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I am a Dm of an Eberron campaign that is on-going and I have a situation. The group’s paladin had caught a spy that was ease dropping on as storyline. The paladin had subdued the spy and later awoke tied to a chair. The Paladin said tell me what you know or I am going to leave you in the room with him {ref to CN ranger who prides off hurting other's I think he needs to adjust alignment =)}
I have a slight issue and not sure if I should. The paladin had threatened the spy who he had no evidence was any more evil then a begger stealing for family, with death. He told the spy, “If you don’t tell me I am going to leave the room and not protect you from the crazy lunatic.”
Now game wise this was not a bluff they did not due this as a scare tactic if the ranger would have got to him he was going to ‘CUT HIM IN HALF’
I don’t feel completely comfortable about the paladin’s threat. What do you think?
I would have the Paladin's deity give him a very stern warning, and loss of Paladin powers (smite, + to saves, spells, etc) for one day and let him know that another infraction and he would be an ex-Paladin.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Edit: Yup, lose his powers for a *day*. What Caineach said...
Edit2: This is what I would do in *my* game.
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Well, since it was not a bluff and he was actually going to do it if the captive didn't talk, it wasn't a lie. No bending of the code there.
And since I assume the man talked, he didn't let his companion kill the captive. So no breaking the code there.
When he actually performs an evil act, then it would be a problem.
Edit: Wow, right to losing powers for that?
You may be about to get a flame war. The past couple of hese Paladin code threads have been. In the end, the choice is yours, and you seem to think he stepped over the line. I would make sure your player knows this.
I think the Paladin is operating outside his code of honor. These threats of violence are a form of torture, and not really a good act at all. Justice should be brought to the spy, and the penalty may very well be death. But then death should be dealt in a swift and merciful manner, not by turning it over to a man who will enjoy drawing it out. And if the Paladin isn't honorable and courageous enough to cary out a death sentance himself, how far has he fallen?
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I agree with Caineach that you should talk to your player about it. Make sure he absolutely understands how you view the paladin code. But don't fall on him like a ton of bricks until you know for certain he is pushing the boundaries intentionally.
What we say means little. What you and your player agree upon as the rules of the code at your table is the only thing that matters.
Just playing advocate of the devil, I have to say that the Eberron Campaign is very particular, since it has 'shades of gray' and not 'black and white' morals. This is a world, for example, where 'Alignment: Always XX' doesn't exist - you can just as easily find a NG Vampire or a CE Silver Dragon instead of a CE Vampire or a LG Silver Dragon, for example (by RAW of the setting). Druidic magic which saved the world from an outerworldly invasion eons ago was taught by Vvaraak the Black Dragon to the Gatekeeper Orcs, for example.
Deities do not make Clerics lose their spells - as far as the Campaign Setting says, deities could not even exist at all (some Clerics cast spells despite following a faith whose god is not divine at all, like the Blood of Vol or the Disciples of the Lord of Blades). A Cleric can cast spells with ANY alignment descriptor without fear of losing them; the only thing is, a Cleric who keeps casting evil spells would eventually become evil, a Cleric who keeps casting good spells would eventually become good, and so on.
Most Clerics of the Silver Flame for example (the paramount LG cult of the campaign setting) are in truth ruthless zealots, and one of the most powerful High Cardinals is a LE manipulator who considers the nation of Thrane (where the cult is at home) his personal kingdom; the cult itself has a huge stain in the Lycanthrope Purge that was declared a couple of centuries ago, where innocent Shifters were slaughtered as well, believed to be plague-bearers as well, and the Lycanthrope were made almost completely extinct. A genocide made from a LG cult in the name of the safety of the other races...
Now, in such a world, I would allow a Paladin to make such a non-bluff threat to a spy without requiring an atonement later - of course, on a case-by-case situation. Since in the upcoming Advanced Player Guide we will have rules for non-LG Paladins (and in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana there are similar rules - Paladins of Freedom, Slaughter, adn Tyranny), if such acts become common, a shift in Alignment and conseguent change in powers could be indicated. But losing powers, even for Paladins, doesn't suit well in an Eberron Campaign at all.
Just my 2c.
This is a world, for example, where 'Alignment: Always XX' doesn't exist - you can just as easily find a NG Vampire or a CE Silver Dragon instead of a CE Vampire or a LG Silver Dragon, for example (by RAW of the setting).This is not unique to the setting. This is the case in the core rules, see 3.5 MM page 305.
No no, in the core rules, Always XX means that there are very, very rare circumstances where people won't be of that alignment.
Eberron removes the rarity. There are no inborn alignments at all, save for outsiders. Lycanthropes, dragons, etc, they can be any alignment. The nation that's vying most for peace is lead by a vampire king.
Edit: Oh, and even outsiders are up for grabs.
No no, in the core rules, Always XX means that there are very, very rare circumstances where people won't be of that alignment.Actually, it just says rare or unique. How you interpret that is up to you. That could be 10%, 1%, 0.1%, etc.
Eberron removes the rarity. There are no inborn alignments at all, save for outsiders. Oh, and even outsiders are up for grabs.Does it remove the rarity, or the alignment all together? Do all monsters just have "Alignment: Any"? Just curious, I've never played Eberron. If that is the case than that is different from core.
Lycanthropes, dragons, etc, they can be any alignment.That is already the case in the core rules.
The nation that's vying most for peace is lead by a vampire king.Which is technically allowed by the core rules as well, so what's the big deal?
Again, in core rules, having an outsider or dragon who strays from their alignment is "unique."
In Eberron, things are more grey. It's a very pulpy type world. Dragons of any color can and will be any alignment (I suppose that yes, "any" would go under their alignment). That's not to say alignment is gone. If anything, alignment is more interesting. You can't just detect evil and smite away. The clan of brutish orcs down in the nearby valley are druids that are keeping aberrations away. The gold dragon you see flying towards you has noticed you play an important role in their prophecy - one they don't want to be fulfilled.
Again, in the core rules, "Always _____" means something that isn't of that alignment is rare to the point of being unique. In Eberron, that's life in the big city, where the goblins run shops and the elves want to start a world war because they just like fighting.
Very good information and thank you for all of your input I believe i will be able to approch the situation with more confidence when discussing the code witht he player.
A few other helpful things.
"Detect Evil" can tell if the spy IS more evil than your local beggar.
While a Paladin wouldn't torture someone herself, she might allow some sort of coercion to save the lives of innocents...
But it is a grey line.
I think threats and such would be OK. It also depends a bit on which god she worships.
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In my eyes, the Paladin missed out on an oportunity. If I were him, I'd make it look bad for the ease dropper. Tell him that you were going to take him out in public and be friendly with him, make a show of rewarding him with a some gold and start passing the word about how nice a guy he was and how helpful he could be. Flatter him with every chance. I'd just not lie about anything.
Chances are that might just make the guy sweat enough to talk if he was more afraid of the people he worked for.
When playing in Eberron it pays off to have seen some film noir.
In the end this is about the dm and the player. Paladin means 100 different things to a thousand different people. Same goes for alignment. The paladin is the bigest issue though since he has a very strict 'code of conduct' and risks falling if he fails to uphold it.
The best and only answer for this is to (preferably before the game starts in the first place) sit down with your player and hash out what it means to be a paladin. Have them write out an actual code, approve it and then they have something to work from. It should lay out priorities, and what is important to the paladin, his order and his god. It will likely differ by deity.
Then ask them some moral questions, if you had a choice between striking down the evil doer or saving a single innocent which do you do? IE is preventing future evil more important then the immediate protection of innocent or visa versa? Decide as a group how willing you are for a paladin to bend or not bend the lines of deceit for instance. Consider order of the stick 214 and 215. Did the paladin cross a line? Was she lieing? Or was it merely good tactics? These are the kinds of things to A prevent accidental fallen paladins, as well as the lawful stupid that can drive us all crazy.
In the end this is about the dm and the player. Paladin means 100 different things to a thousand different people. Same goes for alignment. The paladin is the bigest issue though since he has a very strict 'code of conduct' and risks falling if he fails to uphold it.
The best and only answer for this is to (preferably before the game starts in the first place) sit down with your player and hash out what it means to be a paladin. Have them write out an actual code, approve it and then they have something to work from. It should lay out priorities, and what is important to the paladin, his order and his god. It will likely differ by deity.
Then ask them some moral questions, if you had a choice between striking down the evil doer or saving a single innocent which do you do? IE is preventing future evil more important then the immediate protection of innocent or visa versa? Decide as a group how willing you are for a paladin to bend or not bend the lines of deceit for instance. Consider order of the stick 214 and 215. Did the paladin cross a line? Was she lieing? Or was it merely good tactics? These are the kinds of things to A prevent accidental fallen paladins, as well as the lawful stupid that can drive us all crazy.
Very good advice.
As far as I am concerned if a Paladin "accidently" falls then as a DM I have failed to communicate what a Paladin is in my campaign to my players. That is unfair.Moral dilemmas should not be a trap. Just as you and I know what is right and wrong the Paladin's player should be made very clear from the off what is acceptable or not.
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I am a Dm of an Eberron campaign that is on-going and I have a situation. The group’s paladin had caught a spy that was ease dropping on as storyline. The paladin had subdued the spy and later awoke tied to a chair. The Paladin said tell me what you know or I am going to leave you in the room with him {ref to CN ranger who prides off hurting other's I think he needs to adjust alignment =)}
I have a slight issue and not sure if I should. The paladin had threatened the spy who he had no evidence was any more evil then a begger stealing for family, with death. He told the spy, “If you don’t tell me I am going to leave the room and not protect you from the crazy lunatic.”Now game wise this was not a bluff they did not due this as a scare tactic if the ranger would have got to him he was going to ‘CUT HIM IN HALF’
I don’t feel completely comfortable about the paladin’s threat. What do you think?
... Um, What's he done wrong here?
Words Are Not Actions. From what you've said, he hasn't actually let the CE ranger torture him.
On the other hand, he did just present him with an option, as part of the respect for free will, you can choose to talk to the paladin, or you can be killed.
What are the stakes involved, like are they expecting people to stop them from defeating the babyeating demon?
Was there a detect Evil attempt?