I'm thinking about having an axebeak as a mount for my cavalier once he reaches 4th level. When charging on a mount and making use of ride by attack, does your mount get to make an attack as well?
I am imagining it getting nasty with the axebeak's sudden charge where some poor critter gets lanced by me then bitten, and tripped all from 10 feet away during a charge. Is that the way it would work?
Look at the "Trample" feat. It's written assuming a horse mount and a hoof attack, but it should easily be adapted to an axebeak and a bite attack instead.
Rule 1: If there's already a rule for what you want to do, don't invent another one. ;)
I would imagine that the mount itself would need an appropriate feat in addition to the rider. Thus, you could probably train it.
That said, there are a couple problems with this scenario:
1) When using a Ride-by Attack the rider probably wants to double-move the mount so that at both the start and finish of the attack they remain outside the move & attack range of the target; as a result, the mount does not have a Standard action available for an attack;
2) Axe-beaks are not "sniping" predators naturally, and would need specific training to perform such a maneuver;
3) The ideal Ride-by Attack is performed with a Reach weapon so that the target cannot hold a Readied Action to tag you; unless the mount also has Reach it cannot attack anyway;
4) Since the Ride-by Attack requires that you turn away at the last moment, a tug on the reins is needed to divert the mount just when it would be looking to make its attack (sure, there is that low DC "guide a mount with your knees" check taking all sense of realism out of the equation).
All that said, I'd still say the mount needs a feat if I were the DM. I'd probably let a wise PC choose (or better yet have a sage, groom or professional advise the choice) a "superior specimen" of the species that will become Advanced one stage, thus allowing it a bonus feat for the PC to train. Of course, the appropriate Effective Level modifier needs to be applied as well, since it's no longer a base mount. I'd then have it "ride the PC's coat-tails" as far as XP and HD increases until it Advances enough to gain a feat.
FWIW,
Rez
Well I'd be using it as a cavalier so it would get feats anyway.
Ride-by attack specifically states that you're using the charge action, moving then attacking as if with a standard charge, then moving again continuing in the straight line of the charge. You're not jerking the reins away.
Also, according to the bonus bestiary, axebeaks have 10 ft. reach.
Trample doesn't really cover what I'm trying to do. I just want to make sure that in the ride-by attack charge, my mount gets to attack as well.
Look at the "Trample" feat. It's written assuming a horse mount and a hoof attack, but it should easily be adapted to an axebeak and a bite attack instead.
Rule 1: If there's already a rule for what you want to do, don't invent another one. ;)
It wouldn't be doing the same thing; the rider doesn't get to attack when doing an overrun, as far as I know.
It wouldn't be doing the same thing; the rider doesn't get to attack when doing an overrun, as far as I know.
I see what you're getting at: you want the rider and mount to attack the same target simultaneously; not have the mount attack someone you're running over and then the rider attacking someone else (and looking at the RAW, it seems like Trample won't actually do that, either).
What if you've got the Greater Overrun feat? "Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun." Then you could, I suppose, overrun someone, have the mount attack them, and possibly also attack them yourself... but if the overrun itself prevents your attacking afterwards, that's pretty well a useless investiture of feats.
Hmmm. The mounted combat rules seem to contain some unwieldy glitches.
I asked a similar thing on what would happen if my mount has spring attack, and general consensus was no AoO would be provoked and both myself and the mount would be able to attack.
I see no reason why it should not be able to make its attack against the target, just like a standard mounted charge.
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I see what you're getting at: you want the rider and mount to attack the same target simultaneously
Hmmm. The mounted combat rules seem to contain some unwieldy glitches.
A rider and his mount are considered to occupy the same space. The mount acts on the rider's initiative count, at the rider's command. If the mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack (rather than a full attack), because you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking. But if you're charging, you're not that concerned about full attacks anyway. And the Axe Beak "sudden charge" ability specifically says it goes off on a charge.
I'm not actually seeing any reason why rider and mount would NOT get to attack the same target simultaneously, using Ride-By Attack. You'd certainly need to make the DC 25 Handle Animals check and spend six weeks training it for combat, but after that, the rules seem pretty clear that this is a valid trick.
I guess the biggest problem is actually finding an axe-beak, as you're only going to find mount-capable Phorusrhacidae on Golarion in the same places you're going to find other in-this-world-extinct megafauna.
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I see what you're getting at: you want the rider and mount to attack the same target simultaneously
Hmmm. The mounted combat rules seem to contain some unwieldy glitches.
A rider and his mount are considered to occupy the same space. The mount acts on the rider's initiative count, at the rider's command. If the mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack (rather than a full attack), because you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking. But if you're charging, you're not that concerned about full attacks anyway. And the Axe Beak "sudden charge" ability specifically says it goes off on a charge.
I'm not actually seeing any reason why rider and mount would NOT get to attack the same target simultaneously, using Ride-By Attack. You'd certainly need to make the DC 25 Handle Animals check and spend six weeks training it for combat, but after that, the rules seem pretty clear that this is a valid trick.
I guess the biggest problem is actually finding an axe-beak, as you're only going to find mount-capable Phorusrhacidae on Golarion in the same places you're going to find other in-this-world-extinct megafauna.
ditto. I don't see anything in the rules that says your mount forfeits it's attacks when mounted. Since the mount acts on your initiative I see no problem in the maneuver as described.
ditto. I don't see anything in the rules that says your mount forfeits it's attacks when mounted. Since the mount acts on your initiative I see no problem in the maneuver as described.I'm not actually seeing any reason why rider and mount would NOT get to attack the same target simultaneously, using Ride-By Attack. You'd certainly need to make the DC 25 Handle Animals check and spend six weeks training it for combat, but after that, the rules seem pretty clear that this is a valid trick.
I guess the biggest problem is actually finding an axe-beak, as you're only going to find mount-capable Phorusrhacidae on Golarion in the same places you're going to find other in-this-world-extinct megafauna.
The issue is that the Ride-By Attack feat says "you" can do a special charge where you move-attack-move. It doesn't say your mount can do that. Of course it doesn't say your mount can't do it, but "it doesn't say I can't!" is usually a pretty lame argument, IMO.
Um. It says "you" make a charge attack, but your mount's the one doing the actual charging. You use your mount's movement to calculate the distance for the charge. You get the charge bonus because you've got the same momentum as the mount.
If you make a standard mounted charge, both you and your mount can attack at the end of it. Since ride-by attack is a variation of the standard mounted charge I'd say there's a pretty good argument that the mount should be able to attack as well.
I'm hoping someone can find something concrete to decide one way or the other.
Um. It says "you" make a charge attack, but you're mount's the one doing the actual charging. You use your mount's movement to calculate the distance for the charge. You get the charge bonus because you've got the same momentum as the mount.
If you make a standard mounted charge, both you and your mount can attack at the end of it. Since ride-by attack is a variation of the standard mounted charge I'd say there's a pretty good argument that the mount should be able to attack as well.
It's plausible, but the rules for mounted combat are pretty hazy. Just think -- Wizards of the Coast did a 5-part (!) "Rules of the Game" series on mounts on their web site, to try to clarify matters.
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The issue is that the Ride-By Attack feat says "you" can do a special charge where you move-attack-move. It doesn't say your mount can do that. Of course it doesn't say your mount can't do it, but "it doesn't say I can't!" is usually a pretty lame argument, IMO.ditto. I don't see anything in the rules that says your mount forfeits it's attacks when mounted. Since the mount acts on your initiative I see no problem in the maneuver as described.I'm not actually seeing any reason why rider and mount would NOT get to attack the same target simultaneously, using Ride-By Attack. You'd certainly need to make the DC 25 Handle Animals check and spend six weeks training it for combat, but after that, the rules seem pretty clear that this is a valid trick.
I guess the biggest problem is actually finding an axe-beak, as you're only going to find mount-capable Phorusrhacidae on Golarion in the same places you're going to find other in-this-world-extinct megafauna.
Well "You" are not charging or moving at all, your mount is. "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." The mount uses ITS action to move. Does the action allow an attack? If yes, then the mount gets to attack. The mount uses standard rules as far as I know. I have never seen any special rules that says that an animal acting as a mount forfeits its attack actions and can only move. Until I see a rule spelled out that says that I will treat the mount as any other character and use normal rules.
Somehow I don't buy the argument that there are special unpublished rules somewhere that prevents a mount from acting as a normal creature in combat. IMO :)
Somehow I don't buy the argument that there are special unpublished rules somewhere that prevents a mount from acting as a normal creature in combat. IMO :)
But now we go around in a circle again: What is the rule that allows a "normal creature in combat" to move, then attack, and then move again, all as part of a charge?
NOTE: I'm not saying that one interpretation or the other is correct, because I don't think the rules are clear enough to be correct or incorrect in the first place...
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But now we go around in a circle again: What is the rule that allows a "normal creature in combat" to move, then attack, and then move again, all as part of a charge?
OH, I see what you're saying
Ride-By Attack assumes that the mount is not attacking as part of this feat, meant to represent riding by and slashing with your sword, Cossack-style. But with this scenario, you're barreling down with a lance, the bird bites and trips, and then you run away, presumably over the downed enemy.
Huhm. In that particular case, it would seem the Axe-Beak would ALSO need Move-By Attack, otherwise it would have to stop when it attacks. Again, it's covered by the existing rules, although some of the assumptions in the Ride-By Attack feat do cause problems when you go with special mounts.
A kind DM might allow it to be a "trick" taught to a Combat Trained mount.
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Somehow I don't buy the argument that there are special unpublished rules somewhere that prevents a mount from acting as a normal creature in combat. IMO :)But now we go around in a circle again: What is the rule that allows a "normal creature in combat" to move, then attack, and then move again, all as part of a charge?
NOTE: I'm not saying that one interpretation or the other is correct, because I don't think the rules are clear enough to be correct or incorrect in the first place...
I agree the rules are not crystal clear at all.
But the rule that allows normal creatures to move, attack then move again is a feat called Ride-By Attack:
"Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack."
Now, it states you may attack as if with a standard charge. Under Charge the rules for attacks say: "After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn." Now, the mount is obviously charging... Charge allows a charging character (mounts included as characters again unless there are special rules I am not aware of that differentiate characters) to make an attack.
There are two characters charging in this scenario. They use the same initiative and movement, but no where does it say they use the same attack. Since they do not share the same attack we default to regular rules, and both characters get an attack.
I am not aware of any special rules that differentiate characters into types that get to make attacks and those that do not. Nor have I come across a rule that says that charging characters may not attack.
The difference between our views is that I am defaulting right back to the rules. It seems to me that you are "adding" a rule that I cannot find (a houserule perhaps?).
But agreed, it is not crystal clear, and to reach my opinion I had to flip to several different rules to read what they said, look for exceptions (and finding none) I see that the normal rule for charging applies to the mount as well as I can find nothing that says it does not. Since I cannot find anything that says the mount is charging but does not get an attack I default to the normal charging rule that charging gives you an attack. Hence, the PC and mount are both charging when using Ride-By Attack and they both get an attack as per Charge, and then may continue to move in a straight line as per Ride-By Attack.
There you have it, clear as mud! lol But if there is no rule that says a mount gives up its attack, then it does not give up its attack and gets to make its attack.
See... celar as mud! lol
That's how I see it, Krome.
Here's another question. How much time does it take for an axebeak to mature enough to carry a medium creature? The bestiary mentions 2 months from the egg being laid to hatching and another two from hatch to being able to hunt for it's own food. How long before it's large sized?
I ask because I'm thinking of getting myself a male and female and starting to breed them.
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There are two characters charging in this scenario. They use the same initiative and movement, but no where does it say they use the same attack. Since they do not share the same attack we default to regular rules, and both characters get an attack.
However, very explicitly in the rules for charging it says that you must move before your attack, not after. That's why Ride-By Attack exists. However, and I haven't read the Cavalier rules so correct me if I'm wrong, nowhere does it say that a mount shares feats with its rider. If the mount charges and attacks, it stops. It has to stop. That's how charges work without that feat. I guess the rider can keep flying off into space after the mount stops, but it seems a bit silly.
I am not aware of any special rules that differentiate characters into types that get to make attacks and those that do not. Nor have I come across a rule that says that charging characters may not attack.
There is no general rule saying that charging mounts may not attack, just as there is no general rule saying that charging mounts can move, attack, and then move again. There is a special rule called "Ride-By Attack" that specifically states that a charging rider can do such a thing, however.
Huhm. In that particular case, it would seem the Axe-Beak would ALSO need Move-By Attack, otherwise it would have to stop when it attacks.
My first thought would be that the Axe-Beak would need the Spring Attack feat, but I'm still not sure that would work. (I don't think there's a feat called Move-By Attack.)
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My first thought would be that the Axe-Beak would need the Spring Attack feat, but I'm still not sure that would work. (I don't think there's a feat called Move-By Attack.)
You're correct that D&D doesn't have a Move-by Attack (I think Mutants and Masterminds might be where I'm getting it from), but, yeah, Spring Attack would be the way to go. Spring Attack for the bird, Ride-By Attack for the rider.