1) Unarmed strikes are now considered [Slam] natural attacks.
2) Any creature is proficient with its natural attack, except peaceful ones. Classes related to intensive studying (arcane) are not proficient.
3) Any creature belonging to a race who uses weapons regularly has to take the IUS feat to avoid AoO while fighting unarmed. Others are considered as having it.
4) Medium creatures with a [Slam] natural attack do 1d4 damage. Monks are trained to do more. Apply size modifications afterwards.
5) INA is available to everyone proficient with a natural attack. Its effect is a +1 size increment, as usual.
6) Hardened means of delivering unarmed attacks (gauntlets, knuckles dusters, or sorcerer claws, for instance), aren't considered weapons. They are considered as enhancements to natural weapons, and give a +1 size increment to damage, which doesn't stack itself or with INA. As a swift action, a Monk can pop a Ki point to harden their fists.
7) A creature uses either the iterative attacks offered by their BAB from their HD or class levels, or all its natural attack. A humanoid's natural attack sequence is only made of one [Slam] attack.
8) A Flurry of Blows can be made with any natural attack.
9) Multiattack only applies to "secondary" natural attacks made during a natural attack sequence, not during iterative attacks.
1) Unarmed strikes are now considered [Slam] natural attacks.
2) Any creature is proficient with its natural attack, except peaceful ones. Classes related to intensive studying (arcane) are not proficient.
3) Any creature belonging to a race who uses weapons regularly has to take the IUS feat to avoid AoO while fighting unarmed. Others are considered as having it.
4) Medium creatures with a [Slam] natural attack do 1d4 damage. Monks are trained to do more. Apply size modifications afterwards.
5) INA is available to everyone proficient with a natural attack. Its effect is a +1 size increment, as usual.
6) Hardened means of delivering unarmed attacks (gauntlets, knuckles dusters, or sorcerer claws, for instance), aren't considered weapons. They are considered as enhancements to natural weapons, and give a +1 size increment to damage, which doesn't stack itself or with INA. As a swift action, a Monk can pop a Ki point to harden their fists.
7) A creature uses either the iterative attacks offered by their BAB from their HD or class levels, or all its natural attack. A humanoid's natural attack sequence is only made of one [Slam] attack.
8) A Flurry of Blows can be made with any natural attack.
9) Multiattack only applies to "secondary" natural attacks made during a natural attack sequence, not during iterative attacks.
only problem with doing number 1, is that creatures with high base attack, (ie: over +6) do not get the extra attacks. plus slam attack if its the only attack done by the creature are 1.5 x str bonus for damage.
Interesting changes. May I ask why you added these?
Because I've seen several heated threads debating about the differences between natural attacks and unarmed attacks, about monks using gauntlets, about INA, and about FoB (for which the monk levels stack with BAB from other classes - if it isn't RAW, I include this in my list of house-rules). I wanted to see if there was a mean to solve all these problems with some house-rules. Simplifying the rules is an added bonus.
only problem with doing number 1, is that creatures with high base attack, (ie: over +6) do not get the extra attacks. plus slam attack if its the only attack done by the creature are 1.5 x str bonus for damage.
Number #1 was to wrap unarmed strikes into natural attacks, not natural attacks sequences into iterative attacks. Even with my house-rules, the rules for creatures don't change much.
I should have expanded #9 as such, and put it in first place:
- a wild creature will only use its natural sequence of attacks.
- "civilized" creatures can choose to use iterative attacks or their natural sequence of attacks (or the natural sequence of attacks of the form they're polymorphed into).
The natural attack sequence is something that's instinctive, rather than thought out: the creature throws itself at the enemy, putting all its weight behind the attack, and possibly several limbs at the same time. However, it lacks the finesse that moderate-to-high level characters have, in the form of additional attacks with their primary weapons.
I haven't gone into more details about the Str modifier, but I don't see why there should be much difference. If using the iterative sequence of attacks, I say the Str depends on the weapon used, as usual (natural attacks in this case would have only x1). Yes, characters would get 1.5x Str when they'd use their natural attack sequence. But that's only one attack, regardless of their level. They'll probably forgo this option as soon as their BAB reaches 6.
I haven't written anything about mixing weapons and natural attacks. Here it goes:
10) In an iterative sequence of attacks (even if that's only one attack), any slam attack with a hand can be replaced with an attack with a weapon held in that hand. A full-attack from a Fighter level 20 can consist of a sword slash, the sword thrown, a punch to the face, and a shield bash. A flurry of blows from a Monk can include their fists (or any other body parts) or monk weaponry.
To sum it up, my rules shift the unarmed strike/natural attack difference from a type of attack to a type of full-attack (iterative attacks vs. natural sequence of attacks).
Thanks for your input.
EDIT: If an attack has several damage listed, apply only the highest one (this is for Monk/Druids using wild shape).
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Wow, way to make vampire monks work the way most people think they should but don't. Your players will really love your house rules that totally screw them over against level drainers.
Natural Attacks being separate from Unarmed Strikes is kind of important for game balance. That's why they exist as two different things.
Are Shortswords now Longswords? Sorry to be a little rude but your house rules are going to muck up a lot of how monsters work.
A 10 point list isn't simplification of a simple thing like Natural Attacks aren't Unarmed Strikes. It makes it more complicated as there are more rules. Most of the rules arguments are simply because people don't read the rules or want something to work in their favor no matter what.
They're your house rules but by posting them I assume you want to discuss them to some degree.
Interesting changes. May I ask why you added these?Because I've seen several heated threads debating about the differences between natural attacks and unarmed attacks, about monks using gauntlets, about INA, and about FoB (for which the monk levels stack with BAB from other classes - if it isn't RAW, I include this in my list of house-rules). I wanted to see if there was a mean to solve all these problems with some house-rules. Simplifying the rules is an added bonus.
As has been said, they're your house-rules, but my 2 cp is that the rules don't actually need changing.
Firstly, the description under Strike, Unarmed in the weapon section (*edit* p.149)says on the last line: "unarmed strikes are not considered natural attacks".
Secondly, under natural attacks (*edit* p.182) it says: you can use natural attacks (claw, etc.)in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes. so say you have 2 claws and a bite, you could attack with a unarmed strike as your first claw - 1d3 non-lethal damage, then attack with your claw and bite as natural attacks; albeit at a -5 penalty unless you have multiattack as they're considered secondary attacks.
btw, on 8) on OP, you already can't use a natural attack as a flurry of blows - only unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
but hey, like i said, your house-rules, personally, i don't see the need tho.
As has been said, they're your house-rules, but my 2 cp is that the rules don't actually need changing (...)
I know that what I posted contradicts RAW on several points. That's why I posted it in the House Rules forum.
Wow, way to make vampire monks work the way most people think they should but don't. Your players will really love your house rules that totally screw them over against level drainers.
That's... nice of you to remind me. I haven't thought about the "special effect" and other touch attack related abilities tied to natural attacks. My mistake (kind of, because I'll probably integrate it in another way).
A 10 point list isn't simplification of a simple thing like Natural Attacks aren't Unarmed Strikes. It makes it more complicated as there are more rules. Most of the rules arguments are simply because people don't read the rules or want something to work in their favor no matter what.
Reading the debates over the forums, I'd say several people are disagreeing on how natural attacks and unarmed attacks should be treated in relation to each other. I just wanted to post my thoughts on how to "solve" this.
What's so different between a Huge-sized humanoid and a Medium-sized one so that the Giant has a Slam natural attack and the human doesn't? That is what irks me.
They're your house rules but by posting them I assume you want to discuss them to some degree.
Exactly. Thanks for your input.
7) A creature uses either the iterative attacks offered by their BAB from their HD or class levels, or all its natural attack. A humanoid's natural attack sequence is only made of one [Slam] attack.
I would add "unless that humanoid is given natural attacks from another source."
Think the half-dragon template, which gives 2 claws and a bite, and can be applied to humanoids.
I think it's a good attempt, what you've put together here.
7) A creature uses either the iterative attacks offered by their BAB from their HD or class levels, or all its natural attack. A humanoid's natural attack sequence is only made of one [Slam] attack.I would add "unless that humanoid is given natural attacks from another source."
Think the half-dragon template, which gives 2 claws and a bite, and can be applied to humanoids.
I think it's a good attempt, what you've put together here.
You're right, of course. The [Slam] was to be added to any creature with arms/fists, not used to replace everything a creature already has through other means. Thanks for your supporting input.
House-rules for unarmed strikes and natural attacks (update)
First, why changing something that works? Mainly because I wanted to solve some issues raised by several heated threads debating about the differences between natural attacks and unarmed attacks, about monks using gauntlets, about INA, and about FoB. A human and a giant have the same morphology, they should have the same ability to attack unarmed, the only distinction being their size (and their training). This list is made is to wrap unarmed strikes into natural attacks, so you can remove EVERYTHING related to unarmed strikes from the rules.
1) All creatures should have at least one natural attack. Creatures who didn't can now slam their fists or whatever limb/appendage they have at their foes, as a [Slam] natural attack. Humanoids' unarmed strikes can be considered [Slam] natural attacks.
Any creature is proficient with its natural attack, except peaceful ones: classes related to intensive studying (arcane) are not proficient by default. A creature not proficient with their natural attacks considers them Secondary, and they cause less damage: apply a -1 size increment (1d4 becomes 1d3) and only apply half the Strength bonus to damage.
2) When attacking, a creature can use either its natural sequence of attacks, or the iterative sequence.
- The natural attack sequence is the one outlined in the Bestiary. It is instinctive, the creature throwing itself at the enemy, putting all its weight behind the attack, and possibly several limbs at the same time (a humanoid’s natural attack sequence is only one [Slam] attack). Apply the usual distinction between Primary and Secondary attacks.
- The iterative attack sequence is the one listed in the Core Rules, which depends on the BAB gained by class levels (including unusual sequences like Flurry of Blows). This one has more "finesse" as characters can strike several times with the same weapon. When using this iterative sequence, a creature can use any attack they know, replacing weapons by natural attacks as they see fit (the natural attacks aren’t merely added after the whole sequence). "Secondary" natural attacks still get -5 and half the Strength bonus, and "Primary" attacks only get one time the Strength bonus.
- Wild creatures and most monsters always use the natural sequence, while "civilized" creatures (read: those with class levels) can choose between the two.
3) An humanoid-like creature trying to strike with their natural weapons has a reach reduced by 5 feet. This forces them to get temporarily closer to their enemy, this being the reason for incurring an attack of opportunity in some cases (a Large creature, having its reach reduced from 10’ to 5’, still threatens its adjacent enemies normally). The Improved Unarmed Strike feat, hereby renamed "Close Combat", removes this drawback (and makes the creature proficient with the natural attack, if it wasn’t already). Any monster entry with no weapon and a [Slam] attack gets this feat.
4) The damage caused by a Medium creature with a [Slam] natural attack is 1d4. Add the Strength modifier only once if used in an iterative sequence, and once-and-a-half if used in a natural sequence of attacks (because it’s a Primary attack in a natural sequence).
5) Natural weapons can be enhanced in different ways. When a size increment is applied (bringing the 1d4 base to 1d6), it can be typed, and doesn’t stack with other size increments of the same type. Here are examples of enhancement-typed size increments:
- The Improved Natural Attack feat is available to everyone proficient with a natural attack, and applies to one type of natural attack.
- The creature can wear gauntlets, knuckles dusters, hardened boots, a steel helmet, etc. These aren’t considered weapons by themselves.
- The limbs causing the attack can be hardened by magic effects (Stone Skin, for instance).
- As a swift action, a Monk can pop a Ki point to harden their fists.
- Some feats harden the limbs (Fists of Iron, for instance).
Some class features increase the damage. These increments would be untyped:
- Warshaper: level 1, as a move action, apply a +1 size increment
- Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries: level 4, apply a +1 size increment; level 8, apply a +2
- Monk (optional): consider the damage increases as a size increment (+1 at level 1, +2 at level 4, etc) which can be applied to one type of natural attack the monk knows (Slam, Claws, Bite, etc - can be different each time).
6) About level drainers and other creatures who apply a special effect to their natural attack: only apply that effect a limited number of times per round (check the number of attacks having that effect in the monster's entry). Remember that most monsters will keep their natural sequence of attacks so no big change there.