Choice between battle cleric / battle oracle?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Hi,

I recently got The PFChron Campaign setting. Saw that Cleric can select a Celestial Paragon as a Patron. Ragathiel has Vengence in his Portfolio and grants Destruction as a Domain (which I've wanted to take but until now no good deity had it)

I'm having trouble deciding whats more combat effective.
1. A Bastard Sword (Ragathiel's Favored Weapon) wielding cleric with the destruction/nobility domains.

2. A Falchion weilding Battle Focus Oracle with Skill at Arms, Weapon Mastery, Manuvere Mastery, War Sight Mysteries.

Either Build Will Prc into Fist of Raziel (redone with Ragathiel as the Patron- thematically this fits)
Feat Selection Is Similar. Furious Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Weapon Focus, Servant of the heavens. The Oracle Gets Imp Crit and gtr Wpn Fcs, Imp,Gtr Sunder as well.

both builds focus early on charges, then later get smite from the Prc.
The cleric has channeling, Destructive Smite, Destructive Aura, Leadership, Inspiring Word

The oracle gets heavy armour, extra feats, spont casting, less mad.

It appears early the cleric gets more- Destructive Smite Bonus Damage, Channeling but these abilities get less useful at high levels (Channel Tops out at 5d6 and Destructive smite is worth +5damage)

The strength of the oracle is higher to hit (+1), can sunder, better AC and Spont Casting (great as there spell choices for a Buffer/healer are fairly straighforward and you can spam them)

Thoughts?


Definitely Battle Oracle.

The spontaneous casting alone is reason enough.

As a combat oriented caster, you will need the same few spells over and over, not a wide variety of spells castable once or twice a day. Being able to Righteous Might in any and every encounter is worth it.

Furthermore, Falchion + Imp Crit is way way better than Bastard Sword.

The clerics benefits aren't all that impressive. Destructive Smite is ok but not great. The aura is nice but takes a standard action to activate, and as a caster/fighter you are short on actions anyways since you generally need to spend at least a round or two buffing for each fight. That one also has some potential drawbacks, as you can get auto-critted as well; really bites if you end up fighting some ranged attackers mixed with melee combatants. The channeling is near worthless, as it will top out due to the PRC and won't be worth the time to use it in a fight--unlike the Paladins lay on hands. Biggest benefit cleric gets is the better Fort save.

Oracle ends up with more feats, which is important since your build will be feat starved to begin with, especially having to qualify for the PRC.

At higher levels the Oracle will be able to spam Heals, which will make for significantly more survivability.

Be sure and take quicken spell, since spontaneous casters can use it now. Being able to throw up swift action buffs is really important once you get 5th lvl spells and higher. Quickened Divine Favor is really nice for this type of build. I'd probably try to get Extend Spell too.

I'd probably take Oracle to 8th, but definitely no farther, then head into the PRC for the next ten levels.

How are you going to work the Smite ability of the FoR? Do it the old way or like the PF Paladin's Smite Evil? Seeing how the PRC is really smite-based looks like things could get tricky. Though honestly, the full BAB and 9/10 spellcasting and d10 HD is reason enough to take the PRC.

I played a Paladin 7/Favored Soul 1/Fist of Raziel before and it was really fun, and he was quite tough. He was mounted combat based though more so than caster; I took the one level of Favored Soul just to get better spells from the PRC levels. He rode a celestial pegasus. His charging damage was ridiculous especially with all his smites.


Thanks for the confirm, I figured Oracle was better but when I saw the Ragathiel demigod I liked the idea of a semi-smitey cleric from lvl 1.

As to levels it will go Oracle 8/FOR1/Oracle12/FOR8 in that order. PRC Smite is treated as Pathfinder Smite.

The feat list is
1-Power Attack, H-Cleave, Skill at arms
3- EXP- Great Scimitar (from Sandstorm), Weapon Mastery Mystery (wpn fcs)
5- Extend Spell
7- Servant of the Heavens, Manuvere Mastery (imp sunder)
9- Extra Smiting
11-Quicken Spell
12- Warsight
13- Crit Focus, Gtr Wpn Fcs, Gtr Sunder
15 Bleeding Crit
17 Staggering Crit
19 Leap Attack

Cheers.

Grand Lodge

makes me wanna play an Oracle!


A couple more comments:

- I don't think the Exotic Weapon Proficiency is going to be worth it. Basically you would spend a feat to bump your weapon damage from a 1d6 to a 1d8. Thats an average of 1 pt of damage per swing; I wouldn't consider that worth a feat.

Now you will likely spend a good deal of your combats as large size, due to the enlarge person spell from your mystery, or from Righteous Might. That makes the weapon change from a 1d8 to a 2d6 weapon, which is an average difference of 2.5pts and probably worth the feat. HOWEVER, I think you would get much more damage output with Great Cleave rather than this feat. ESPECIALLY if you are large size and have a 10' threat range. Combat Reflexes would also be a solid feat choice that would likely result in more damage overall, although I imagine your dex won't be great.

The benefits of the feats that give an extra attack verses one that gives a slight boost to damage greatly increase as your overall damage goes up and your ability to take extra attacks goes up. See, lets say you are doing an average of 25 points of damage per swing (not an uncommon result after about lvl 5 or 6, don't know if you are intending to wield two handed or use a shield). Now, you could take the feat and get a boost of say 2.5 pts per hit. Or take Combat Reflexes or Great Cleave. Now for every one extra hit you land due to either of these feats, you need to hit a total of 10 times to match that extra damage and make the EWP feat worth it. This increases substantially as your damage goes up with levels, due to strength increases, power attack increases, and weapon enhancement increases. If you are doing an average of 50 points of damage, then you'd need to hit an extra 20 times to account for the same damage output for every extra hit from Great Cleave or Combat Reflexes.

(The numbers change drastically if you aren't large size, basically for every ten points of damage you do on average you'd need to hit an additional 10 times to make up for any extra hit received from the feats. So an average of 25 pts of damage requires and extra 25 hits to match.)

This also doesn't even account for criticals, which will skew heavily in favor of the extra attacks, particularly with a crit focused weapon such as a scimitar with Imp Crit.

Just my thoughts on the EWP feat. I'm usually not a big fan of this feat unless its for a specific type of weapon style (such as spiked chain) or something core to the character concept. Given that the Great Scimitar is just a larger scimitar, and is almost equivalent to a Falchion, theres really no conceptual need for it.

- Great Scimitar suggets you want to use a shield too. Thats going to lead to spellcasting problems as both your hands will be occupied, whereas you can cast with no hinderance when wielding a two-handed weapon. If AC appears to be an issue, then get a buckler (you can enhance it with Magic Vestment if necessary) and take Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior. You'd take a -1 to attacks with a two-handed weapon while wearing the buckler, but would retain your shield's AC; you can also cast spells with the buckler hand, but in PF you would lose the buckler's AC for that round. Another option would be to retool the Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage for use with Pathfinder; it lets you use a weapon or similiar sized object to perform the somatic components of a spell, but it requires 5 ranks in Concentration so it would need to be reworked.

You could also just use a scimitar and carry a shield so you can decide in each combat depending on the situation whether wielding two handed or one-handed with a shield is best.

(I used Imp Buckler Defense with a character very similar to the one you are making. He was for a Dragonlance campaign and was a Mystic (wisdom based spontaneous divine spellcaster) with the War domain. It worked pretty well and kept his AC way up.

- You have two critical feats listed, but you can only apply one of them at a time. The option to choose is nice of course, but it would be better to have feat choices you can use more often, rather than feats that you can never use together. I definitely prefer the staggering critical, as it can severely limit what your opponent can do in response.

- Not sure if going past lvl 8 in Oracle is worth it. I like Oracle 8 and then straight into PRC till its done. The extra 4 levels of Oracle give you an extra 8 skill points, two extra spells known, an extra mystery (warsight in your case), and improved mystery effects (Greater WF, Greater Sunder, and the initiative benefits from War sight).

The extra levels of the PRC give 2 extra smites per day (really big since you are doing it based on the PF Paladin's smite evil), +1 BAB, Sanctify Martial Strike (weapon is good aligned and deals +1 or +1d4 extra damage vs evil), and the auto confirming crits when smiting (also really big considering a 15-20 crit range).

The Greater WF gets canceled out for the most part by the -1 BAB of the Oracle, so thats a wash. The extra spells known are Wall of Fire (practically useless to you) and Righteous Might (you'd take it anyways, but its free so its nice); thats OK but not super important. Greater Sunder is nice of course, but highly situational. The Biggest thing is the War Sight and its nice effects.

The lost BAB is big, even if overall its cancelled out by Greater WF. This pushes down your Power Attack increases (you'll get -4 PA at lvl 15) and your third iterative attack (at lvl 14) and your fourth attack (at lvl 19!)

However, your Smite damage is based on your FoR levels and not Oracle levels. To get the most of that you need the FoR levels, otherwise it becomes just an attack boost (and possibly a defense boost, but ring of protections or Shield of Faith will likely cancel out the AC boost for the most part). I'd particularly want the auto-confirming smites ASAP, since with the 15-20 crit range that becomes a very likely result.

Otherwise I just don't see the point of taking the PRC, especially the one level dip at 9th and then 4 more levels of Oracle. Why dilute your already slowed down spellcasting for a free Magic Circle effect? Just go straight Oracle and be done with it.

- Don't overlook Combat Casting as a good feat to have. Casting defensively is much harder now, and you will be in the thick of things quite often.


A vote of dissent, here:

Are you going to be the party's only divine caster? Are you going to be playing from level one?

If the answer to both of these questions is no, then go for the battle oracle. It'll serve as a fun and functional party tank.

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, however I would strongly consider the Cleric over the Oracle. If the answer to both of these questions is yes, even more so.

If you are the only divine caster, then you'll be expected to provide between battle healing until the party has access to a wand of cure light wounds, and after that you'll still be expected to provide situational fixes - break enchantments, stone to fleshes, lesser and greater restorations - all those really situational spells that every module assumes every party has access to because every prepared divine caster does have access to them by default. Sadly, because those spells are so situational, Oracles really really don't want to spend spells known slots on them. And your bonus spells per day won't mean anything early on when you're burning them to provide less efficient healing then a cleric gets for free via channel energy.

And spontaneous casting? Well the freedom you get doesn't help you too much as a battle caster - you'll already know more or less what buffs you'll want to cast, so you could have prepared them anyway. And your highest level spell slots frequently only have one spell known to choose from, so it's not like you really have all that much freedom, anyway.

What does help you is the extra spells per day, but even that isn't as good as it looks, since the cleric gets an extra spell of each spell level from their domain And they gain access to higher spell levels earlier. So in the end, you'll have one spell more then the cleric of lower spell levels, while you'll be about tied for your highest spell level, and at half of all levels the cleric will have access to 2-3 spells per day of a spell level higher then you even have access too. So you have more lower level spells per day, but the cleric has more higher level spells per day, and I'll leave you to guess which is usually the better deal. Adding insult to injury, clerics gain access to domain spells as soon as they can cast spells of that level, while oracles don't gain focus spells until a level after they've gained access to that spell. Which means oracles don't get their 3rd level focus spell until clerics have already gained their 4th level domain spell.

For the first few levels, the spellcasting isn't even close between a cleric and oracle. They know all their spells, you know hardly any. They're casting level 2 spells, and more spells total per day, when you're still stuck with level one spells. They get to spend all their spells on battle cleric things and still use channel energy to heal, while you have to burn your spell slots on healing.

And at those levels, domain powers are almost as good as your focus abilities (and if you were any focus other then battle they'd be just better).

Oracle eventually pays off - somewhere in the level 7 to 13 range - when your curse benefits start to outweigh the penalties and your focus powers finally start getting noticeably better then equivalent domain powers, and you finally have enough spells known that spontaneous casting means anything at all, and some of the more decent buffs start to become available, and charged items become cheap enough that your party doesn't need between rounds healing. If you're the only divine caster, though, you're still going to suffer from needing to spend precious spells known slots on situational 'fix it' spells that can spell doom for a party that doesn't have access to them.

But until then, the cleric is just much, much better due to their overwhelmingly superior casting abilities and their secondary class features that provide relevant benefits much earlier then the secondary class features of oracles.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A choice between an orcacle or a cleric is not that dissimilar between choosing a sorcerer and a wizard. They both boil down to this basic choice, more or less:

Be absolutely awesome in one role and one role only, or be Pretty damm good in a number of roles depending on how you prepare yourself at the start of the day.

Both are valid choices, it really depends on what you want to do.


Malisteen wrote:
If you are the only divine caster, then you'll be expected to provide between battle healing until the party has access to a wand of cure light wounds, and after that you'll still be expected to provide situational fixes - break enchantments, stone to fleshes, lesser and greater restorations - all those really situational spells that every module assumes every party has access to because every prepared divine caster does have access to them by default.

You realize that all oracles get the cure line for free? Break enchantment and the restorations are prime candidates for scrolls because they're rarely used, and stone to flesh isn't even a cleric spell.

Quote:
And spontaneous casting? Well the freedom you get doesn't help you too much as a battle caster - you'll already know more or less what buffs you'll want to cast, so you could have prepared them anyway. And your highest level spell slots frequently only have one spell known to choose from, so it's not like you really have all that much freedom, anyway.

Again, not really true, especially the part about the highest-level spells. Oracles always know at least two spells of any given level except ninth (the relevant cure spell plus the spell they choose), and that goes up to at least four spells the level after they get a new spell level (cure + 2 chosen spells + granted spell from their mystery).


I'd very much disagree with Malisteen's assessment of the oracle vs. cleric for this role.

The reason the oracle is better is not just because he has more castings per day, its because he can call upon any of his spells known as needed, not just as many times as it was prepared that day.

(Sure the oracle can run out of spell slots, limiting what spells he can call upon, but the cleric will do that well before the oracle will.)

This becomes a very big factor once fourth and fifth level spells start coming. How many Divine Power's will a battle cleric prepare? One, two? How many Freedom of Movements? How many Air Walks? The oracle doesn't have to make this decision until the actual need arises. Theres quite a few good spells at 4th and 5th level that a divine caster will want access to everyday

Even at higher levels, the cleric will only have 5+1 spells of fourth and fifth level (until 26+ Wisdom can be had). The oracle will have 4+1+1 spells known of each of those levels, and 7 spells per day. No matter how many different spells the cleric could prepare in those slots, he can still only have 5+1 prepared. Thats where the oracle comes out ahead, since he can decide how many of each of his spells he needs each day as the need arises. If he needs multiple Freedom of Movements on himself and the party, the oracle can do that. The cleric just can't.

And at higher levels, especially if just using PF core, the cleric spell list gets very thin as far as useful spells. Look at the 7th 8th and 9th lvl cleric lists. How many of those spells will actually get cast by a battle caster? Very few, as I can say from experience.

Further, the oracle will be able to spam the Heal spell, greatly increasing his and his parties survivability. Most clerics will have two of these a day at most. The oracle will be able to dump a dozen of these out if necessary. This will more than overcome any healing benefits from channel energy (especially for a battle cleric where Charisma is a tertiary stat at best).

Finally, thanks to the change to quicken spell in pathfinder, the oracle gets an even more significant boost in being able to decide as needed which of his spells to quicken. A cleric likely wouldn't prepare more than a couple quickened spells, and will be reluctant to prepare any mid level spells as quickened (such as divine power or righteous might). The oracle can decide on the fly which of his spells to quicken, so that he can drop a quickened Divine Power followed up with a Holy Aura. And he could do that several times a day. Most clerics won't be capable of doing that once (preferring to prepare higher level spells in those high level slots).

If he were focusing on a spellcasting character, I'd say cleric all the way, where the variety of spells available would be more important. But for a battle caster, he only needs a handful of spells. His spells should focus on three things: a) buffing himself for combat, b) buffing his allies for combat, and c) removing negative conditions from the party. (Healing is a given for both cleric and oracle, as both get that for free.) And as can be guessed, a) and b) overlap to a great extent. So the battle cleric really only needs to pick up the Heal spell, plus the regular buff spells, plus a handful of 'remove' spells.

I will agree that if party composition dictates, he should play a cleric instead. But I'd say this only applies if there is nobody in the party who is playing a cleric, druid, bard, wizard, or paladin. So if the only other caster in the party is a sorcerer, then yeah, the versatility of the cleric is needed. But if any other caster is available, then I think oracle will be the better choice for what he is trying to build.


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Sample Spells Known list for a battle oracle:

1: enlarge person (M), Cure Light wounds, Bless, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, Entropic Shield

2: Fog Cloud (M), Cure Moderate, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy, Status, Silence

3: Magic Vestment (M), Cure Serious, Invisibility Purge, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Prayer, Daylight

4: Cure Critical, Air Walk, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon

5: Mass Cure Light, Spell Resistance, Righteous Might, Breath of Life

6: Mass Cure Moderate, Heal, Harm

Notes: This is for caster level 13, and for not taking oracle past 8th lvl, so this would be at character levl 14. Thus, why there are no Mystery spells beyond 3rd level. Some of these choices would depend on the availability of magic items and what other casters in the party can do; this list is disregarding any other potential casters in the party.


Father Dale wrote:
Notes: This is for caster level 13, and for not taking oracle past 8th lvl, so this would be at character levl 14. Thus, why there are no Mystery spells beyond 3rd level. Some of these choices would depend on the availability of magic items and what other casters in the party can do; this list is disregarding any other potential casters in the party.

But Caster levels increases stack for spells known.

Humbly,
Yawar


Right, but not for the bonus Mystery spells. Going into a PRC out of Oracle will not grant the bonus spells gained from additional Oracle levels.


Father Dale wrote:
Right, but not for the bonus Mystery spells. Going into a PRC out of Oracle will not grant the bonus spells gained from additional Oracle levels.

Source please, I couldn't find anything that supports bonus spells from Mysteries or Bloodlines as an exception.

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:
Father Dale wrote:
Right, but not for the bonus Mystery spells. Going into a PRC out of Oracle will not grant the bonus spells gained from additional Oracle levels.

Source please, I couldn't find anything that supports bonus spells from Mysteries or Bloodlines as an exception.

Humbly,
Yawar

Bonus spells and spells known are NOT the same thing. Bonus spells are part of a separate class feature from spells known. See the Dragon Disciple's "Blood of Dragons" as an example of a Prestige Class specifically stating that it advances Bloodlines and grants the bonus spells from that Bloodline.


Zurai wrote:
Bonus spells and spells known are NOT the same thing. Bonus spells are part of a separate class feature from spells known. See the Dragon Disciple's "Blood of Dragons" as an example of a Prestige Class specifically stating that it advances Bloodlines and grants the bonus spells from that Bloodline.

Nope, it only states that it can't gain spells known above the highest level he can cast already.

However, the wording kinda gives the feeling that that might be the intention, but its nothing explicit.

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:
Nope, it only states that it can't gain spells known above the highest level he can cast already.

Read again.

Sorcerer Bloodlines wrote:

Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family’s past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 3–15. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
Dragon Disciple wrote:
Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.

The Bloodline class ability clearly states that the spells it grants are one of the powers of the Bloodline. Blood of Dragons clearly states that it stacks with sorcerer levels when determining Bloodline powers. This implies that "+1 level of an existing arcane spellcasting class" does not stack for Bloodline powers.

"Spells Known" refers specifically to the numbered charts for spontaneous spellcasting classes that refers to the number of spells they choose. It does not refer to Bloodline bonus spells, Mystery bonus spells, Curse bonus spells, or any other spells that are not linked to the Spells Known chart.


Zurai wrote:
The Bloodline class ability clearly states that the spells it grants are one of the powers of the Bloodline

True

Zurai wrote:
Blood of Dragons clearly states that it stacks with sorcerer levels when determining Bloodline powers.

True, but doesn't exclude caster leveles from adding to spells known through Bloodline. Only states that now you are ganining all the features of the Bloodline. Also it can be argued that spells known aren't powers and said powers are the features of the bloodline.

Zurai wrote:
Blood of Dragons clearly states that it stacks with sorcerer levels when determining Bloodline powers.

Partially true, this implies that "+1 level of an existing arcane spellcasting class" does not stack for ALL Bloodline powers (if you count spells as powers).

Zurai wrote:
"Spells Known" refers specifically to the numbered charts for spontaneous spellcasting classes that refers to the number of spells they choose.

I couldn't find a specific notation of this in the core or in d20pfsrd.com.

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:
I couldn't find a specific notation of this in the core or in d20pfsrd.com.

What, the boldface "SPELLS KNOWN" at the top of each such table isn't a specific notation?

When a class feature tells you to gain spells known, and you have a specific table titled "SPELLS KNOWN", why would you go hunting through other class features are not referenced by the spells known chart or the spells class feature nor reference them in return?


Zurai wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
I couldn't find a specific notation of this in the core or in d20pfsrd.com.

What, the boldface "SPELLS KNOWN" at the top of each such table isn't a specific notation?

When a class feature tells you to gain spells known, and you have a specific table titled "SPELLS KNOWN", why would you go hunting through other class features are not referenced by the spells known chart or the spells class feature nor reference them in return?

Yep, you are right. They even have been careful enough to avoid refering to the bonus spells as ¨spells known¨. I missed that detail.

They really should have put clearlier.

Humbly,
Yawar


First, thankyou very much for the build review, probably the most in depth write up feedback I've ever recieved, not just your build is good or your build sucks.

Father Dale wrote:

A couple more comments:

- I don't think the Exotic Weapon Proficiency is going to be worth it. Basically you would spend a feat to bump your weapon damage from a 1d6 to a 1d8. Thats an average of 1 pt of damage per swing; I wouldn't consider that worth a feat.

Now you will likely spend a good deal of your combats as large size, due to the enlarge person spell from your mystery, or from Righteous Might. That makes the weapon change from a 1d8 to a 2d6 weapon, which is an average difference of 2.5pts and probably worth the feat. HOWEVER, I think you would get much more damage output with Great Cleave rather than this feat. ESPECIALLY if you are large size and have a 10' threat range. Combat Reflexes would also be a solid feat choice that would likely result in more damage overall, although I imagine your dex won't be great.

The benefits of the feats that give an extra attack verses one that gives a slight boost to damage greatly increase as your overall damage goes up and your ability to take extra attacks goes up. See, lets say you are doing an average of 25 points of damage per swing (not an uncommon result after about lvl 5 or 6, don't know if you are intending to wield two handed or use a shield). Now, you could take the feat and get a boost of say 2.5 pts per hit. Or take Combat Reflexes or Great Cleave. Now for every one extra hit you land due to either of these feats, you need to hit a total of 10 times to match that extra damage and make the EWP feat worth it. This increases substantially as your damage goes up with levels, due to strength increases, power attack increases, and weapon enhancement increases. If you are doing an average of 50 points of damage, then you'd need to hit an extra 20 times to account for the same damage output for every extra hit from Great Cleave or Combat Reflexes.

Damage Correction- the Great Scimitar from Sandstorm Does 2d6 damage (not 1d8) so the damage over straight scimitar is +3 perhit not +1, then fighting at Large Size makes it even better! Falchion could work but the feat is tied to the backstory fluff (Great Scimitar being and executioner's weapon- the char venerates Ragathiel- celestial patron of Vengence/Judgement.)

Combat Ref and Great Cleave are great ideas and if I could fit them in I would take at least 1. We might allow 2 flaws and was going to take Augment Healing and Toughness, but maybe Great Cleave and Combat Ref would be better? Augment Healing sounds real nice though (never played with the feat before though)

Father Dale wrote:

Great Scimitar suggets you want to use a shield too. Thats going to lead to spellcasting problems as both your hands will be occupied, whereas you can cast with no hinderance when wielding a two-handed weapon. If AC appears to be an issue, then get a buckler (you can enhance it with Magic Vestment if necessary) and take Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior. You'd take a -1 to attacks with a two-handed weapon while wearing the buckler, but would retain your shield's AC; you can also cast spells with the buckler hand, but in PF you would lose the buckler's AC for that round. Another option would be to retool the Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage for use with Pathfinder; it lets you use a weapon or similiar sized object to perform the somatic components of a spell, but it requires 5 ranks in Concentration so it would need to be reworked.

You could also just use a scimitar and carry a shield so you can decide in each combat depending on the situation whether wielding two handed or one-handed with a shield is best.

(I used Imp Buckler Defense with a character very similar to the one you are making. He was for a Dragonlance campaign and was a Mystic (wisdom based spontaneous divine spellcaster) with the War domain. It worked pretty well and kept his AC way up.

Imp Buckler Defense only works for TWF NOT THF. Besides Great Scimitar cannot be wielded in one hand even with EXP.

Father Dale wrote:
You have two critical feats listed, but you can only apply one of them at a time. The option to choose is nice of course, but it would be better to have feat choices you can use more often, rather than feats that you can never use together. I definitely prefer the staggering critical, as it can severely limit what your opponent can do in response.

I agree. Took Bleeding Crit as I wanted to do SOMETHING on a crit before 17 (I don't really qualify for anything good that early, BAB too low.) If there is a standout feat that would be better I'm listening.

Father Dale wrote:

Not sure if going past lvl 8 in Oracle is worth it. I like Oracle 8 and then straight into PRC till its done. The extra 4 levels of Oracle give you an extra 8 skill points, two extra spells known, an extra mystery (warsight in your case), and improved mystery effects (Greater WF, Greater Sunder, and the initiative benefits from War sight).

The extra levels of the PRC give 2 extra smites per day (really big since you are doing it based on the PF Paladin's smite evil), +1 BAB, Sanctify Martial Strike (weapon is good aligned and deals +1 or +1d4 extra damage vs evil), and the auto confirming crits when smiting (also really big considering a 15-20 crit range).

The Greater WF gets canceled out for the most part by the -1 BAB of the Oracle, so thats a wash. The extra spells known are Wall of Fire (practically useless to you) and Righteous Might (you'd take it anyways, but its free so its nice); thats OK but not super important. Greater Sunder is nice of course, but highly situational. The Biggest thing is the War Sight and its nice effects.

The lost BAB is big, even if overall its cancelled out by Greater WF. This pushes down your Power Attack increases (you'll get -4 PA at lvl 15) and your third iterative attack (at lvl 14) and your fourth attack (at lvl 19!)

However, your Smite damage is based on your FoR levels and not Oracle levels. To get the most of that you need the FoR levels, otherwise it becomes just an attack boost (and possibly a defense boost, but ring of protections or Shield of Faith will likely cancel out the AC boost for the most part). I'd particularly want the auto-confirming smites ASAP, since with the 15-20 crit range that becomes a very likely result.

Not quite True. The build still gets all the FOR nice things you mention, but 3 levels later. The only class things I miss out on are levels 9/10 of FOR which is 1 smite/day (chainsmite) and Holy martial strike. Now Chainsmite is awesome and it was a tough call. Holy Martial Strike is only av +6 damage and I'd have it on my weapon before 20 anyway.

If I went all the way in FOR I'd get 1 extra smite (the build already gets 6/day thanks to extra smite feat) BAB still equals +17 reguardless (but you do get the 4th attack 1 level earlier) and the Chainsmite ability, which is big. I'd also get +10 smite damage (currently getting +8)

I'd miss out on- Righteous Might, Wall of Fire (agree wall of fie is subpar, but Might is awesome and 5th level is comp packed for spells known when Spl Comp is allowed) Gtr Wpn Focus, Gtr Sunder (which stacks with Sunder evil item now that Gtr Sunder only adds to the attack roll), Warsight. Because of the spread out and multiple abilites gotten earlier I went with Oracle 12 instead (but I cried a little about not getting Chainsmite)

Father Dale wrote:
Otherwise I just don't see the point of taking the PRC, especially the one level dip at 9th and then 4 more levels of Oracle. Why dilute your already slowed down spellcasting for a free Magic Circle effect? Just go straight Oracle and be done with it.

I dipped the PRC at 9 not for the magic circle but for 3/smites per day (1class, 2feat). We agree smite is awesome, I was willing to drop 1 spell level for 3/day smite ownage (bugger all damage bonus but +5, or better with CHA item to Attack and AC is still great.

If you have any suggestions about the Flaws I'll certainly listen. I'll also replace Bleeding Crit but with what?
Flaw feats will likely be Augment Healing and Combat Reflexes and then I'll take Rolibar's Gambit instead of Bleeding Crit. Better? Great Cleave is nice but I can't take it till level 7 and there's no feat I'd swap for it after that. I need Servant of the Heavens for the PRC, extra smite, Quicken spell and Crit Focus are all better. So it's either Rolibar's Gambit or Great Cleave at level 15. Your View?

By the way, I'm not the only Healer. There is a Paladin in the party (who'll help out condition removal with mercies)

My ability scores are: (ability improvement in brackets)
STR 17 (18)
DEX 13 (14)
CON 13 (14)
INT 11
WIS 11 (12)
CHA 19, 17+2 for Human(20)

spellist is (including extras for Haunted Curse)
0- Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Create Water, Light, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Mending, Read Magic, Stabilize, Purify food and drink, Guidence

1- Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person, Doom (to be swapped for Protection from Evil), Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Bless (to be swapped for endure elements), Comprehend Languages

2- Cure Moderate Wounds, Fog Cloud, Levitate, Minor Image, Bull’s Strength (to swap for Zone of Truth), Shield Other, Silence, Eagle’s Splendor, Sound Burst (To be swapped for Lessor Restoration)

3- Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Vestment, Nauseating Breath, Mass Conviction, Knight’s Move, Mass Resist Energy

4- Cure Critical Wounds, Wall of Fire (to be swapped for assay spell resistance), Delay Death, Pancea, Recitation, Divine Power

5- Mass Cure Light Wounds, Righteous Might, Telekinesis, Righteous Wrath of the faithful, Breath of Life, Flame Strike ( to be swapped for Mass Curse of Ill fortune), Wall of Stone

6- Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Gtr Dispel Magic, Blade Barrier, Heal
7- Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Reverse Gravity, Gtr Restoration, Radiant Assault, Gtr Bestow Curse

8- Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Dimensional Lock, Brilliant Aura, Gtr Planar Ally

9- Miracle, Implosion

Spell suggestions are appreciated as well.


- I'm not sure where you get that the Great Scimitar does 2d6 for a medium creature? I'm staring at the entry in Sandstorm right now on p. 96 and it says 1d8 for a Medium creature. Theres also the Great Falchion that does 1d12 but is a two-handed weapon. (Text for Great Scimitar says it can be wielded as a Martial weapon in two hands, but needs the EWP feat to use it in one.) I'm thinking you meant the Great Falchion, which has a net avg. damage of 6.5 vs 5 for the regular Falchion which does 2d4. At large size these would go to 3d6 vs 2d6, which would grant an average damage increase of 3.5. In any event, I don't think the extra damage from these weapons is worth a feat for what is already a feat starved build. Again, consider how many times you'd have to hit in order to make up for a single extra attack

- On Improved Buckler Defense. I'll grant that this question was never settled by the Sage or anyone at Wizards, but general consensus was that it worked with THW as well as TWF.

The reason you keep the AC bonus is due to an either/or proposition. The feat says "When you attack with your weapon in your off-hand" you can keep the AC bonus from the buckler. The SRD entry for the Buckler includes the following: "You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so." It further states: "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round."

So the question is Does wielding a THW count as using a weapon in your off hand when dealing with a Buckler? If the answer is yes, then Imp Buckler Defense would work. If the answer is no, then you don't lose the AC bonus in the first place, since you only lose the AC bonus if "you use a weapon in your off hand." Since the answer is either yes or no, the result is that either a) you lose the AC bonus when using a buckler with a THW, but can take the feat to retain the AC bonus, or b) you don't lose the AC bonus and don't need the feat anyways.

Most people went with a) strictly for balance reasons, since it made THW even better than TWF and required TWF to spend yet another feat to keep up with the THW. But a strict reading of the feat and buckler description would result in b) being correct.

- Augment healing is very good. However, its benefits are most visible with the mass cure spells, which you won't get for free since you are branching out into the PRC. Although if you take Oracle to 12 you will get Mass Cure Light and Moderate for free. Its probably not worth it if you are mostly going to cast lvl 1-4 healing spells though. But when a Mass Cure Light gets an extra 10pts of healing per target, then the extra healing starts to add up. This worked extraordinarily well with Empowered versions of the spell, as it would grant a net of +15 healing per target with Mass Cure Light. (It was clear empower worked that way in 3.5 and was confirmed by designers; designers for PF are suggesting otherwise even though the text is the same.) It made Empowered Mass Cure Light spells an effective weapon against undead, especially incorporeal undead since there was no miss chance against them.

- I'd really try to squeeze in Combat Casting. Your concentration checks will take a hit already for the lost caster level, and its no longer a sure thing to make your concentration checks to cast defensively. I'd definitely take it before Augment Healing.

Just to point out...how often will the extra healing from Augment Healing prevent a PC death or TPK? Not very often, if ever. How about failing a concentration check to get off a much needed Heal or Breath of Life? Yeah...

- Given your Dex, Combat Reflexes probably won't be worth it. Especially when considering that with large size (from either Enlarge Person or Righteous Might your dex will drop by 2). Thus with Combat Reflexes you'd only get at most one extra AoO when large sized, which is when you would benefit most from the feat. I probably wouldn't even bother with increasing dex past 13 for this reason. Although if it seems likely that you would get Mithral Full Plate and dex boosting items or spells consistently then Combat Reflexes would be fantastic, as it WILL come into play often with you being large size quite often. (I can say this from experience having played both divine and arcane melee casters who would often be large size.)

I definitely like Combat Reflexes with a decent dex score (14 or better when large sized) for your build more so than either Cleave or even Great Cleave (given that you can only cleave with a standard action and not a full attack, and the targets must be adjacent). So it really depends on how good your dex can be and whether you can get mithral full plate to make it worthwhile. But it does start to tread into MAD, as you already want good Cha, Str and Con.

Robilar's Gambit is extremely good as well, but of course you need the decent dex to make use of it. I think Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit is way better then Cleave or Great Cleave, provided you have the dex to make use of it. Especially since you don't have to give up full attacks to make use of it like you would with Cleave/Great Cleave. I'd put this combo above the Crit Focus and critical feats as well. Extra attacks are always better.

- On spell selections:

1: Protection from Evil is unnecessary since you'll have the free Magic Circle effect. Also, Holy Aura at 8th lvl is probably the best spell you can have and more then duplicates the effects of this spell. I'd keep bless and pick up Endure Elements instead of Doom or PfE. Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, and Bless are the important ones to have. Remove Fear is very handy as well, even with the Paladin in the party; I've seen fear effects muck up a party quicker than anything, especially at lower levels. I also like Resurgence.

2: I probably wouldn't bother with Bulls strength or Eagles Splendor. Items will eventually make these spells less useful. Get a wand if you really want them available. Status is extremely handy, especially if you are the party healer; I've seen this spell be the difference between a party member being dead and lost forever and surviving more than once. Other good spells at this level from 3.5 sourcebooks are Quick March, Divine Insight, Close Wounds and Stabilize. Quick March less so if Haste will be a likely constant.

3: Solid choices all around. I'd probably take either Blindisght, Daylight, Invisibility Purge, or Mass Align Weapon before Nauseating Breath. Thats a good spell, but it treads into the offensive spell category which you shouldn't be worrying about.

4: You can't swap out Wall of Fire since its a mystery spell. In any event, Assay Resistance won't be that useful to you since you should mostly have buff and healing spells; SR shouldn't be a big concern for you, and certainly not worth a precious spell known to make the handful of offensive spells land better against the handful of opponents that might resist it. Don't overlook Freedom of Movement, its one of the most key spells out there; having this as a spontaneous caster can make or break many encounters especially against big grappling foes. I'd take FoM before Panacea or Recitation, since Panacea gets duplicated by Heal. Also with Recitation, you are going to start running into having too many round per level and minuter per level buffs to have them all useable without spending an entire combat buffing. Air Walk is also very handy to have. Alco check out Celestial Brilliance from Book of Exalted Deeds; its a souped up version of daylight that harms undead and evil outsiders each round.

5: If haste is likely to be available then I'd avoid Righteous Wrath. The bonuses are nice, but again you start running into too many round per levels spells for them to be optimal. Also consider Zone of Revelation (if you don't have invisibility purge). My battle caster (like the one you are putting together here) used Swift Etherealness to great effect; not only could he pass through barriers, but it could be used to give him a safe round to Heal himself or buff if he got into trouble.

6: Good spells. Check out Stone Body, it provides DR and a buttload of immunities, perfect for a battle caster. Energy Immunity is good too.

7: Holy Word Holy Word Holy Word. Best offensive cleric spell available. Much better than Grtr Bestow Curse. Radiant Assault is a great spell. Also Mass Spell Resistance since you aren't taking SR with your lvl 5 spells.

8: Holy Aura is probably the best 8th lvl spell for a cleric. Greater Planar Ally is too situational for a spell known slot; just use Miracle to duplicate it. Same can be said for a lot of potential spells a this level, as the list is pretty thin. Mass Death Ward is pretty good too, even if it doesn't grant the immunity to death effects it does still provide immunity to level drain and negative energy effects.

9: Miracle is first of course. I like Energy Drain or Mass Heal better than Implosion. Implosion requires concentration to use, and that means you wouldn't be able to cast any other spells (even quickened ones) or make any attacks while you use it. Gate is also good for a spontaneous caster just for the Interplanar Travel as that doesn't cost any cash to do; its also nice to have the option of dropping a ton of cash to get a badass ally when needed.

Glad I can help. I've played this type of character before and it was quite fun, so I enjoy talking about it.


Father Dale wrote:
Implosion requires concentration to use, and that means you wouldn't be able to cast any other spells (even quickened ones) or make any attacks while you use it.

Concentrating on a spell is a standard action. I'm not sure where it says that you can't do other things after spending that standard action.

Examples:

1. You could take an AOO.
2. A choker could take a standard action to concentrate then take a full round action (via that silly quickness ability)
3. You could cast a swift/immediate action spell in the same round as concentrating.
4. You can move with your move action while concentrating as your standard.
5. You could do any sort of free actions while concentrating (activate boots of speed).
6. You could duck in the saddle when being attacked while concentrating.
7. You could roll skill checks while concentrating (knowledge on monsters, perception checks, acobatics checks, etc).

-James


You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. See p. 216 of the CRB.

This would include swift/immediate spells, although you could cast such a spell in the same round before casting implosion; still, you wouldn't be able to do so in subsequent rounds without losing the implosion spell.

The point is that for a battle caster like the OC is making, his bread and butter is casting spells and doing melee attacks. Implosion takes that away and focuses on things he shouldn't be worrying about: save DCs and SR. Single target Save or Die spells are not what a battle caster should be using, especially a spontaneous caster with limited spells known.

It wasn't a very good spell in 3.5, and its even worse now. If he really wants to do a Save or Die, he'd be better just using Miracle to duplicate Finger of Death--that at least provides for damage on a successful save--or Final Rebuke--which dazes the subject on a successful save.

The selling point of Implosion--the ability to concentrate on the spell to use it in subsequent rounds--goes against everything his build is made for.


Father Dale,

My Bad- I did mean great Falchion, as for dex and Combat Ref it will be 13 +1 natural then add +6 Belt of Physical Perfection, with Mithral Full plate (we run high magic so items aren't a problem)

Final Feats are
Mystery, Curse (Haunted), Orisons, Skill at Arms, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Combat Casting

Spell, EWP: Great Falchion, weapon mastery (focus: Great Falchion)

Spell, Extend Spell

Spell, Manuvere Mastery- Improved Sunder, Servant of the heavens
Improved Crit: Great Falchion
Magic Circle, Smite Evil 1/day (good aligned), Extra Smiting
Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell, War Sight
Critical Focus, Gtr Weapon Focus: Great Falchion, Gtr Sunder

Smite Evil 2/day (confirming), Rolibar’s Gambit
Sanctify Martial Strike
Smite 3/day (holy), Staggering Critical
Sunder Evil Item
Smite Evil 4/day (fiendsmite), Leap Attack

Rolibar's taken as early as I can get it.
Combat Casting at Level 1 (I really wanted Augment Heal but you make a good point+ wands of low heals are cheap)

will re-read your spell suggestions and get back to you....

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