What polymorph forms allow you to retain spellcasting?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I cast elemental body, can I still cast spells?

What forms, outside of humanoids and dragons, might allow me to retain my ability to cast spells?


Some magical beasts have humanoid(ish) hands.


You need a form with the ability to speak if you want to cast spells with a Verbal component.

You need a form with fine manual dexterity if you want to cast spells with a Somatic component.

You need a form other than animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin in order to cast a spell with a Material or Focus component without Eschew Materials.


Zurai wrote:

You need a form with the ability to speak if you want to cast spells with a Verbal component.

You need a form with fine manual dexterity if you want to cast spells with a Somatic component.

You need a form other than animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin in order to cast a spell with a Material or Focus component without Eschew Materials.

I think dragon is ok, after all dragons can cast spells, they can certainly speak, i dont see why dragon form would prevent you from doing so.

Shadow Lodge

Kolokotroni wrote:
Zurai wrote:

You need a form with the ability to speak if you want to cast spells with a Verbal component.

You need a form with fine manual dexterity if you want to cast spells with a Somatic component.

You need a form other than animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin in order to cast a spell with a Material or Focus component without Eschew Materials.

I think dragon is ok, after all dragons can cast spells, they can certainly speak, i dont see why dragon form would prevent you from doing so.

I read somewhere in some Paizo product (don't recall which one) that dragons have their own ways of casting, so I'm not sure that their shapeshifted form would retain that capability. Additionally, I was under the impression Dragons were sorcerers and therefore had eschew materials due to their nature as casters.


MisterSlanky wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Zurai wrote:

You need a form with the ability to speak if you want to cast spells with a Verbal component.

You need a form with fine manual dexterity if you want to cast spells with a Somatic component.

You need a form other than animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin in order to cast a spell with a Material or Focus component without Eschew Materials.

I think dragon is ok, after all dragons can cast spells, they can certainly speak, i dont see why dragon form would prevent you from doing so.
I read somewhere in some Paizo product (don't recall which one) that dragons have their own ways of casting, so I'm not sure that their shapeshifted form would retain that capability. Additionally, I was under the impression Dragons were sorcerers and therefore had eschew materials due to their nature as casters.

Well eschew materials you need anyway, as you dont have your component pouch anymore, but i was talking about dragons being sufficient for verbal and somatic components, sorcerors still need to fit those 2 requirements, so dragons have to be able to do that. Certainly they can talk, so verbal is gauranteed, the only questionable part is the somatic components, but they have to be able to fill those for their own spells.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Zurai wrote:

You need a form with the ability to speak if you want to cast spells with a Verbal component.

You need a form with fine manual dexterity if you want to cast spells with a Somatic component.

You need a form other than animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin in order to cast a spell with a Material or Focus component without Eschew Materials.

I think dragon is ok, after all dragons can cast spells, they can certainly speak, i dont see why dragon form would prevent you from doing so.

I listed dragons only in the Material component section, because any Transmutation (polymorph) spell that changes you into a dragon also merges your gear with your form, making your component pouch inaccessible. It's well established that dragons are capable of both the Verbal and Somatic components of spells, as every True Dragon of a certain age (Young Adult?) or higher can cast spells and they certainly aren't limited to non-Somatic spells.


Zurai wrote:
I listed dragons only in the Material component section, because any Transmutation (polymorph) spell that changes you into a dragon also merges your gear with your form, making your component pouch inaccessible. It's well established that dragons are capable of both the Verbal and Somatic components of spells, as every True Dragon of a certain age (Young Adult?) or higher can cast spells and they certainly aren't limited to non-Somatic spells.

So toss that component pouch to the ground or let a buddy hold it while you assume the position. Shouldn't be much of a hindrance.


Robert Young wrote:
Zurai wrote:
I listed dragons only in the Material component section, because any Transmutation (polymorph) spell that changes you into a dragon also merges your gear with your form, making your component pouch inaccessible. It's well established that dragons are capable of both the Verbal and Somatic components of spells, as every True Dragon of a certain age (Young Adult?) or higher can cast spells and they certainly aren't limited to non-Somatic spells.
So toss that component pouch to the ground or let a buddy hold it while you assume the position. Shouldn't be much of a hindrance.

If the new form isn't the same size and general shape as the original form, the pouch isn't going to be wearable, and you can't take an object from a container you aren't wearing/holding as part of the action to cast a spell. That means spells are going to be full-round actions at a minimum and impossible if your DM isn't generous.

Removing the pouch also takes time, which means it's not useful for in-combat polymorphing.


Zurai wrote:
Robert Young wrote:
Zurai wrote:
I listed dragons only in the Material component section, because any Transmutation (polymorph) spell that changes you into a dragon also merges your gear with your form, making your component pouch inaccessible. It's well established that dragons are capable of both the Verbal and Somatic components of spells, as every True Dragon of a certain age (Young Adult?) or higher can cast spells and they certainly aren't limited to non-Somatic spells.
So toss that component pouch to the ground or let a buddy hold it while you assume the position. Shouldn't be much of a hindrance.

If the new form isn't the same size and general shape as the original form, the pouch isn't going to be wearable, and you can't take an object from a container you aren't wearing/holding as part of the action to cast a spell. That means spells are going to be full-round actions at a minimum and impossible if your DM isn't generous.

Removing the pouch also takes time, which means it's not useful for in-combat polymorphing.

Besides there is a certain difficulty in believing a Huge dragon's claw can remove a bit of bat guano from a human sized pouch.

Dark Archive

I know that this isn't Pathfinder specific, so please don't yell at me for pointing out that the 3.5 FAQ addressed this kind of question (in a round about way).

The FAQ wrote:

"Chapter 10 in the PH says a spellcaster must have one
hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component, and the
caster must have any material components in hand already
if he doesn’t have a free hand. So, how does a creature like
a naga cast spells at all? Nagas don’t have hands!

Spoiler:
Creatures that have hands need at least one free hand to
cast spells with somatic or material components (or both).
Creatures, that don’t have hands don’t need hands to cast
spells (see page 315 in the MM). They use body movements to
complete somatic components and use material components
either by touching them (but not if they’re in another creature’s
possession) or by having them somewhere on their bodies. A
naga might carry material components stuck to its scales or
even temporarily swallow them."

Now the question is, does a human wizard polymorphing into a Naga know how to use the body movements of his new form to complete the somatic component?

This also seems to imply that material and focus components only need to be on your person. Meaning the spell component pouch may not be as much of a problem. *

YMMV

Cheers

*EDIT: Pathfinder Core (pg. 212) covers polymorphing and spell components, including material, verbal and somatic. This of course would trump the FAQ I quoted above. :)

Zurai has it pretty much nailed...


Giant (and Alter self) is about the only one that allows it by default. Dragon works with Eschew.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I was GM, I would allow a polymorphed character to continue casting spells if the base form (1) could fullfill all the components, or (2) could cast spells naturally (such as a dragon, drider, naga, or rhakshasa). The latter would still have to have material components or the Eschew Materials feat though.

That seems like a good rule of thumb to me.


if you are a sorceror elemental will work fine.

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