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Ok, taking the ideas and feed back from the other thread into account. Basically I gave them a small amount of health that refreshes each round if the minion survives. This removes the need for keeping track of which minion have been injured across multiple rounds of combat.
Minion Template(CR-4)
Minions are weaker creatures made strong by the presence of a leader they fear or believe in. This template can be added to any creature that is capable of receiving morale bonuses.
Alignment: Any
Type: Creature's types does not change
Hit Points: The creatures hit points change as follows
Each d6 HD the base creature has the minion will have 1 hp. d8 HD gives 1.5 hp, d10 HD gives 2 hp, and d12 HD gives 2.5 hp. Add the creatures con modifier to this amount.
Attacks: Minions do not gain iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus.
Defenses/Qualities: Minions gain fast healing equal to their hit points. This healing goes away if the creature becomes staggered or dying, or if there are no non-minions around to lead them. Minions becomes shaken if there are no non-minions around to lead them.
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I can see the effects of this, but I don't see the actual purpose. I'm assuming your trying to emulate the 4th Ed Minion concept, of minor "cannon-fodder" foes that swarm around the bad guy and can actually be threats to the PCs health, but go down easily.
A while back I posted a similar template/concept. In the odd event it's any use to you, I'll repeat the basic idea.
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Template-Fanatic
This template can be added to any creature with an intel score. Additionally, the creature must have another creature in which to place its loyalty, which must be capable of being interacted with directly (no Dieties, but a high priest is just fine). A fanatic creature can not have more than 1/2 the HD of it's Leader.
The creature gains a morale bonus on Attack rolls equal to the HD of it's Leader. It gains a morale bonus on Damage rolls equal to 1/2 the HD of it's Leader.
The creature gains a morale bonus on Will Saves equal to half the HD of it's Leader.
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So with this, you could have say, 5 fanatic goblins serving a hobgoblin cleric. If the cleric is level 8, the goblins would all have +8 to hit, +4 to damage, and +4 to will saves. If there was a 5th level goblin in the group, he wouldn't receive the bonuses due to his HD being too high. (Think of that as the idea that he is trusted with the secrets that the lower members aren't, so while he is loyal to the cause, he isn't as driven by blind faith.)
The Black Bard, I love it! Well thought out and well reasoned, with very simple mechanics. What's next?
Did evasion go away?
Did evasion go away?
Yeah, I replaced it with the low health + fast healing idea. Basically, they have a small amount of health, and if you don't drop them in one round, they heal to full.
Did evasion go away?Yeah, I replaced it with the low health + fast healing idea. Basically, they have a small amount of health, and if you don't drop them in one round, they heal to full.
Oh. But would a fireball just drop them all anyway?
By the OP template, a Tyrannosaurus Minion would have the following stats:
Tyrannosaurus Minion - CR 5
Animal [Minion]
HD 18 (+3 Con Bonus)
HP 99 (18 x 1.5 = 27 + 72 con bonus)
Defenses: Fast Healing 99
You show me a 5th level party equal to THIS task.
If you meant "add con modifier once" then the HP/Fast healing drops down to 31. That's closer to possible for a 5th level party that focuses all its efforts against the minion, but if they mess up the burst damage then the minion is unscathed.
I think the point of minions was to reduce combat slog, and to drastically reduce the amount of paperwork and record keeping that the DM has to do. That said, the ease with which minions can be killed doesn't really negate the fact that they have almost 100% of the base creature's offensive capabilities. I'm not sure -4 CR adjustment is right... maybe -2.
To reduce record keeping I'd say something like this would fit well for the minion template:
Initiative: Minions do not roll for initiative. Their initiative is equal to their initiative bonus.
Hit Points: 2 per HD then add constitution bonus (once)
Attacks: Minions may only make one attack per round at their highest attack bonus.
SQ: Short Lived, Immunities
Short Lived - Minions that suffer an injury that does not deal enough to kill the minion in a single blow are considered "Injured". An injured minion that is again struck for damage of any amount is instantly slain.
Immunities - Minions are immune to any condition that does not cause hit point damage and is not caused by inclusion in an ongoing zone of effect (ie, a zone that provides -2 to hit is ok, a spell that gives creatures in a burst -2 to hit they are immune to).
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Thus, a hit that is enough to kill a minion kills them. Two smaller hits kills a minion. Nothing that requires record keeping affects the minion beyond the injured condition which can be tracked by miniature facing. Start all minions facing north, and turn each south to denote injured status. Voila... 0 extra record keeping, but minions are not invulnerable at higher hit dice.
The full hp fast healing still requires record keeping for each creature as the minion's hit points need to be tracked for a full round any time they take any damage. Likewise, you end up with especially dangerous minions in situations where you have, say, a fighter vs. a high hit dice minion in a solo combat.
@Voodoo Mike:
This shouldn't really be treated as a normal CR adjustment, because it maintains saves and attack bonuses.
It's more so intended to be used on a creature that was within 2 CRs either side of the party.
NOTE: I think minion damage should be decreased, not attack or saves, but damage as stopping iteritave attacks is pointless for the vast number of creatures who use natural attacks. 1/4 average damage would be pretty solid. And CR relevant.
Oh. But would a fireball just drop them all anyway?Did evasion go away?Yeah, I replaced it with the low health + fast healing idea. Basically, they have a small amount of health, and if you don't drop them in one round, they heal to full.
It depends on a lot of variables.
Level 5 wizard casting fireball on a bunch of level 5 minions. Average damage is 17.5, half damage is 8.75.
Lets say all minions have a con of 12.
Level 5 fighter minions -> 11 hp, if they save, they are at 3hp, for the rest of the round, if they fail, they are down.
Level 5 rogue minions -> 8 hp, if they save, they take no damage via evasion. If they fail, they are down.
That is with average damage. If the wizard gets lucky on the damage roll, he will drop the fighters even if they make their saves. If the wizard rolls poorly, the fighters are safe even if they fail their saves. If the wizard was a level or 2 higher, they extra dice in damage would matter, because it does not come down to just the minions making their save or not.
By the OP template, a Tyrannosaurus Minion would have the following stats:
Tyrannosaurus Minion - CR 5
Animal [Minion]
HD 18 (+3 Con Bonus)
HP 99 (18 x 1.5 = 27 + 72 con bonus)
Defenses: Fast Healing 99You show me a 5th level party equal to THIS task.
If you meant "add con modifier once" then the HP/Fast healing drops down to 31. That's closer to possible for a 5th level party that focuses all its efforts against the minion, but if they mess up the burst damage then the minion is unscathed.
I think the point of minions was to reduce combat slog, and to drastically reduce the amount of paperwork and record keeping that the DM has to do. That said, the ease with which minions can be killed doesn't really negate the fact that they have almost 100% of the base creature's offensive capabilities. I'm not sure -4 CR adjustment is right... maybe -2.
To reduce record keeping I'd say something like this would fit well for the minion template:
Initiative: Minions do not roll for initiative. Their initiative is equal to their initiative bonus.
Hit Points: 2 per HD then add constitution bonus (once)
Attacks: Minions may only make one attack per round at their highest attack bonus.
SQ: Short Lived, Immunities
Short Lived - Minions that suffer an injury that does not deal enough to kill the minion in a single blow are considered "Injured". An injured minion that is again struck for damage of any amount is instantly slain.
Immunities - Minions are immune to any condition that does not cause hit point damage and is not caused by inclusion in an ongoing zone of effect (ie, a zone that provides -2 to hit is ok, a spell that gives creatures in a burst -2 to hit they are immune to).
---
Thus, a hit that is enough to kill a minion kills them. Two smaller hits kills a minion. Nothing that requires record keeping affects the minion beyond the injured condition which can be tracked by miniature facing. Start all minions facing north, and turn each south to denote injured status....
Yes, the con bonus only gets added once, not per hit dice.
HP should be 18 * 1.5 + 4(Con modifier) = 31hp with fast healing 31.
Also, if you encountered the minion alone, then he would be shaken for an automatic -2 to all rolls.
I am playing a cleric of gorum who wields a greatsword. I fight alongside a a barbarian. I hit a 21 AC on an 8+ with power attack up. Our barbarian hits on a 5+ with rage up. With power attack, I hit for about 20-30 damage in a single hit. The barbarian rarely does less than 15 damage a hit. Just the 2 of us would most likely drop this minion is a single round.
I would say a Minion doesn't fit anywhere outside 4E given their design and use is pretty steeply entrenched in the very basics of the unique parts of 4E design.
I would say a Minion doesn't fit anywhere outside 4E given their design and use is pretty steeply entrenched in the very basics of the unique parts of 4E design.
I disagree. In old 1E AD&D adventures, there would occasionally be monsters with really low hit points in an encounter of multiple creatures (as well as some with really high hit points). So you would have potentially dangerous enemies who dropped like flies from the very early days.
3e's lazy average hp model and high Cons largely ended the practice save by throwing really weak opponents at the PCs. One of the few elements of 4e I like is the return of the potentially weak opponent (I think they do it poorly, but the idea was nice). Since the 3e/PF monster stats are really baseline averages, it's easy enough to tinker via a template and make a version of a creature that appears tough but has a glass jaw. And I think this is a good thing for combat pacing. It makes it a lot easier to back the BBEG up with minions to soak up PC actions, balancing out the action economy, while not overwhelming them.
Minion Template(CR-4)
Minions are weaker creatures made strong by the presence of a leader they fear or believe in. This template can be added to any creature that is capable of receiving morale bonuses.<snip>
Hit Points: The creatures hit points change as follows
Each d6 HD the base creature has the minion will have 1 hp. d8 HD gives 1.5 hp, d10 HD gives 2 hp, and d12 HD gives 2.5 hp. Add the creatures con modifier to this amount.Attacks: Minions do not gain iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus.
Defenses/Qualities: Minions gain fast healing equal to their hit points. This healing goes away if the creature becomes staggered or dying, or if there are no non-minions around to lead them. Minions becomes shaken if there are no non-minions around to lead them.
I've been playing about with minions in my game too. I think it would be important to still track the original CR of the creature rather than adjust it. I'd just add a notation that the XP should be halved or quartered but that the creature was still designed to be a weak CR9 rather than a true CR5.
I personally am not fond of the fast healing idea. Imagine a fight with some minions in which a weaker melee-character like a rogue or bard ends up trying to hold off a creature that happens to be a minion while more powerful damage-dealers are shoring up party defenses from another direction. That minion will probably never go down.
The way I've been doing minions is just pegging the hp at 1/die, dropping the main offense stat 4 or so, dropping the Con by 4 or more so that the Con bonus goes down, and leaving it at that. The T-rex won't collapse immediately, but at 54 hp is a lot easier to take down.
I'm not certain a T-rex is the best showcase for making a minion, though, being top predator and all. He doesn't exactly strike me as minion material. Creatures where there may be rank-and-file sorts of organizations fit better. Make a hill giant as a minion and end up with 30 hp - easy for the fighter to take down, pretty easy for the fireball to mop up, and not out of reach of the bard or rogue desperately trying to fill a gap in the party lines.
I disagree. In old 1E AD&D adventures,
I'm glad we got to my least favorite aspect of Pathfinder on the first page.
It makes it a lot easier to back the BBEG up with minions to soak up PC actions, balancing out the action economy, while not overwhelming them.
Which are what now? Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, and whatever other 1/3-1/4 CR races? That isn't the same as the 4E minion.
The Minion is based in the monster design that separate monsters by category of bad assery, and then they have other unique rules based relative to 4E design.You want 4E Minions? Ok. Take any 1/3-1/4 CR monster, up its level to whatever you want by increasing HD, give it minimum hit points, Evasion, and Mettle. There you go.
I disagree. In old 1E AD&D adventures,I'm glad we got to my least favorite aspect of Pathfinder on the first page.
It makes it a lot easier to back the BBEG up with minions to soak up PC actions, balancing out the action economy, while not overwhelming them.
Which are what now? Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, and whatever other 1/3-1/4 CR races? That isn't the same as the 4E minion.
The Minion is based in the monster design that separate monsters by category of bad assery, and then they have other unique rules based relative to 4E design.You want 4E Minions? Ok. Take any 1/3-1/4 CR monster, up its level to whatever you want by increasing HD, give it minimum hit points, Evasion, and Mettle. There you go.
Except that doesn't give you what I want. You still have a lot of models on the table you have to keep track of health and conditions for. Keeping track of health is not that hard when you have a few bad guys on the table, but try running a level 10 encounter with 15 bad guys on the table. You have 1 or 2 nasties, and 12+ guys there to soak the PCs time and energy. Keeping track of 12+ bad guys with 20-30 health each as they get hit with all kinds of spells and attacks while moving is a huge pain in the rear. Worse If I make them CR appropiate Those 12 guys would have to be like level 3-5, which means they would be almost no threat to the PCs. Minions don't works when the PCs can just waltz right past them.
Then make them 1 hp like they are in 4E, regardless of level. If you don't like that or the minimum hp version, then you should drop the entire idea.
I've been playing about with minions in my game too. I think it would be important to still track the original CR of the creature rather than adjust it. I'd just add a notation that the XP should be halved or quartered but that the creature was still designed to be a weak CR9 rather than a true CR5.
4 monsters of the same type adds +4 to the CR of the encounter, so 4 level 5 fighter minions = 1 normal level 5 fighter. That is how adding CR together works. If you want to keep it simple, then just always use minions in groups of 4. The CR-4 is simply to reflect the CR of an individual minion.
I personally am not fond of the fast healing idea. Imagine a fight with some minions in which a weaker melee-character like a rogue or bard ends up trying to hold off a creature that happens to be a minion while more powerful damage-dealers are shoring up party defenses from another direction. That minion will probably never go down.
I actually like that. PCs that don't work together or don't focus on targets will actually find minions to be very challenging.
The way I've been doing minions is just pegging the hp at 1/die, dropping the main offense stat 4 or so, dropping the Con by 4 or more so that the Con bonus goes down, and leaving it at that. The T-rex won't collapse immediately, but at 54 hp is a lot easier to take down.I'm not certain a T-rex is the best showcase for making a minion, though, being top predator and all. He doesn't exactly strike me as minion material. Creatures where there may be rank-and-file sorts of organizations fit better. Make a hill giant as a minion and end up with 30 hp - easy for the fighter to take down, pretty easy for the fireball to mop up, and not out of reach of the bard or rogue desperately trying to fill a gap in the party lines.
Yes, the point of minions is to be a soak targets for other bad guys. You should never face a single minions along unless you corner them away from their friends.
That said, the T-rex is a good test for testing to see if the minion template is balanced or not.
Then make them 1 hp like they are in 4E, regardless of level. If you don't like that or the minimum hp version, then you should drop the entire idea.
As was discussed in the other thread, having 1 hp has all sorts of wierd side effects when you are interacting with spells like power words. PW:Kill will kill 120 minions of any level with no save.
No one is forcing you to use my minion templates. I have told you why I don't like either of your options. I like this better. If you can see a balance or rules problem with it, I would like to hear it, but if you want to toss it because you hate the idea of minions, then don't use it.
I don't have any problem with the minion, but I think it's a very particular CR adjustment, and needs extra to use notes.
I.E. it works best for base creatures 2-4 CRs lower than the characters, and is not neccesacarily good for spellcaster foes, and is intended to produce 8+ odd foes to make combat big.
I also think their needs to be a way to average their attacks. Rolling loads of attacks can be more consuming than keeping track of hp, and iterative attacks onyl really works for PC class foes.
e.g. I made a lamia minion, and it lost 1 iterative attack, but still had 4 around, including a wisdom drain!
That's alot of damage for a CR2 creature.
While if you 1/4 all damage, its a few little attacks.
Maybe a have them make a conjoined attack that does 1/4 total average damage, and the attack bonus be BA+Str/Dex-2? That way its still in range, and will hit, but not totally overwhelm your PCs when 4 of them land. Makes minions trouble, but not impossibly deadly in numbers.
I don't have any problem with the minion, but I think it's a very particular CR adjustment, and needs extra to use notes.
I.E. it works best for base creatures 2-4 CRs lower than the characters, and is not neccesacarily good for spellcaster foes, and is intended to produce 8+ odd foes to make combat big.
I also think their needs to be a way to average their attacks. Rolling loads of attacks can be more consuming than keeping track of hp, and iterative attacks onyl really works for PC class foes.
e.g. I made a lamia minion, and it lost 1 iterative attack, but still had 4 around, including a wisdom drain!
That's alot of damage for a CR2 creature.
While if you 1/4 all damage, its a few little attacks.
Maybe a have them make a conjoined attack that does 1/4 total average damage, and the attack bonus be BA+Str/Dex-2? That way its still in range, and will hit, but not totally overwhelm your PCs when 4 of them land. Makes minions trouble, but not impossibly deadly in numbers.
I left natural attacks untouched because I am really only worried about iterative attacks on ranged attackers. Just about any melee based PC should be able to drop an appropiate level minion in 1 round by themselves. I don't see melee minions getting in too many full round attacks unless the PC do something stupid.
I was thinking about the spell caster thing, and you get a similar problem to archer minions. Probably should have all casters minion be at -2 caster level and -2 DC or just no allow caster minions.
That sounds pretty good.
Then make them 1 hp like they are in 4E, regardless of level. If you don't like that or the minimum hp version, then you should drop the entire idea.
As was discussed in the other thread, having 1 hp has all sorts of wierd side effects when you are interacting with spells like power words. PW:Kill will kill 120 minions of any level with no save.
No one is forcing you to use my minion templates. I have told you why I don't like either of your options. I like this better. If you can see a balance or rules problem with it, I would like to hear it, but if you want to toss it because you hate the idea of minions, then don't use it.
I don't hate the idea of minions. I hate the idea of pointlessly shoe-horning them into one system because they seemed cool in another system that worked entirely differently.
And I didn't say give them 1 HD, I said give them 1 HP. Different thing entirely.You want minions but you don't want minions. It's rather confusing.
Your template doesn't make sense from both your own statements and just in general. You already stated you don't want to keep up with HP, which is why you turned down my "minimum HP" thing, but you want to increase their HP 1 or more points per HD? That makes no sense. Then there is the fast healing thing. You still have to keep up with hit points if there is more than one person fighting.
The point of 4e Minion was if they get hit, they go down. End. The only way to directly translate this is to give them 1 HP, Evasion, and Mettle.
And for your PW: Kill complaint, it doesn't work like that. You must be thinking of a different spell. And even then? So what? They die. That's the point. What do you think a Widened Fireball is going to do?
That sounds pretty good.
I was actually thinking about a minion based encounter with something fairly nasty. I probably need to sit down and actually stat it out.
BBEG Vampire with several vampire minions. The minions are just a bunch of commoners that the BBEG has turned and controls, so while they are dangerous, they were not experienced combatants before they become vampires. The vampire minions would have all of the vampire abilities, but would be much easier to force into gaseous form.
Yeah, I've been statting out a few creatures, and I think this is a template for very specific circumstances. Lest it make the math go wonky. It seems to work best on creatures already a CR or 2 lower than the PCs, but is pointless on anything more than say 4-5 lower. In that range its pretty nice.
And damage capability still worries me. I don't think a minion group should be easily able to take down PCs, but if they go before them in melee and 4x damage it can get deadly.
Then make them 1 hp like they are in 4E, regardless of level. If you don't like that or the minimum hp version, then you should drop the entire idea.
As was discussed in the other thread, having 1 hp has all sorts of wierd side effects when you are interacting with spells like power words. PW:Kill will kill 120 minions of any level with no save.
No one is forcing you to use my minion templates. I have told you why I don't like either of your options. I like this better. If you can see a balance or rules problem with it, I would like to hear it, but if you want to toss it because you hate the idea of minions, then don't use it.
I don't hate the idea of minions. I hate the idea of pointlessly shoe-horning them into one system because they seemed cool in another system that worked entirely differently.
And I didn't say give them 1 HD, I said give them 1 HP. Different thing entirely.
I am talking about 1 hp as well. This was discussed in the original thread, 1 hp doesn't work in PF.
I like the concept of minions, but 4th ed is a completely different system from PF. PF has a lot more AoE damage, that makes it a lot easier to kill a bunch of creatures with 1hp. A 9th level magic missle will kill 5 minions per cast, no save.
What you call shoehorning, I call adapting. I want the concept, but it has to be adapted to the PF/3.5 system. You attitude that it must be done a certain way or not done at all is not very helpful in creating a colaborative adaptation of minions to PF.
You want minions but you don't want minions. It's rather confusing.
Your template doesn't make sense from both your own statements and just in general. You already stated you don't want to keep up with HP, which is why you turned down my "minimum HP" thing, but you want to increase their HP 1 or more points per HD? That makes no sense. Then there is the fast healing thing. You still have to keep up with hit points if there is more than one person fighting.
I don't want to have to keep track of damage from one round to the next. Either the minion dies during a given round or they don't and they heal back to full.
The point of 4e Minion was if they get hit, they go down. End. The only way to directly translate this is to give them 1 HP, Evasion, and Mettle.And for your PW: Kill complaint, it doesn't work like that. You must be thinking of a different spell. And even then? So what? They die. That's the point. What do you think a Widened Fireball is going to do?
PW: Kill was something someone else mentioned in the original thread, they must have been thinking of a previous version of the spell, I didn't bother to double check them, because their magic missle complaint was valid.
As pointed out earlier, a fireball is going to depend on the caster and how well the caster rolls and whether or not the minions make their save. The minions may die, they may get softened up for someone else to take out, or they may survive the round and heal back to full.
This biggest problem with minions is meta-gaming, so that is why some may shy away from 1hp, but even a fraction of CR, may make it easy to determine one. In the same sense, removing special abilities or restricting attacks may do the same thing. And finally, at the end of the day, just including lower level mobs to the encounter may do the same thing.
Therefore, the distinciton is the ease of book keeping, while keeping the meta-gaming features to a minimum.
Whatever that balance is in 3.5 or pathfinder is up for discussion, as the current model in 4E does not work well from a meta-gaming standpoint, i.e. static hp, static damage, basic abilities and/or powers.
This biggest problem with minions is meta-gaming, so that is why some may shy away from 1hp, but even a fraction of CR, may make it easy to determine one. In the same sense, removing special abilities or restricting attacks may do the same thing. And finally, at the end of the day, just including lower level mobs to the encounter may do the same thing.
Therefore, the distinciton is the ease of book keeping, while keeping the meta-gaming features to a minimum.
Whatever that balance is in 3.5 or pathfinder is up for discussion, as the current model in 4E does not work well from a meta-gaming standpoint, i.e. static hp, static damage, basic abilities and/or powers.
Metagaming was another reason I like the low health, but heal to full model. A minion that catches a few light hits each round can actually soak a lot of damage because they are healing to full each round. this makes it really hard for the players to realize that it is a minion.
If you play the melee minions as hit and run characters, and keep them all spread out. Let a player move in and get a full round attack. Remove the minion, but don't let then know which attack actually killed the minion.
You want minions but you don't want minions. It's rather confusing.
I prefer to look at it as wanting minions but not wanting the 4e implementation of minions (which isn't the only one out there in game rules).
I am talking about 1 hp as well. This was discussed in the original thread, 1 hp doesn't work in PF.I like the concept of minions, but 4th ed is a completely different system from PF. PF has a lot more AoE damage, that makes it a lot easier to kill a bunch of creatures with 1hp.
4E has plenty of AoE damage from the same exact places it exists in PF. The only difference is how combat and defense works.
A 9th level magic missle will kill 5 minions per cast, no save.
Then that is a point against trying to shoe horn minions into a system completely different than the system they were designed around.
What you call shoehorning, I call adapting.
But adapting minions requires a shoe horn.
The main points of a minion in 4E are they ALWAYS have 1 HP and they don't take half damage on a miss. The are designed completely around the unique attack vs defense system of 4E that doesn't exist in previous D&D or, subsequently, Pathfinder. You can mimic it by giving them Evasion and Mettle, but you can't replace it entirely. Such as your example of Magic Missile. Magic Missile exists in 4E, but it is an attack not a magical damage generation system. Trying to translate the feel of Minions from 4E to PF/3.X isn't going to work terribly. Why not settle with appropriately leveled mooks and call them minions? Because you don't want to have to do the book keeping. The problem is all these factors can't coexist. Either they are glass or they arn't.I want the concept, but it has to be adapted to the PF/3.5 system.
Sure the concept is nice, but you are also trying to include the feel of the 4E minion which is impossible to do because the combat systems are so different.
I don't want to have to keep track of damage from one round to the next. Either the minion dies during a given round or they don't and they heal back to full.
What if three people attack it and it is the third that kills it? That's entirely possible and you are therefore having to do math before it gets back to its magical "full health" turn to make sure the minion is dead or not.
And finally, at the end of the day, just including lower level mobs to the encounter may do the same thing.
Actually, at a ceratin stage I don't think this is true, as lower level creautures can't possibly hit the PCs, while this minion template keeps their attack bonuses so they will actually be some threat. My worry is that unless they do half-damage or something else, they may be too deadly if they go first.
What do you think a Widened Fireball is going to do?
Net enough minion T-rexes to feed my entire tribe for many moons.
What do you think a Widened Fireball is going to do?Net enough minion T-rexes to feed my entire tribe for many moons.
And pre-cook them.
stuff
You are confusing the implementation of minions in 4th ed with the intent.
The intent of minions in 4th ed is to create a creature that you can throw 4 of at the players in the place of 1 creature of the appropiate CR. This makes encounters feel larger and more epic without them actually being any deadlier.
The implementation of minions in 4th ed uses 1 hp, etc.
I am looking at a completely different implementation of minions that is designed for pathfinder. My requirements are:
- Must be able to threaten a player who is 3-5CR higher than the minion so that the player does not have the option of simply ignoring the minion.
- Must not be too threatening. 4 minions that are 3-5CR lower than a party alone should not be a life and death struggle for the party.
- Must have minimal book keeping requirements. I don't want to have to keep track of how much damage it took for each round for the last 5 rounds.
- Must not be too easy to kill. An average fireball should kill all of that fail their saves, but a magic missle from a level 9 wizard should be be able to drop 5 minions.
This template fulfills those requirements. If you don't like me calling it a minion, then you can rename the template to whatever you want.
- Must not be too easy to kill. An average fireball should kill all of that fail their saves, but a magic missle from a level 9 wizard should be be able to drop 5 minions.
Here is the problem that becomes glaring when trying to implement something from 4E in previous editions. Nothing auto-hits in 4E but there are tons of things that do in previous editions.
It may be possible to fix it by adding SR, but there is still the inherent clash of design
- Must not be too easy to kill. An average fireball should kill all of that fail their saves, but a magic missle from a level 9 wizard should be be able to drop 5 minions.Here is the problem that becomes glaring when trying to implement something from 4E in previous editions. Nothing auto-hits in 4E but there are tons of things that do in previous editions.
It may be possible to fix it by adding SR, but there is still the inherent clash of design
And that is where the idea of the minion dies in 1 hit, but what constitutes a hit changes based on the CR of the minion came from.
Then came the problem of trying to avoid screwing over two weapon fighters, druids, and any other class that uses lots of light attacks to drop foes. Since they would be unable to generate strong enough hits to drop a minion, but they could drop a minion in 2 or 3 hits. Hence after discussion we settled on minions having greatly reduced HP instead on only having 1 HP.
I later added the fast healing to eliminate the need to keep track of minion health from one round to the next.
Then came the problem of trying to avoid screwing over two weapon fighters, druids, and any other class that uses lots of light attacks to drop foes. Since they would be unable to generate strong enough hits to drop a minion, but they could drop a minion in 2 or 3 hits. Hence after discussion we settled on minions having greatly reduced HP instead on only having 1 HP.
....what?
I played in a 4e game where the DM used a variant of minions where each hit had a 50% chance to drop them. If you wanted to keep minions at 1HP, but prevent magic missile-slaughter, you could do a similar thing. For "harder" minions, you could set the chance of killing them even lower. You could also go a little more complex and set the chance of killing them based on how much damage they did.
As far as damage goes, I think a fixed amount of damage on a single attack is the way to go. Multiple attacks or rolling for damage means more work, which is part of the point of using minions in the first place.
....what?
I think he's saying something like:
Bubba the druid in panther form hits with X number of Really-Sharp-Papercuts per round. If the minion only has one hp and drops on the first hit, Bubba won't feel like he's getting a good workout. On the other hand, if the minion's hp are just a tad too high, then Bubba might not drop more than one minion a round (if that many), even when using Super-Kitty-Whirlwind-Papercut-Tornado... which is bad, since the minions that don't get dropped are at full health the next round.
I think...
Then came the problem of trying to avoid screwing over two weapon fighters, druids, and any other class that uses lots of light attacks to drop foes. Since they would be unable to generate strong enough hits to drop a minion, but they could drop a minion in 2 or 3 hits. Hence after discussion we settled on minions having greatly reduced HP instead on only having 1 HP.....what?
Notice this is version 2.0. The discussion of version 1.0 is
hereMost of the things you are bringing up were talked about there.
I played in a 4e game where the DM used a variant of minions where each hit had a 50% chance to drop them. If you wanted to keep minions at 1HP, but prevent magic missile-slaughter, you could do a similar thing. For "harder" minions, you could set the chance of killing them even lower. You could also go a little more complex and set the chance of killing them based on how much damage they did.
As far as damage goes, I think a fixed amount of damage on a single attack is the way to go. Multiple attacks or rolling for damage means more work, which is part of the point of using minions in the first place.
I am probably the culprit with the Magic Missile/Power Word:Kill thing. Especially the "not checking the way the spell works in this edition" screw-up ^___^
I like the template. It mechanically fits the purpose, and limits the bookeeping to stuff to only 1 round. I would only suggest that minions do minimum damage. They can hit, but not very hard. And the damage is static, so no rolling. It makes combat go faster. Yeah, metagame, but they need to kill these guys anyway.
I would also suggest that minions cannot use feats like Power Attack, and do not gain the bonuses from abilities like Improved Grab. Basically, reduce the CMB for any special attack by 4.
The problem with minions doing fixed damage is that it makes it easier for players to metagame that they are minions.
I meant to add in that they cannot crit. I knew I missed something. that eliminates rolling to confirm crits.
I don't know about the CMB thing and feat restrictions. I like the idea of a bunch of minions grappling a character, then another character charging in and mowing them all down.
I don't know about the CMB thing and feat restrictions. I like the idea of a bunch of minions grappling a character, then another character charging in and mowing them all down.Well, it's not like they CAN'T do it. In fact, it may REQUIRE a bunch on minions to pin a character (Aid Another). They just shouldn't be as good as the boss, and it reduces their value in stopping PC's through non-damage means.
Yeah, I just don't want to end up with a long list of feats that minions cant use.
I think things like power attack and deadly aim are balance by the fact that minions cannot crit or make multiple attack as easy as normal NPCs.
I statted up some minions today, and there are numerous problems I didn't even think off, damage is still a huge problem, as is treasure. A minion still has the equipment and treasure of something of it's original CR, so using minions gives treasure 4x faster than normal. Their CMB/CMD stay as high, so a few together are overwhelming, and fast-healing can be wonky.
Example
MINOTAUR MINION CR 1/2
XP 200
CE Large monstrous humanoid
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 9, flat-footed 14 (+5 natural, –1 size)
hp 14 (6d10+2)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5
Defensive Abilities fast healing 14, natural cunning
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee greataxe +9 (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 (1d6+4)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks powerful charge (gore +11, 2d6+6)
STATISTICS
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 21
Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Skills Intimidate +5, Perception +10, Stealth +2, Survival +10; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival
Languages Giant
Gear greataxe, treasure
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Minion (Ex) A minion’s fast healing goes away if the creature becomes staggered or dying, or if there are no non-minions around to lead them. Minions becomes shaken if there are no non-minions around to lead them.
Natural Cunning (Ex) Although minotaurs are not
especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and
logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells and prevents them from ever becoming lost. Further, they are never caught flat-footed.
I'm not sure I have a solution for the hp trackinh problem, but I do propose a simple template:
Minion
CR This template is intended only for creature of 4-6 CRs lower than the parties level, it is not reccomended for use against large parties. It does not change CR or XP granted.
Offense The creatures attack bonuses are increased by four.
Defense The creatures AC and Saves all increase by four, but it has only half of the hp of the original creature.
NOTE: This isn't intended neccesarily to reduce tracking, but to give a simple, quick to add template that let's you use 5-6 lower level foes and have then still be able to hit the PCs.
Thoughts?
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I been following this post the past couple of days and I also like the idea of minions. I have written up my own version of the minion template but dont have it available right now - will post it when I do.
The key issues I'm seeing in this discussion is the actual use of minions with the pathfinder encounter building system and the damage output. minions should not be used as an equal power to their primary CR. they should always be at least 2 CR below the party.
let's say you want your group of six 8th-level PCs to face a challenging encounter against a group of gargoyles (each CR 4) and their stone giant boss (CR 8). The PCs have an APL of 9, and table 12–1 tells you that a challenging encounter for your APL 9 group is a CR 10 encounter—worth 9,600 XP according to Table: Experience Point Awards. At CR 8, the stone giant is worth 4,800 XP, leaving you with another 4,800 points in your XP budget for the gargoyles. Gargoyles are CR 4 each, and thus worth 1,200 XP apiece, meaning that the encounter can support four gargoyles in its XP budget. You could further refine the encounter by including only three gargoyles, leaving you with 1,200 XP to spend on a trio of Small earth elemental servants (at CR 1, each is worth 400 XP) to further aid the stone giant.
This is a quote from the PRD on how to build an encounter
The issue with this encounter is the trio of small earth elementals that would effectively be pointless opponents. Using minions the DM could exchange 2 of the gargoyles for 8 minion gargoyles making book-keeping easier on the DM while still presenting the idea that the encounter is challenging with 11 miniatures on the table.
Regarding damage another issue missed from the 4e conversion is that minions do fixed damage. no dice is rolled and thus reduces time spent dealing with them. I worked into my system an average damage ratio equal to half the damage -2 (minimum 1).
Lastly someone mentioned about treasure - simply put 4 minions count as 1 creature so treasure would have to be shared between the 4 (not counting required items such as weapons and armor) and while this seems like it could be unbalancing handing out 4 greataxes weilded by the orc minions remember that minions are designed to be used as lower CR creatures and a party will likely only start meeting minions once they have passed level 3.
Lastly, in my play tests with minions I have noticed they do not work well on fraction CR creatures. kobolds, goblins and the like inflate their power too greatly by multiplying by 4. minions should only be applied to creatures with a CR of 1 or more. I have still to fully playtest the minion concept and I like some of the OPs ideas and playtesting is the most crucial part of this design idea. there are so many what if's that until you test them out you just don't know what the effect will be.
@ "Charender" - keep at it mate, you have the workings of a great idea for the Pathfinder RPG and I will post my own template here for you to see and use/abuse :).
I think another important point for minions, is their leader should have equal ease of dispatching disobedient ones in a moments notice.
Therefore, a comparison may be special troops in an army, where someone is trained to be an archer at the exclusion of anything else, or a pikeman, etc.
This leads to a minion with no iterative attacks, a bonus to hit with a specialized weapon, sub-par armor, hp and saves. It is up to debate if a morale bonus should be added to saves (this would be a power a leader has versus a basic ability of a minion)
I would still argue they would maintain any inherent racial abilities/powers, but may not have access to additional feats, or skills, unless is supports a specific role/specialization.
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ok Finally got home and found my template :)
Minions in 3rd Edition
The following is a Template that can be applied to any creature to turn it into a minion in a similar way that 4th edition handles the minion role. The intention is to bring large scale combats to 3rd edition without the inherent flaws of doing so with creatures whose CR is so far below the parties that they do not consider the creatures as a threat and would generally ignore them entirely. Minions now pose a sizable threat to a party without becoming too much of a burden for the GM to manage or for the players to waste large numbers of resources on disposing of them.
While any creature can have the minion template it’s generally best to use creatures that act as support or guards for bigger more powerful creatures. Given their low hit points and single mindedness to serve, a minion with a huge arsenal of special attacks or full repertoire of spells at his disposal only complicates their stat blocks with things they aren’t likely to ever use.
When Applying the minion template to a base creature be sure that the base creature has a CR of 1 or more. Fraction based CRs (1/2, 1/3 etc) are generally to weak and become unbalanced if you increase their number by 4. If you wish to use fraction based creatures as minions reduce the number of minions to 2 or 3 per base creature it replaces.
Minions Template
Size and Type The creature’s size type and any subtypes remain unchanged.
Hit Dice The creatures Hit Dice remains unchanged, however, the creature only gains 1 hit point per hit dice and loses any bonus hit points from high ability scores or from favoured class(es). The minion gains a bonus to its hit point total equal to its constitution modifier plus any miscellaneous bonuses from the base creature type.
Example: a 5th level fighter orc minion with an 18 constitution would have 9 hit points. If he also had the toughness feat he would gain and additional 5 hit points bringing his total hit points to 14.
In addition the creature dies immediately upon reaching 0 hit points.
Speed Minions retain all movement modes of the base creature. Minions act when ordered and have an initiative matching whichever creature they serve. If no order is given for a minion they act last in the round.
Armor Class No Changes
CMD No Changes
Attacks Minions select one single attack mode from the base creature as its primary attack, generally a melee attack this is the only attack they recieve. Minions are restricted to certain actions in a combat round; they may not perform a full attack, charge, coupe de grace, cast metamagiced spells, or use triggered magic items. They may not delay or ready unless ordered to do so by whatever creature they serve.
If the creature has both ranged and melee attacks available choose one primary attack for melee and one primary attack for ranged.
Creatures with multiple attacks due to appendages (such as hydras and mariliths) add the collective damage of their attacks together (see Damage).
CMB Minions can initiate combat manoeuvres and their CMB remains unchanged from the base creature. A common tactic for many minions is to aid another to bull rush or grapple a foe.
Damage Minion’s damage is fixed. To determine how much damage a minion does calculate as follows;
The base damage of the creature’s primary attack is equal to the dice average (round down) -2 (minimum of 1). Any damage bonus from strength is half for 1-handed weapons and equal to Strength bonus for 2-handed weapons, light weapons used in the offhand do not gain any bonus from strength.
Creatures with multiple attacks due to appendages add the damage of all their attacks together and subtract two from the average per appendage.
To calculate the average value of a range of dice take the lowest possible roll on a die, add the highest roll on that die, divide by 2 and multiply by number of dice. The following table gives an example of what damage difference attacks can do.
Dice Average Damage
1d6 or
less 1-3 1
1d8 4 2
2d4 5 3
1d10 5 3
1d12 6 4
2d6 7 5
2d8 9 7
3d6 10 8
2d10 11 9
3d8 13 11
4d6 14 12
5d6 17 15
6d6 21 19
Examples; A 1st level Orc fighter with a strength of 18 using a greataxe as his primary attack would normally deal 1d12 +6 damage (1 - ½ times strength). A minion orc warrior would do 8 points of damage.
A dire tiger has a primary attack of a bite (2d6) with 27 strength (+8 modifer). A Minion Dire Tiger would do 9 points of damage with its primary bite attack. It would also be able to make use of its grab ability.
A dire rat has a primary bite attack for (1d4) with a disease that does 1d3 dex and 1d3 con. A Minion dire rat would do 1 point of damage with the primary attack plus run the normal risks of being infected by the disease.
A 5-headed Hyrda would have 5 bite attacks for 1d8 (+3) each. A Minion Hydra would do the average of 5d8 (22.5), plus 1 per head for strength, and -2 for each head for a total damage of 17.
Minions cannot perform critical hits.
Special Attacks A Minion retains the base creatures (Ex) special attacks related to its primary attack but loses the use of any other special attacks; however such attacks may be used by command of the creature that the minion serves.
Minions with spellcasting levels choose one spell per spell level as their primary attack. This spell must be from their spell list. The minion cannot choose a spell level greater than the highest level spell the creature can cast -1 (minimum level 1). Spellcasting minions have a casting delay of 1 round per spell level.
Example: a Dark Naga (Caster level 7th) could choose magic missile as its level 1 spell, and scorching ray as its level two spell. It loses its level 3 spells. It can cast magic missile as a level 7 caster (4 missiles doing 1 point of damage each) every round or scorching ray (2 rays dealing 12 points of damage each) every other round.
Any special attacks that deal dice damage to a creatures hit points follow the rules for minion’s primary attack (average -2) and should be noted next to the special attack entry.
Special Qualities A Minion retains any special qualities of the base creature except as noted here;
Regeneration: If the minion has a form of regeneration it instead falls to -5 hit points when it dies and begins to heal 1 hp per round until it reaches 1 hp. In effect the regeneration only works when the creature is dying giving opponents a couple of rounds to dispatch of the creature before it again rises to return to the battle. GMs are encouraged to track minion regeneration from the round the last minion reaches deaths door. If they are shaken their regeneration ceases to function and the minion dies.
Damage reduction: DR for Minions is reduced to 1/xxxx
Spell Resistance: A Minions spell resistance is ignored, instead increase the minions saving throws by +1 if it possesses spell resistance.
Energy Resistance/Immunity: A minion retains its immunity to energy attacks but loses its resistances.
Minions gain the following special qualities.
Immunity to Enchantment (Charm/Compulsion) (Ex): Minions are immune to any single target enchantment spells, however they are still vulnerable to area enchantment spells like hypnotic pattern, sleep, or confusion.
Fanatic: Minions follow their leader’s commands without hesitation. This fanaticism leads them into situations usually beyond their abilities. All minions receive a +1 save bonus from fear spells and effects. However if their leader should be slain they immediately gain the shaken condition.
Saves As Base creature. When rolling for saving throws, minions automatically fail any saving throw targeting a single target. If rolling a save versus an area effect spell treat all minions as a single creature rolling only one saving throw for all minions. All minions in the area effect then suffer the effect as a group (for example a wizard casts a fireball that catches 7 of 8 minions, the wizard rolls damage once and applies it to all 7 minions in the area).
Abilities As Base creature.
Skills As Base creature.
Feats As Base creature. However, a minion will not make use of combat feats that are not related to the primary attack.
Challenge Rating 4 Minions are an equal CR to the base creature. Experience for defeating a group of 4 minions is equal to the base creature. Do not multiply it by 4.
Treasure As Base creature. Do not multiply the treasure by 4.
AlignmentAs Base creature.