If a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from another creature with the grab ability, can the second creature grab on a successful AoO with the appropriate attack?
Sure thing! Turnabout's fair play.
Also if the second creature doesn't have Improved Grapple they invoke an AoO from the first one. This continues until one of them runs out of AoO's. Then you resolve it.
Attacker 1 Dex of 14, Combat Reflexes
Attacker 2 Dex of 16, Combat Reflexes
1 tries to grab 2
Invoking 1st AoO from 2
2 tries to grab 1
Invoking 1st AoO from 1
1 tries to grab 2 again
Invoking 2nd AoO from 2
2 tries to grab 1 again
Invoking 2nd AoO from 1
1 tries to grab 2 a third time
Invoking 3rd AoO from 2
2 tries grab 1 a third time
This time 1 can't retaliate so 2 get's to try it's grapple.
Um, I thought grappling in PF was a standard action? Therefore it can't be used as an AOO? So no AOO-chain in this case.
Replace all instances of grapple with "trip." > . >
Um, I thought grappling in PF was a standard action? Therefore it can't be used as an AOO? So no AOO-chain in this case.
doesn't the grab ability give the creature a free grapple attempt on a successful hit though? I wouldn't think that a grab grapple would be a standard action because the creature already used a standard action to make its attack...
Um, I thought grappling in PF was a standard action? Therefore it can't be used as an AOO? So no AOO-chain in this case.doesn't the grab ability give the creature a free grapple attempt on a successful hit though? I wouldn't think that a grab grapple would be a standard action because the creature already used a standard action to make its attack...
You don't have to make an attack to initiate a grapple you just make a CMB check. Disarm, Sunder, and Trip can all replace a melee attack so you can use them with AoO's. Grapple however is a standard action.
Right, but what I am saying is, let's say Mr. Paladin charges a creature with reach and grab. THe paladin takes an AoO from moving out of a threatened square from 10 ft to 5 ft. The creature takes the AoO and hits with its normal attack. Does it still get the free grapple attempt from the grab ability at this point?
Right, but what I am saying is, let's say Mr. Paladin charges a creature with reach and grab. THe paladin takes an AoO from moving out of a threatened square from 10 ft to 5 ft. The creature takes the AoO and hits with its normal attack. Does it still get the free grapple attempt from the grab ability at this point?
Yes, with the grap ability the grapple attempt is a part of the attack.
EDIT Oh, I unclear whether it would toggle the AoO in the first place, since charging don't provoke an AoO.
Right, but what I am saying is, let's say Mr. Paladin charges a creature with reach and grab. THe paladin takes an AoO from moving out of a threatened square from 10 ft to 5 ft. The creature takes the AoO and hits with its normal attack. Does it still get the free grapple attempt from the grab ability at this point?Yes, with the grap ability the grapple attempt is a part of the attack.
EDIT Oh, I unclear whether it would toggle the AoO in the first place, since charging don't provoke an AoO.
indeed charging is not a good example... unless the Paladin charges creature A (doesn't matter what creature it is but lets say a sea hag c sorcerer or something) but has to pass through creature B's (a creature with grab, lets say a giant octopus) threatened area to get to it.
Here is the Grab ability from the PRD just so that everyone is on the same page:Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.
EDIT Oh, I unclear whether it would toggle the AoO in the first place, since charging don't provoke an AoO.
Okay, ganking my own thread here, but if you charge an apponent who has reach, why wouldn't it provoke an AoO from moving out of a threatened square? I don't see anything in the charging rules that prevent it. For example, if I charge a colossoal dragon with massive reach, charging it should provoke an AoO for moving through it's threatened area to get next to it.
I believe it is being brought up because charge is listed as an AoO NO action on the action list... though I think you are correct that the charge itself doesn't provoke an AoO, but moving through a threatened area should, even if that area is threatened by the creature you are charging.
I believe it is being brought up because charge is listed as an AoO NO action on the action list... though I think you are correct that the charge itself doesn't provoke an AoO, but moving through a threatened area should, even if that area is threatened by the creature you are charging.
Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
I believe it is being brought up because charge is listed as an AoO NO action on the action list... though I think you are correct that the charge itself doesn't provoke an AoO, but moving through a threatened area should, even if that area is threatened by the creature you are charging.Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
Yes, that is how I read it. There is nothing stopping the creature from using it's abilities as part of it's AoO. Much like how you can make a disarm or trip attempt with a AoO.
As far as the giant stack of AoOs generated by someone without improved trip tripping someone without improved trip, I have always ruled that AoOs never provoke other AoOs. Keeps things simpler and then a fist fight between two guys just turns messy... could swear I remember a 3.5 rules of the game article on it but have not seen anything in pathfinder regarding the stacking of AoOs.
Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
Can't he continue his action, albeit with the normal penalty for being grappled?
Can't he continue his action, albeit with the normal penalty for being grappled?
Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
Yes, but in this case the normal penalty is that he can't move (and therefore can't continue his charge).
Yes, but in this case the normal penalty is that he can't move (and therefore can't continue his charge).Can't he continue his action, albeit with the normal penalty for being grappled?
Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
Damn, that makes reach and grapple a tough combination!
Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was reading all that right. I agree, there was somehting in the rules about an AoO not provoking an AoO in 3.5 I htink, may have been in the rules compendium, but that's how my group plays it too. My Eidolon then, which I just gave reach and has grab, has just been made into a perfect counter-charger :) and since I can cast wind wall.... score one for the summoner =P
Note that in my game if the charger has the Strike Back feat, I might be pursuaded allow him to "finish the charge" even when grappled--whacking the appendage grabbing him (though I know that strike back normally takes a readied action... sometimes the rule of cool should apply IMO).
Devil's Advocate:
Free Actions cannot be used outside of your own turn unless otherwise specified. Starting a grapple with the Grab ability uses a free action. Thus, it cannot be done outside your own turn, including on the vast majority of AoOs.
I have always ruled that AoOs never provoke other AoOs. Keeps things simpler and then a fist fight between two guys just turns messy...
Actually a fistfight won't turn messy anyway. Two dudes each without Improved Unarmed Strike will not provoke AoOs from hitting each other.
If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Of course, a character with Improved Unarmed Strike does threaten... but doesn't provoke AoOs from hitting with it. So there is no mess.
Devil's Advocate:
Free Actions cannot be used outside of your own turn unless otherwise specified. Starting a grapple with the Grab ability uses a free action. Thus, it cannot be done outside your own turn, including on the vast majority of AoOs.
Interesting point. That may be true, but I don't know where it says that. Here's the explanation of free actions from the PRD:
- "Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
- "Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below."
I guess it's implied elsewhere, however:
- "In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn."
- "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action." in combination with "However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time--even if it's not your turn."
EDIT: Actually, I guess making an attack of opportunity isn't really an action, so the fact that "[y]ou can perform one or more free actions while taking another action" doesn't really apply. Hm.
Only immediate actions (and speaking as a free action) state that they can be used when it isn't your turn. Thus, only immediate actions and any actions that specifically say so can be used when it isn't your turn. Grab does not state it can be used when it isn't your turn, and it requires a non-immediate action; thus, by the book, it can't be used on most AoOs (since for the most part you don't AoO during your turn, though it is possible).
Like I said, though, that's a devil's advocate position. I don't rule that way in my own games. I'm just pointing it out because it's a case where the rules as written are counter-intuitive and may need to be looked at by someone on the Rules Team.
Devil's Advocate:
Free Actions cannot be used outside of your own turn unless otherwise specified. Starting a grapple with the Grab ability uses a free action. Thus, it cannot be done outside your own turn, including on the vast majority of AoOs.
I think that's about right.
And just because it's the convoluted answer doesn't mean it's wrong (: (It's just more likely to be wrong compared to a simple answer.)
Damn, that makes reach and grapple a tough combination!Yes, but in this case the normal penalty is that he can't move (and therefore can't continue his charge).Can't he continue his action, albeit with the normal penalty for being grappled?
Right, I agree with that. So, if a player charges a creature with reach and grab, and the AoO hits, the creature could grab, and effectively the PC is grappled in the middle of his charge and he gets to do nothing, right?
Unless you where charging something different it's not a big deal though because being grappled moves you into their square doesn't it?
Unless you where charging something different it's not a big deal though because being grappled moves you into their square doesn't it?
not in Pathfinder, no (it did in 3.5).
not in Pathfinder, no (it did in 3.5).
Unless you where charging something different it's not a big deal though because being grappled moves you into their square doesn't it?
Actually...you have to move adjacent in order to grapple in Pathfinder. So maybe you could complete the charge...
("If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
makes sense
("If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
That's the thing I meant. You'll end up next to them.
("If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."That's the thing I meant. You'll end up next to them.
Fair enough, and I suppose by RAW, if I am remembering properly, being grappled wouldn't stop you from completing the action, so you'd just take the negatives for beign grappled? Of course, you could house rule the "logical" answer that the grapple ends the charge....
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Fair enough, and I suppose by RAW, if I am remembering properly, being grappled wouldn't stop you from completing the action, so you'd just take the negatives for beign grappled? Of course, you could house rule the "logical" answer that the grapple ends the charge....
A few things that could stop the charge, if you wish to interpret them this way:
1)Grappled creatures can't perform actions requiring two hands, so greatsword/other two-handed weapons are immediately out. This one is actually not up to interpretation as it is explained by the grappled condition.
2)Grappled creatures cannot move as per the grappled condition. Therefore, it could be ruled that since your charger cannot move, it was not his movement that put him adjacent to the monster. It was the monster's grapple that moved him there, and since his movement stopped before he was adjacent to the monster, he can't finish his charge.
3)If you don't want to use reason 2, then you should notice that a successful grapple against a non-adjacent opponent moves them to an adjacent space next to you. Note that it is a space of your choice and doesn't have to be the nearest adjacent space. This means you could mess up the charge by putting the charger in a space that was not his nearest square to you - which stops the charge because he can only charge into the nearest adjacent square from where he is to where you are.
I'm not saying you have to use any of these reasons, but they are there.