a while to change modes. Then, about 3 am last night, while my stepson was exercising in the room, it woke up and started playing again, scaring the s!%! out of him. Isle of the Dead, you are wonderful.
Once again, it's time for some bumping action.
On another thread, a certain user said - after I prodded him to do so - that his user name was partly in honor of a certain musical piece. I invited that user to check out this thread, but he didn't post to it. And in this thread, just a few posts ago, Marcus Aurelius mentioned that piece as well: the Danse Macabre by Camille Saint-Saëns. I was hoping someone would describe the piece, so I guess it's up to me.
I don't recall any other piece conveying its program so well to me as the Danse Macabre, not even The Sorcerer's Apprentice. (BTW, I'm no musicologist, and music often sounds different to me from the way it sounds to others, so my description below may often be wrong. Still, here's my impression.)
The piece is based on a poem in which Death plays his violin, (on Halloween night, I assume,) making skeletons rise from their graves and dance. The piece conveys this image of Death personified using a violin with its E-string tuned to E-flat, resulting in a twisted, perverted sound. Following the first use of the "Death's violin" theme, we hear another theme that represents a skeleton dancing. We then hear many instruments imitate the theme, conveying that more skeletons are dancing. And Death's fiddle plays on with a new theme, as well as a variation of the "twisted" line.
At one point, in what sounds to me like the beginning of a "development section" in Sonata form, the orchestra breaks into what sounds like a stretto in a fugue, as if the skeletons are dancing out of sync with each other. As the "development" goes on, the music gets more frenzied. Ironically, the only sanity check is when that "twisted" theme is developed by the orchestra. Even the timpani imitates that theme! How often do you hear a piece that does THAT?!?
And when the "recapitulation" begins, the orchestra gets REALLY polyphonic by playing Death's second theme and the skeleton's dance (or a more intense variation of it) at the same time. And just when it sounds like it's starting to wrap up, the piece changes its mind and gets wilder than ever...
...and then five simple notes sound, clearly conveying to the audience that a rooster is crowing, announcing the dawn.
The music winds down as the skeletons settle back into their graves, and Death plays one last, plaintive line as if reluctant to stop... and indeed, we hear a soft hint of the skeletons' dance, even as the piece wraps up to a conclusion.
When I first discovered that piece, I happened to be reading a certain DC superhero comic book, and I got this image of those superheroes fighting a villain I called Scordatura. In imitation of the Flash's enemy, the Fiddler, I pictured him playing a mistuned violin that magically animated dead bodies that fought the heroes.
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Good description, Aaron. One piece of trivia and then another observation. Did you know that Saint-Saens also wrote a song for voice and piano adapted from this music? I didn't until I heard it about a week ago. It's a different perspective if you're used to the orchestral version.
I think the most interesting part of Danse Macabre is actually the very beginning. Those opening violin intervals are meant to imitate the sound of a violin tuning up, as you would hear at the beginning of a concert. But, as you pointed out, the top string is E-flat instead of E. Normally, a violin is tuned in a series of perfect 5ths (G/D/A/E), which in Renaissance (and earlier) times was considered the purest of intervals. Playing E-flat instead of E instead results in a tritone (A/E-flat), which was the "devil's interval" in early music, and in medieval times was all but forbidden in sacred music. I think it's obvious what Saint-Saens is getting at there :)
(Another of my favorite uses of the tritone is the opening of Liszt's "Dante Fantasy", a musical depiction of the Inferno.)
Thanks for the descriptions, history, analysis, and theory info being posted here. Though I play, I know nothing about theory (but I'm reading a good book on it). These discussions help me learn what to listen for in new pieces. I'm grateful for the tuition!
No, Celestial Healer, I did not know most of those things. I find it hard to believe that a piano and voice could do the orchestral version justice.
Just this morning, while I was driving into work, listening to the radio, guess what piece was playing? Speak of the devil... But then, it was through the radio that I first discovered the piece.
And yeah, a lot of music theory mystifies me too, especially the science of harmony. I can play a simple tune by ear, or compose a simple ditty. But playing the harmony, or coming up with harmony for it, is a different matter. Oh sure, I can throw in simple chords like the tonic, dominant, subdominant, and dominant-seventh. (And even then, I'm sometimes fuzzy on whether a dominant or dominant-seventh is appropriate.) But even lesser composers modulate the harmony all over the place in ways that make me say "How do they do that?!?" Maybe I should read a book on it too.
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Two more works tickling my fancy of late:
Last night I was at a chamber music concert and heard Cesar Franck's Sonata for Violin and Piano in A minor. It was a favorite of mine in my college days (and figured prominently in my [horrible] senior thesis). I hadn't listened to it in a long time, and I find that sometimes hearing a live performance of a work that you are very familiar with can make it suddenly seem "new", as if you are hearing it again for the first time. It's such a well-crafted piece of music.
Earlier that same day, I was listening to the classical station in the car, and they played Shostakovich's 2nd Piano Concerto. It's another one that was an old favorite of mine that I had largely forgotten about. It's full of stunning contrasts, from a jaunty opening in the bassoons, to a thick, dramatic Romantic sound in the middle of the first movement, to a touching and melancholy 2nd movement, to a fun, dance-like finale. It's worth a listen for anybody interested in 20th century classical (and for those generally not interested in 20th century classical, it's really a very accessible work).