|
It's hardly a PF-exclusive thing. I hated the classification ever since 3.0 rolled around.
It always seemed to bring in more baggage than anything positive to me, in that their being outsiders tacked on a lot of bits that made them more difficult for players to sell wary GMs and groups on and because it seemed to color perceptions of both races, particularly with regards to how ingrained their alignments were.
Why not simply classify them as humanoids(extraplanar if need be)? After all, most of their make-up is mortal flesh and blood. They're not half-celestials/fiends, after all.
Just one of those things that always bugged me.
Full disclosure: My views on Aasimar and Tieflings are still mostly if not completely shaped by Planescape.
|
|
Well, in 3.5 there was a variant to make them a LA 0 race... Give them the Humanoid (Planetouched) type. I actually make this the norm in my games.
Where was this again? It sounds familiar but I can't recall offhand. I might need to run this by my GM, actually.
|
I do believe it was in the Player's Guide to Faerun, near the back of the book. It was meant to be applied to any planetouched, including Genasi, to facilitate using said races at 1st level. Now, I know that the aasimar and tiefling don't have an LA anymore, but I still prefer this option.
Oh, and they also turned the Aasimar's Daylight spell-like ability into the Light cantrip, once per day. No other changes to the Tiefling, though.
|
|
Ah, thanks! I'm still a-hunting a lot of the old 3.x FR stuff.
That sounds a bit like the approach taken in the Council of Thieves players guide(Infernal Bastard trait) as far as knocking out some of their spell-like abilities, though it goes the extra mile and changes the creature type too(which is where my baggage lies). Sounds like a better fit than what we were going to go with.
|
Yeah, Players Guide to Faerun p 190-191, has that for both the 'lesser' Aasimar and Tieflings, as well as the 'lesser' Genasi.
With the Humanoid (planetouched) type, they are affected by spells that affect either humanoids or outsiders (so both charm person and banishment would affect them), and do not gain the benefits of the Outsider type.
That section also has LA +0 'lesser' versions of Drow, Duergar and Svirfneblin, which is cool.
Using the Beastiary, with the boost PHB races got, you can use them w/o level adjustment.
They're find the way they are - as native outsiders.
Their alignment isn't ingrained. Even if the outsider type enforced an alignment, the native subtype gets rid of that.
And you really think that making them humanoids would mean that people are less prejudiced? Drow are humanoids - and they're basically always evil.
Doesn't have to be a creature type thing.
|
|
Their alignment isn't ingrained. Even if the outsider type enforced an alignment, the native subtype gets rid of that.And you really think that making them humanoids would mean that people are less prejudiced? Drow are humanoids - and they're basically always evil.
Oh no, this isn't about in-game fact or NPC/PC perceptions, it's about how they seem to players and GMs unfamiliar with them.
With the Humanoid (planetouched) type, they are affected by spells that affect either humanoids or outsiders (so both charm person and banishment would affect them)
Suddenly I'm not so certain I want to bring this possibility up with my GM anymore, depending on how banishment would work in this case. ;)
I was talking about player perception, too.
And the best thing to make people who are not familiar with things properly get them is to familiarise them.
I'm actually about to play a neutral aasimar in a Curse of the Crimson Throne game starting very soon. The same party also has a good tiefling in it.
The fun part is that my dm wanted to power us down slightly so he used the variant tiefling rules in the first part of Council of Thieves for both of us. I forget what the tiefling rolled, but my aasimar ended up with the ability to be healed by both positive and negative energy (would be kind of disappointing normally, but we actually happen to also have a negative energy cleric in the party) and no shadow.
It sounded silly at first and I kind of wanted to reroll for something I could re-flavor to sound more good aligned, but my dm believed in my ability to make it work somehow. I eventually had the idea that my celestial ancestor was actually a servant of Pharasma, which had these two effects on him/her that they also passed on to me.
Yes, they were Outsider (Native) so they can't be banished (well from the prime material plane) and they can be raised from the dead with magic and the like. It made them immune to a couple of situational spells but that's about all.
Yea, those situational spells said "Target: Humanoid"!
Actually, I do believe that it (the humanoid type) made them immune to banishment and such since they were no longer outsiders. Wait, I can't remember, but weren't native outsiders some special exception to Banishment as well?
Nah, banishment works, since it drives outsiders out of your home plane, irrespective of the outsider's home plane.
Dismissal doesn't work, on the other hand, since that sends the target creature back to their home plane, and native outsiders are at home on the material plane. Note that it works if they're, say, in Hell. But on the other hand, it would work on a human, too, since he'd be extraplanar in Hell.
But it's not really that big a deal really. Not being subject to hold person, dominate person, charm person, and so on, is a lot more beneficial.
Native takes away some immunities outsiders usually have (and they need to eat, drink and sleep), but it gives them some humanoid qualities (like being at home on the material plane, and having a soul).
|
|
Nah, banishment works, since it drives outsiders out of your home plane, irrespective of the outsider's home plane.
Dismissal doesn't work, on the other hand, since that sends the target creature back to their home plane, and native outsiders are at home on the material plane. Note that it works if they're, say, in Hell. But on the other hand, it would work on a human, too, since he'd be extraplanar in Hell.
The description of banishment on p. 246 says that it is a more powerful version of dismissal, so I would disagree with your first sentence -- aasimars, tieflings, suli-jann, etc. cannot be banished or dismissed (on their home plane) any more than humans or elves can.
Off their home plane, the rules change...for everybody.
But it's not really that big a deal really. Not being subject to hold person, dominate person, charm person, and so on, is a lot more beneficial.
Of course, they're equally immune to the "person" buffs, which frankly more than balances it out. You can always save against the offensive spells; not even being able to be targeted by the buffing spells is a big penalty.
Both spells don't even mention Outsiders at all. It just says "extraplanar creatures". Since a native outsider isn't extraplanar (they are native to the Material plane), they would be unaffected by either spell... while on the Material plane. Just like any humanoid.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
But it's not really that big a deal really. Not being subject to hold person, dominate person, charm person, and so on, is a lot more beneficial.Of course, they're equally immune to the "person" buffs, which frankly more than balances it out. You can always save against the offensive spells; not even being able to be targeted by the buffing spells is a big penalty.
Yes, and keep in mind that while there are Hold Monster, Daze Monster and Dominate Monster spells, etc, there are no spells like Enlarge Monster.
It's not just a matter of "needing a higher level spell slot" to affect them... it's literally no longer an option.
|
|
Of course, they're equally immune to the "person" buffs, which frankly more than balances it out. You can always save against the offensive spells; not even being able to be targeted by the buffing spells is a big penalty.
The only "buff" spell that specifies a humanoid target is enlarge person (+ mass enlarge person).
So bull's strength, haste, etc. are okay to cast on outsiders.
The description of banishment on p. 246 says that it is a more powerful version of dismissal, so I would disagree with your first sentence -- aasimars, tieflings, suli-jann, etc. cannot be banished or dismissed (on their home plane) any more than humans or elves can.
You're right. Both refer to extraplanar creatures, and planetouched aren't extraplanar on the material plane, so this isn't a problem for planetouched.
Sure there's hold monster, but it's a couple of spell levels higher than hold person (same for all the other person/monster spell couples), so you'll be save for quite some time while your humanoid buddies (and enemies) are in danger of being possessed by some bloody nerd in jammies wearing a pointy hat.
I'm not bugged at all by this. Actually, I like this.
Don't 1/2 elves count as elves, and 1/2 orcs count as orcs? IMO, 1/2 outsiders should count as outsiders.
If your DM doesn't like them, then that may be either his/her personal preference, or there may be some story-related reason he/she doesn't want you to use them.
I'm not bugged at all by this. Actually, I like this.
Don't 1/2 elves count as elves, and 1/2 orcs count as orcs? IMO, 1/2 outsiders should count as outsiders.
If your DM doesn't like them, then that may be either his/her personal preference, or there may be some story-related reason he/she doesn't want you to use them.
Aasimar and Tieflings are not 1/2 outsiders. Those are half-celestials and half-fiends. Aasimar and Tieflings are several generations removed from their planar heritage or have no actual outsider heritage at all (for example, they were blessed by a deity on birth, or were born near a site of intense negative emotional energy).
|
Yea, those situational spells said "Target: Humanoid"!
Yeah, but it's like hold/charm person or daze. Not exactly huge spells that your BBEG's tend to cast on the party, plus most spell casters if they can recognize them as outsiders won't waste the spell.
Not exactly game breaking. They can still be magic missiled and scorching rayed and enfeebled and level drained and on and on.