In Gygax's Necropolis is an equivalent magical item to the Ring of wizardry. It is called the Blackstar Ruby. Here is the write up:
BLACK STAR RUBY
This small gemstone comes in four types and mimics the
abilities of a ring of wizardry, though it doubles the spells per
level for divine, rather than arcane, casters.
Caster Level: 1 1st (black star ruby I), 14th (black star ruby
II), 17th (black star ruby IIJ), or 20th (black star ruby IV);
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, miracle; Market Price:
20,000 gp (black star ruby I), 40,000 gp (black star ruby II),
70,000 gp (black star ruby III), or 100,000 gp (black star ruby
IV); Weight: - Ib.
Does this item seem to make sense to players of Divine casters?
In Gygax's Necropolis is an equivalent magical item to the Ring of wizardry. It is called the Blackstar Ruby. Here is the write up:
BLACK STAR RUBY
This small gemstone comes in four types and mimics the
abilities of a ring of wizardry, though it doubles the spells per
level for divine, rather than arcane, casters.
Caster Level: 1 1st (black star ruby I), 14th (black star ruby
II), 17th (black star ruby IIJ), or 20th (black star ruby IV);
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, miracle; Market Price:
20,000 gp (black star ruby I), 40,000 gp (black star ruby II),
70,000 gp (black star ruby III), or 100,000 gp (black star ruby
IV); Weight: - Ib.Does this item seem to make sense to players of Divine casters?
Not sure why it is double the price of the ring of wizardry. If anything, divine spells are weaker than arcane spells.
I would put in more detailed rules. It doubles base spells, not spells from high ability scores or domain spells, etc.
it is not the double the cost of a ring of wizardy, it is the same cost, those numbers at the end are Market Price, not Cost which should be half of market price.
Two things, one they are exactly the same price as the Ring of Wizardry in the Core rules; Second Necropolis is 3.0.
it is not the double the cost of a ring of wizardy, it is the same cost, those numbers at the end are Market Price, not Cost which should be half of market price.
You are correct I was looking at construction costs.
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I don't like the idea.
First, I should say that I'm not a fan of "metamagic" spells like Assay Spell Resistance or Mnemonic Enhancer.
In this particular case I don't like the feel of a metamagic device that increase the number of divine spell slots. It somehow seems wrong to me that metamagic (which is essentially the province of arcane casters) can increase the abilities of a divine caster.
From a simply story/fluff point of view, what self-respecting cleric would accept an arcane boost to the spells provided by their deity? I don't see any cleric admitting that their deity is weaker than another so they need this extra help...
Just my $.02
so you don't like rings of wizardry or pearls of power either then I take it?
so you don't like rings of wizardry or pearls of power either then I take it?
He does has a fluff point. If you play with the idea that divine spells are boons granted by your god, then a magic item that gives you more divine spells would be akin to stealing from your god.
You could get around this by making is a sacred artifact of a specific diety rather than a generic magic item. Instead of the Blackstar Ruby, it would be The Eye of Iomadae. Same bonuses, but only works for a cleric of Iomadae, and can only be crafted by a follower of Iomadae. There are rules and feats for sacred items in complete divine.
HMMM. Perhaps this should have been in General Discussion. IF so, please move it.
EDIT: The Blackstar Ruby is not an arcane boost of Divine spells. It is a Wondrous Item that allows the same magic item boost that a Ring does. Do you consider Rings to be Metamagic devices?
HMMM. Perhaps this should have been in General Discussion. IF so, please move it.
Nah, rules wise, it looks fine. Fluff wise, it depends on the campaign world and exactly how you decide that divine spells work.
Fluff wise, if you decide that any increase of divine spells increases the chances of keeping your party healthy, wealthy, and wise then this item is a God-send not a curse. I guess it all depends on what type of campaign you play in. Whether it is High magic, Low magic, or No magic.
so you don't like rings of wizardry or pearls of power either then I take it?He does has a fluff point.
If he had a fluff point, it would similarly apply to Sorcerers.
From this point forward, ONLY Wizards can benefit from anything
so you don't like rings of wizardry or pearls of power either then I take it?He does has a fluff point.If he had a fluff point, it would similarly apply to Sorcerers.
From this point forward, ONLY Wizards can benefit from anything
Not really, since when did sorcerer have limits on their spell casting that was imposed by the god they serve?
Like I said, it depends on how you decide divine magic works.
If you go with the idea that divine magic is directly granted by a god who is giving you some of their power. The a magic item that give you more of a gods power doesn't really make sense.
If you go wit the idea that divine magic is granted by the caster's faith, and gods are distant and only check in every now and they, then this is an item that increases the wearer faith, and thus give them more spells per day.
Sorcerer may not cast Divine spells. But their spellcasting is entirely different from Wizards. Same with Bards.
so you don't like rings of wizardry or pearls of power either then I take it?He does has a fluff point.If he had a fluff point, it would similarly apply to Sorcerers.
From this point forward, ONLY Wizards can benefit from anything
Not really. Divine casters are granted spells by a greater power; If a magic item should increase their spells per day, it has to be either by stealing the god's power, or by having the god think "he has that item, so I guess I'll grant him more power". Neither of these feel very fitting.
There is a third case though - since the gods aren't omnipotent, it could be that it takes a toll of the gods to give spells to their followers, and that a lot of the divine energy is lost in the transmission. A magic item could act as a channel to the gods power, reducing the amount of lost energy, so the god can grant more spells. That is one explanation I could accept in my gaming world.
Arcane casters of all kinds, aren't given power by someone else - they manipulate the magic energy inside them, or manipulate the energy surrounding them. Thus, an item that makes it easier to do this haven't got any "moral" (in the eyes of the user) problems associated with stealing from your god.
See it like this: For the divine caster, the caster is a tool to the origin of the power, for the arcane caster, the power is a tool to the caster. An item that increases that power for the caster is far easier to explain.
Or perhaps the reason the gods don't grant more power is because the initiate cannot handle it. (if a god suddenly dumped 20 levels worth of spells into their 1st level follower, all that divine power would melt their brain). The Ruby acts as a dampener of sorts, allowing the god to grant them more power...
That, too, is a great explanation.
I don't think this item is really necessary. As far as divine spells go, I haven't run out of low level spells except at low level. At high level you're throwing out Heal and Wall of Thorns every round instead of trying to use Bestow Curse or something. I have difficulty seeing a character use a ring slot for any of these rings besides the 4th level one for a Druid.
The ring of wizardry is awesome for arcane casters because they need versatility. The Wizard obviously can now prepare more utility spells and buffs, and the Sorcerer can now use any buff spells or blasts more times a day. The Bard really loves this baby since he has slower casting progression and he can get uses of more potent spells out of it.
For an Inquisitor this item would be great, though. I cast a 4th level buff every combat, which limits my options. With double the spells I don't have to worry once I reach the last one or two.
As I usually played Druids or Clerics, I too wondered at the lack of Divine items that did similar things that appeared for Arcane casters. When I ran Necropolis I was amazed that someone (Mr. Gygax) had actually created an item specifically for Divine casters. I like the possible explanations for why they were created in game. With the permission of the writers I will probably use one or two in my own game.
I wish to thank those that took time to respond to my little thread. I have enough of an idea where some of this community stands when it comes to boosting Divine casters abilities to cast spells.
As far as I am concerned this thread is closed.
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It somehow seems wrong to me that metamagic (which is essentially the province of arcane casters) can increase the abilities of a divine caster.
So you don't support the idea of metamagic, such as Extend Spell or Quicken Spell, affecting divine spells?
It's an interesting concept, but, as far as I know, not one that I've ever seen before.
I'd be far more concerned with the idea of using divine magic to craft magical items. If a priest of the goddess of pacificism and mercy scribes a scroll of cure light wounds, or brews a potion of lesser restoration, there's nothing at all to prevent a priest of the god of torture and bloodshed to read that scroll, or a half-fiendish rakshasa sorcerer pledged to the ancestral enemies of the gods themselves from drinking that potion and benefitting from that cure X wounds spell.
Divine magic, no matter it's name, isn't any more limited than arcane magic when it comes to being modified by metamagic, placed into items or even 'cheated' by buffing up one's casting stat for a few bonus spells or turning / rebuke attempts that you wouldn't have been able to use otherwise.
Heck, Imbue with Spell Ability explicitly allows a priest to hand off the power of their god to random schmoes on the street, even if those schmoes have never even heard of the god who granted that power. Arcanists can't even do that!
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It somehow seems wrong to me that metamagic (which is essentially the province of arcane casters) can increase the abilities of a divine caster.So you don't support the idea of metamagic, such as Extend Spell or Quicken Spell, affecting divine spells?
Nope, those are fine. They are part of the process of petitioning your deity/spellgiver/whatever. They take up a higher level slot and it shows (to the deity) that the cleric is planning ahead, which most deities would likely consider a Good Thing. (There may be others who would consider planning ahead a failing. :))
Heck, Imbue with Spell Ability explicitly allows a priest to hand off the power of their god to random schmoes on the street, even if those schmoes have never even heard of the god who granted that power. Arcanists can't even do that!
On the one hand I could point to that added flexibility as a counter for metaspells being more powerful than needed for clerics. On the other hand, I don't think I'd allow a cleric of deity X to give a spell to a worshipper of deity Y when those two deities are in opposition to each other.
But there I go again trying to add a little fluff to the game to make the world seem "alive"... ;)
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But there I go again trying to add a little fluff to the game to make the world seem "alive"... ;)
Maybe to you. I don't mean that as an insult, but there are a great many reasons that that may happen. Maybe the priest/deity wants to convert the other away from their belief, or make inroads to them. Maybe the priests are friends, and do not follow the exact mood-swings of their patron deities. Deities do not constantly monitor their priests actions. Maybe the deity is bored and wants to see what will happen if certain things are allowed. Maybe the deities are fake or don't care. Maybe another deity steps in and grants the ability without you or your deity knowing.
As for adding fluff, does that really? One of the worst mistakes a DM can make, in my opinion, is impossing rules (and "fluff") that is limited to thier own limited understanding of a concept, (but tends to automatically dismiss others views and understandings outright). Again, not an insult to you, but your trying to impose a logic that is by it's nature beyond common mortal understanding.
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But there I go again trying to add a little fluff to the game to make the world seem "alive"... ;)
'Fluff' generally describes non-mechanical changes, like the honeysuckle-draped temples of diety X are inhabited by bees, which are considered sacred animals by the clergy and not shooed off or swatted, or clerics of diety Y never wear the color purple, considering it disrespectful to the goddess, as it's her sacred color.
This is a rules restriction that forbids divine casters from using certain game elements, which, in a game designed with such restriction, can indeed be flavorful, but is it countered by special advantages that divine casters gain that arcane casters do not? Or special arcane restrictions not present in the core rules?
Change *can* be neat, so long as it doesn't arbitarily make one class less fun to play for no specific reason.
Balance wise, I think it makes sense. I always thought it odd there wasnt a divine version of the rings.
It's a holdover from 1st/2nd Ed AD&D.
Under official 1st/2nd Ed rules, clerics and druids gained additional spells from high Wisdom; no other spellcasters (bard, 1st Ed illusionist, magic user, paladin, ranger, or 2nd Ed specialist mage) gained additional spells from high ability scores. The rings of wizardry were a way to provide illusionists/magic users/specialty mages bonus spell slots that clerics/druids got "for free."
The ring of wizardry is awesome for arcane casters because they need versatility.So you play clerics as a healbot, therefore they don't need versatility? Sorry, that just doesn't follow. Clerics benefit every bit as much as wizards from having twice as many spells of any level.
Putting words in my mouth only illustrates how little you know about the subject.
Check the prices on these items again. The ring for doubling level 1 spells is a 20,000 gp item. You are likely to get a 20,000 gp item at, being very generous, level 9. Level 9 clerics can cast fifth level spells and down. At that level, the only first level spells you're going to be casting are Shield of Faith, Divine Favor once you run out of Divine Power, Maybe remove fear if you're fighting a dragon or something, and Cure light wounds. Every other spell I'm seeing aside from comprehend languages (For when you're out of Tongues) would beenfit from being heightened to keep the save usable. Unless you play your cleric throwing out easily resisted commands (Surely less useful than a healbot) the item is next to useless except for the spells described above, only one of which is legitimately useful in its own right (shield of faith). Unless you're running an optional rule that lets clerics use decent domain spells and prep them, this item does not provide a legitimate use.
Druid spell selection for level 1 is even more useless at high levels (Aside from Faerie Fire), and having played many druids I would know.
Level 2 is a million times better, especially for the druid, but oh look it's 40,000, and in a high powered game you might see it at level 12. Much more useful for a druid than a cleric, who at that level has got a good spell with Shield Other, which has a long duration anyway, and Resist Energy, which could be replicated more cheaply through scroll use. Druid has Summon Swarm, Barkskin, Resist Energy (scrolls), Soften Earth and Stone (Should be heightened), and Fog Cloud, all of which are useful at high levels.
The 3 and 4 rings are also much more useful, but the level you get them at is much higher. In general a divine caster does not need this kind of flexibility unless as a druid all you fight are spellcasters that need swarmed. For a Sorcerer having a stupid amount of spells opens up brand new options, and for a Wizard- Well, let's just say there's a reason the item is called a Ring of Wizardry. For the divine casters this means four more cure light wounds or other single spell uses, and in that case a wand of the spell at your caster level would be much cheaper.
Divine spells aren't necessarily allocated directly from a god, as in, the god probably doesn't sit there and go, oh, this cleric, I like him, so I'll give him 5 1st level spells, 4 2nd level, etc. Likewise, when a cleric casts a spell, he is casting it himself - it doesn't come directly from the deity. It uses his caster level and his stats for the save DC, not the god's. The god is just granting the cleric a source of power to draw from, but how much and how effectively the cleric can do so is entirely up to the cleric and has nothing to do with the god.
It's not unreasonable to imagine that there are magical items that can increase a cleric's strength of will, faith and understanding such that it grants him a stronger connection to the divine source he serves, allowing him to use his divine powers more often. If you were to view such an item as "stealing" a god's powers, wouldn't a pearl of power be doing the same thing?
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I would tend to think that clerics and druids are NOT offered divine versions of extra spells is because they get so much already.
Clerics:
1) Combat oriented with hit points, ability to wear armor, and can use alot of weapons.
2) Gain the ability to turn undead.
3) Spells
Druids:
1) Well its alot of extra stuff they gain, I'll not gonna go thru level by level of the PHB
2) Spells
Wizards:
1) Spells
Thats all wizards have are spells. No heavy armor, no hit points, etc. Thats really the big reason why they dont have Ring of Wizardry for divine casters.
If you want a fluff reason, I would say that, a cleric relies on his wisdom and faith. Not the stat of wisdom but general wisdom. "Oh mighty thor, I pray to thee for a spirital hammer to smite the evil giants!" Clerics are prolly looked upon to have the wisdom to manage what gifts (ie spells and turning) by the gods.
The last possibility was that gygax was drunk and never thought about it. :)