While I would probably buy an Epic Level handbook for PFRPG, I still have problems imagining what could come after Level 20 that Wish/Miracle couldn't cover except for clunky mechanics.
For me Level 20 can be as awesome as you can get short of doing really nearly anything via "wishcraft" or leading you own vast nation.
I would like rules for gods and for epic characters partly separated. I think there were a lot of legends of mortals outperforming gods in certain areas. An epic character who has a higher character level than a god could account for that, even though the god would still be more powerful.
However, maybe a power limit would be good that effectively forces you out of the material plane after you reach a certain level and makes you automatically a god. Maybe at level 40.
A strategy system where you play a god and have to guide your worshipers would be a nice extra for that. :D
Well, I'm looking forward to whatever ends up happening.
I just hope that the good folks at Paizo get input from the people who do play epic (there's a good number of us) before they put something together, rather than providing a fait accompli - I tend to have an anti-house rule stance, and some things are just broken at high level, so it'd be good to get those out in the open before a ruleset is created.
I would be happy with a level cap of either 36th or 40th, personally. Divinity kicks in starting beyond 40th level in my game, so if the cap was only 30th, I'd have to bridge the gap somehow.
I think I've just been getting hung up on the whole "cap" thing. But like James mentioned before, it's no more a real cap than level 20 is a cap for the core system.
All he really means when he says there'd be a cap is that levels above that are not directly supported, and encounters/creatures are not directly supplied. No biggie. That's something I'm used to dealing with. I just want to avoid something like the 4e cap, which is a real true-blue "you shall not PASS" kind of thing.
And by the way - a level 40 cap would not work for me at all; for the campaign arc I've got planned, I've made an estimate that the characters will be around level 80 before the story finishes. They've got some major cosmic issues to deal with :)
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Well, I've been trying to put together some ideas for "Epic" PRPG play, it's mostly a culmination of ideas that were already presented. Let me know what you think, everyone.
Levels 21-40 "Epic"
20th level is the hard cap for each individual base class. For example, a 20th level Fighter that levels up to 21st level must choose to take 1 level in any class other than Fighter.
10th level is the hard cap for each individual prestige class. For example, a 20th level Monk/10th level Shadowdancer must choose to take 1 level in any class other than Monk or Shadowdancer when he gains a level.
Base attack bonuses still improve as per the individual class totals, but cannot have more than 4 iterative attacks due to a high base attack bonus. For example, a 15th level fighter/15th level cleric has a total base attack of +26/+21/+16/+11.
Base save bonuses still improve as per the individual class totals.
Magic weapons, armour, and shields have their caps increased to +10 for enhancement bonus, and total bonus including magical qualities cannot exceed +20.
Levels 41-60 "Legendary"
Same rules as "Epic" with the following exceptions:
Magic weapons, armour, and shields have their caps increased to +15 for enhancement bonus, and total bonus including magical qualities cannot exceed +30.
If any of the Paizo team wishes to use any or all of this, I won't object (not that I can really, due to messageboard rules and all lol).
Compatible.
To me, epic play is simply more time to play a grander story. Sure, I could try running a campaign at the 20 level cap, or I could use a slower progession. The story would work, but that is not very rewarding to the player (even if I would love it).
It takes time to play a meaningful story about powerful characters, and I need the system to embrace that.
So the epic rules needs blend a smoothly with level 1-20 as possible, and with older existing material. I want level 21 to be slightly more powerful than level 20, just like any other level.
Heck, the whole point with PF was being compatible. If I wanted a simpler new game, I would go for 4e.
To be honest character level, in my games, has nothing to do with how powerful or "epic" you are. I set the power level of my game based on the story and what the players will be doing. That might mean that they could get all the way to 40th level and still be nothing more than adventurers, or they could be gods at 20, it just depends on the game I'm running. It does make things a little more difficult having to create so many monsters and enemies, but it's the way i like to do it.
I don't look at having more levels as reaching god-like status, i just like it because it lets me get more out of my characters. My groups typically play to 40th level, it doesn't take too long we usually play with a very fast paced leveling progression, but it's just what we like. It just seems that my players and i feel a sense of completion with our characters at level 40.
Either way when paize does an epic book i will probably buy it. All in all that's what it boils down do, when they make the book, if you want it buy it, and if you don't, then don't. I don't think you're gonna hurt anyone's feelings.
I want to some day be able to quantify what the Oliphant of Jandelay is and can do.
Second that.
And vote one for Mhar. >D
I am probably a minority of one, but here are my thoughts.
I do not like caps. That includes level caps. Statistically it should be increasingly unlikely to find characters of levels above 30 or so, but it should be possible.
I like the idea of having a 60th level NPC paladin tucked away, who is the _only_ guy who survived a journey through the Carnivorous Canyons. Note: have I mentioned yet that entering the Carnivorous Canyons is widely considered to be a _really_ bad idea?
I like the idea that somewhere around 36th level, you start to gradually develop god-like attributes. This is how a character in my homebrew became a god: Novramil just kept adventuring and eventually people started praying to him for spells, which he was able to grant.
I like the idea of abilities continuing to progress through the levels. Granted, this means that fighters continue to get higher and higher babs until they can't miss ACs that wizards can't hit. This changes the nature of the game, but if it is going on at those levels, it's not going to be like mid-levels anyway.
No matter how powerful you get, there are always those who are more powerful than you are. In fact, there are those who are so much more powerful than you are that you can not even imagine how powerful they are. And you now have caught their attention.
I like the idea of spells higher than 9th level. I've designed a few, starting with the extending the idea of applying metamagic feats to existing spells, and working from their. My framework has been:
10-18 level spells are basically bigger, better than 7-9th level spells. Meteor swarms that can cover multiple city blocks. Summon prismatic fields or conjure entire villages.
19-27 level spells would be demi-god level spells.
28-36 level spells would be lesser god level spells.
37-45 level spells would be greater god level spells, able to affect entire planets.
46-54 level spells would be pantheon level spells, able to rewrite the entire plane. A spell that makes all Rogues everywhere forget how to Sneak Attack would be in this range.
Gaining higher level spell slots goes a lot slower after 20th level than it did before then.
I think class progression should be nuetral, in that it should not matter whether you take a 21st level in your base class, or whether you take it as a multiclass, or as a prestige class. I can't gaurentee that all class combinations would be equally viable, but the same philosophies should apply.
The idea that someone liked the rules in epic levels handbook fills me with equal parts amusement, horror, and despair.
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The idea that someone liked the rules in epic levels handbook fills me with equal parts amusement, horror, and despair.
i've run epic many of times (levels ranging 21 to 30 and pushing the high 50's). Now, I would never run a game past 40th again. Maybe 30th, heck maybe 24th. The point is, the rules were fine except for epic spellcasting, the CR's that were placed on certain monsters were not correct, and the conversion it requires to go from 3.0 to 3.5.
Today, i have a different opinion of what epic should be-like. Pathfinder has changed everything for me. I feel the power at lower-levels again, and mid-levels feel amazing and high levels...well...i haven't gotten that high yet except with one game (19th level fighter/wizard/eldritch knight). Epic should be smooth, easy, and little if no new rules required.
I DON'T want a new game.
I DON'T want a character reset.
I DON'T want a rules reset.
I DON'T want things to abruptly change for no logical reason. (such as hp)
I DO want a level cap.
I DO want balance.
and I DO want to take my wizard levels into the twenties and beyond.
What i wouldn't mine seeing are
-epic uses for skills
-epic feats
-epic combat maneuvers (such as grappling multiple targets at once)
-epic spells (not just slots)
-epic items/artifacts
-epic class features (imagine epic bardic songs, or rage powers)
-epic traps/curses/poisons
-epic monsters (such as the demi-lich)
thats my two copper
About Epic Level cap of the old Epic Rulebook, I think that what was written in the book is being ignored.
Altough the book had rough guidelines and some content to play up to level 100 and more, it actually had content (most monsters, magic items and mechanics) to play up to 40th level iirc, and it was stated in the book. Epic rules had a level cap, it just had basic mechanics to go further, as The Pathfinder Core Rulebook has got a few basic mechanics for epic play.
Creative Director
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Well, I'm looking forward to whatever ends up happening.
I just hope that the good folks at Paizo get input from the people who do play epic (there's a good number of us) before they put something together, rather than providing a fait accompli - I tend to have an anti-house rule stance, and some things are just broken at high level, so it'd be good to get those out in the open before a ruleset is created.
If/when we do an epic level book, we will do a public playtest of the rules just as we have with the core rules and the Advanced Player's Guide.
And we're already watching the messageboards anyway. I'm keeping a file on my computer of good ideas to explore for when we do an epic book, and some of those come from messageboard or chat room conversations.
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Creative Director
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Demigods start at 40th, basically. I could probably work with Hero/Quasi-deities though, between 30th and 40th. I never really found a good place for them, anyway.I would be happy with a level cap of either 36th or 40th, personally. Divinity kicks in starting beyond 40th level in my game, so if the cap was only 30th, I'd have to bridge the gap somehow.Demigods and saints perhaps?
Honestly... I actually prefer having demigods kick in much earlier, for one simple reason.
Chances are actually VERY good we'll some day do an epic book, but beyond that an additional level-cap increasing book would depend on the popularity of the epic book, which would most likely be a fraction of the popularity of the core rules (that's just the way things are). So once we get into fractions of fractions... at SOME point releasing level-cap extending products gets to a point where we simply can't afford to go on. My honest guess is that we'll hit that limit fast, and since I really want to have a rules-set that lets me stat up demon lords, and since we've already established that demon lords are demigods, that more or less locks things in to have demigods be things folks can fight at epic level, which ALSO more or less locks in "demigod" status at post 20th level.
Now, whether or not becoming a demigod is automatic at 21st level or if it's automatic when you hit the level cap (be that 30th, 36th, or 40th, or whatever), or if it's something that you can work towards hitting at some point in between... that's still fermenting in my mind.
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Creative Director
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-epic monsters (such as the demi-lich)
While an epic level book would absolutely have to have a nice dose of epic monsters in it... demi-lich won't be in that book. For Golarion and thus for Pathfinder, the demi-lich is a high CR but core creature—we've used one already in an Adventure Path, after all.
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Just a thought about epic and demigods etc. Why not have epic level rules for mortals from 21-40 or what ever you end up deciding it should be. Then you could include things like Demigod templates etc. How one becomes a demigod or god IMHO should be about a lot more than just leveling. If you do that then a demigod could be anything level 21 or higher that has a demigod template applied to it. Which of course like any template boost the CR rating of the monster in question. Anyways just a passing thought.
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Just a thought about epic and demigods etc. Why not have epic level rules for mortals from 21-40 or what ever you end up deciding it should be. Then you could include things like Demigod templates etc. How one becomes a demigod or god IMHO should be about a lot more than just leveling. If you do that then a demigod could be anything level 21 or higher that has a demigod template applied to it. Which of course like any template boost the CR rating of the monster in question. Anyways just a passing thought.
+1
i like that idea a lot actually.
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Wow this thread has found new life. I'm glad to hear that people not only support the idea of new epic rules, but also support the idea of ignoring the old ones and making ones that work.
Hopefully Paizo can find a way when the time comes to keep use from rolling 10d20s worth of attack roles and such. :)
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And we're already watching the messageboards anyway. I'm keeping a file on my computer of good ideas to explore for when we do an epic book, and some of those come from messageboard or chat room conversations.
I hope finding a way of streamlining attacks is included on your list then. I would hate to see fighter, ranger, etc. having to roll more attacks just so they continue to scale with increased monster hit points and spellcasters spells.
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Creative Director
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And we're already watching the messageboards anyway. I'm keeping a file on my computer of good ideas to explore for when we do an epic book, and some of those come from messageboard or chat room conversations.I hope finding a way of streamlining attacks is included on your list then. I would hate to see fighter, ranger, etc. having to roll more attacks just so they continue to scale with increased monster hit points and spellcasters spells.
It's absolutely on the list; we'll be looking at pretty much EVERY rule to see how we can streamline or adjust for epic play.
In fact, you can ALREADY streamline this element of the game simply by replacing those extra attack rolls with the effects of the Vital Strike feat, given out as bonus feats.
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I have to admit the more I think about the idea of template rules for demigods, demon princes and the like the more I like it. A template with x default powers and then give it a power pool of points to spend on. Like how the summoner pet has evolutions. Similar concept. Allows each one to be different but all using the same basic framework of rules.
Of course I am basised since i already suggested it once. :)
I have to admit the more I think about the idea of template rules for demigods, demon princes and the like the more I like it. A template with x default powers and then give it a power pool of points to spend on. Like how the summoner pet has evolutions. Similar concept. Allows each one to be different but all using the same basic framework of rules.
Of course I am basised since i already suggested it once. :)
All and all it is not much different than what deities and demigods did, except I didn't like the God template much and the book was a mess, more varied options would be nice.
Likewise I didn't think the epic rules from 3.5 that terrible, there were some nice feats and abilities to pick, but the execution was just bad, at some point it was really hard to distinguish 3.0 material from 3.5 material which messed up things even worse.
I'm curious ....
How many people here have played an epic game in the past year for real - i.e. not a one-session "let's make insane characters" thing, but a real game that lasted more than one session?
I've played in one campaign that went from starting characters to epic levels. My gaming group finished the ENWorld Publishing War of the Burning Sky campaign last fall. We started at 2nd level and ended around 23rd, which is pretty low on the Epic scale. We considered using the Epic Handbook, but decided to simply extrapolate character levels past 20. It worked fine for our intentions.
As for Pathfinder, I can see value in having a very limited amount (i.e. one or two books) of Epic Pathfinder material available.
I just looked through my old WarCraft RPG Shadows & Light and stumbled over how they handled it. There was a template (called Eternal) you could get when you had 20 HD in a lot of different ways. One eternal for example was a raven who was originally used by the goddess Elune to carry messages to her son Cenarius and got a bit of power from each of the eternals she worked for until she was an equal to them. Azshara was a night elf sorcerer and became an eternal when the Well of Eternity (=pure magic in liquid form) collapsed around her.
However it can't be easily applied to other settings, because Azerothian gods don't give spells, they are at best as powerful as demigods (even though some have crazily high levels, Elune is a level 85 healer).
I am actually running a game that has moved into what most people here would consider to be "epic" levels as in the the low 20's after 3+ years.
As a GM I try to keep my players occupied with more than just adventuring. My current characters do various things including rule a kingdom, run a thieves guild, own a trading company, command an army etc... To a large extent we have moved beyond tradational "adventuring" with these characters. Not to say they never get involved in such things but they are mostly too busy with other things to hunt down random dragons, etc....
It's not always about the next level of spells and such. Just give characters other things to worry about and keep them occupied.
I'd rather see rules for governing a kingdom than psionics. I'd actually rather tstick a lit match in my ear then see rules about psionics, but that's just me.
My main problem with Epic levels is that IMHO game mechanics just start to shatter at around 12-15th level. When the random seed in a skill or attack roll is 1d20, having modifiers of +30 or +40 in the game just seem to get out of control. I don't think the game itself is holding well at very high levels (1d20+38 Stealth against 1d20+56 perception), so yes, I am for a different system for epic levels, where rolling a die still has some relevance.
That said I also believe the game gives its best at around 5-10 level, when trolls are still dangerous foes and the 18th level lich wizard at the end of the adventure is still a foe that has to be handled with some meta-plot instead of pure firepower. But I know, this is just my view of the game.
While I would probably buy an Epic Level handbook for PFRPG, I still have problems imagining what could come after Level 20 that Wish/Miracle couldn't cover except for clunky mechanics.
Creating your own demiplane, for starters.
Personally, I'm in the E6 camp -- our real world can be modeled in the first six levels of typical gameplay. Anything past that is beyond the abilities of real-world people, and is thus "epic."
However, if I were to see an Epic Handbook, I'd like to see it done in incremental levels -- maybe make it a softcover book series, where each book handles the next five levels. Book 1 would cover up to 25, Book 2 up to 30, etc. I don't want generic "you get an attack bonus/save bonus/some skills/maybe-a-feat/whatever-class-abilities-dependent-on-uses-per-level rules; I want to see characters with wholly new abilities.
For an example, see Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, wherein he provides 25 levels for each class.
I had a blast with epic level play (I plaed up to level 40th).
Said this, the epic rules have several problems. The biggest offender is epic magic. It's a great idea but badly designed.
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Y'know, I don't understand why people don't just continue the progressions of the current classes/prestige classes past level 20. Sure, you're most likely not going to get abilities EVERY level, but you still have a lot of options to go through and you can start working on multiple feat chains. If you really want to bring in some of the epic feats, that's easy too.
Y'know, I don't understand why people don't just continue the progressions of the current classes/prestige classes past level 20.
Because the further in that direction you go, the more the math breaks down. If you continue to increase BAB and saves at the same rate, they start to break down because the delta between Full BAB/high save and 3/4 or 1/2 BAB/poor save gets closer and closer to 20, meaning it becomes harder and harder to challenge both equally. If a level 42 Fighter has a BAB of 42 and the level 42 Wizard has a BAB of 21, the Wizard cannot hit anything that the Fighter can fail to hit, aside from rolling a natural 20, and cannot crit at all. The same thing happens with saves. Even at level 30, the Fighter has 30 BAB to the Wizard's 15, and if the Fighter has even a 30% chance to not hit the target, the Wizard won't be able to hit it. And this is all before taking into account that Fighters have more ways to get extra hit bonuses, I'm just talking about raw mathematics.
I have played Epic levels a couple of times, there are always going to be problems with the system at higher level, but I think that Pathfinder really did a great job of making the system work better at higher levels.
I would love to get an epic book for pathfinder, in fact I am working on having an epic level game soon. I like the idea I read about early in the thread about there being a level cap to keep CR manageable.
So far I have liked every thing that Paizo has done and would like to see what they can do with Epic level play.
As I'm sure I mentioned somewhere else here, over at Dicefreaks we've been playing around a great deal with epic levels for some years. For a long time most of us believed the existing epic system could be made to work with some minor tweaking - and I still believe that if the DM and players are all on the same page it can - but eventually the conclusion we reached was that there was far too much variance built into the system and far too many issues that cropped up. The biggest offenders were things like multispell and any feat that granted a numerical bonus to armor class or attack bonus which could be taken multiple times. If everyone isn't on the same page the game rapidly breaks down as various PC numbers grow too far apart and the actual D20 slips into irrelevance.
I think not putting a cap on the system was stupid, and I think the choice on how they went about building epic spells was similarly bad. Fortify? Oh boy...
That said, I think there were a lot of good things in the 3.0 epic system, and I think the designers had a lot of the right ideas. You have to standardize base attack bonus and saves for all classes. I'm also in favor of standardizing ALL defensive and offensive numbers (armor class, spell DC boosts, SR, ect) for PCs at each level. That doesn't mean making every class the same, but it does mean not allowing the numbers for any of these things to get further apart than they are for respective PCs at 20th level.
I think you should cap epic magic items at +6 in numerical enchantment bonus (that is, +6 rings of protection, +6 sword enchantment, +6 resistance, ect), and move epic magic items more towards interesting items that grant additional abilities rather than just bigger numbers.
I think epic level class benefits should generally speaking increase damage (because hit points continue to increase at a hearty rate), or new capabilities, rather than just better +'s.
I do NOT want a complete reset of abilities. I DO want a level cap (40 would be preferable).
The beginnings of a system some of us worked up over at DF can be found here if anyone is interested.