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From the Paizo blog: "At Thassilon's dawn, the Runelords held that wealth, fertility, honest pride, abundance, eager striving, righteous anger, and well-deserved rest were the seven virtues of rule—rewards that one could enjoy for being in a position of power. But the Runelords soon abandoned the positive aspects of these traits, instead embracing greed, lust, boastful pride, gluttony, envy, wrath, and sloth as the rewards of rule. Today, long after the fall of Thassilon, the original seven virtues are held as the great mortal sins, although only a few scholars who have studied ancient Thassilon know of their true sources."
So it seems that, originally, these seven virtues held sway in Thassilon. I'm thinking that, likely, the seven "sin" runes that figure in the Adventure Path weren't the original runes used in the empire since they all graphically represent their respective sins rather than the virtues. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to incorporate those seven virtues as a counterpoint in the A.P. if possible. I'm wondering whether the seven virtue runes in their original forms have ever been depicted. If not, what sort of imagery should they incorporate?
http://paizo.com/image/product/secondary/Pathfinder/SinRunes.gif
I don't Have any Runes but I would be interested in seeing a few LOL sorry threadjack over
I'm wondering whether the seven virtue runes in their original forms have ever been depicted. If not, what sort of imagery should they incorporate?
http://paizo.com/image/product/secondary/Pathfinder/SinRunes.gif
Maybe flip them either horizontally or vertically?
That won't work, as each graphically represents a sin, and just inverting it won't change that. For example, the rune for Greed looks like a hand picking a gem, and Gluttony looks like a fat man.
I know what you want Ambrus, but I can't really help so much. =/
I think there is a link to a bunch of Thassalonian runes around here somewhere. (I have a set I'll try to find.)
I scanned in what I have into photobucket:
I think there is a link to a bunch of Thassalonian runes around here somewhere. (I have a set I'll try to find.)
I scanned in what I have into photobucket:
I've seen that collection of Thassilonian runes, but the listed virtues don't match up at all with the counterpoint virtues: wealth, fertility, honest pride, abundance, eager striving, righteous anger, and well-deserved rest.
I can create the seven pictogram virtue runes myself if need be. I'm just wondering if I'm correct in my understanding that there once was a counterpoint "virtue" sihedron which was sinfully corrupted in time and whether those runes had ever been designed or not.
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I never was a fan of "honest pride" or "righteous anger" as virtues.
I think that those photobucket virtue runes have enough analogues for the sin runes:
Lust = Fidelity
Envy = Honor
Sloth = Skill/Industriousness
Greed = Hospitality
Gluttony = Self-Reliance/Diligence
Vanity = Truth or Discipline/Humility
Wrath = Kindness or Courage
I want to say there was additional runes in one of the Runelords books, but I can't remember where off-hand... Ah! I'm thinking of the Positive/Neutral/Negative runes in the "Thassilon" section of PF#1. Not the same.
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I never was a fan of "honest pride" or "righteous anger" as virtues.
I'll admit, some of the terms are a bit clunky; likely because the concept wasn't fleshed out much beyond a historical footnote in the paizo blog. In some cases I'd choose different words to represent the established concepts of the virtues.
Wealth => Prosperity: The state of being successful in material terms; flourishing financially. Although there's nothing wrong with "wealth", it seems awfully synonymous with "abundance", so I'd prefer something more clearly defined.
Fertility: Nothing wrong with fertility.
Honest Pride => Dignity: The State or quality of being worthy of honor or respect. That'd seem to concisely describe the concept of being justified in one's pride without being vain about it.
Abundance => Plenty: A situation in which food and other necessities are available in sufficiently large quantities. Changing it to "plenty" further ties it to the concept of food rather than material possessions; which is the realm of the wealth/prosperity virtue.
Eager Striving => Aspiration: A hope or ambition of achieving something or the object of such an ambition.
Righteous Anger => Retribution: Punishment that is considered to be morally right and fully deserved. An argument could be made that "Justice" also embodies this concept.
Well-Deserved Rest => Rest: Refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor. There's nothing wrong with simply calling it "rest". There's a already a significant difference between rest and sloth.
I think that those photobucket virtue runes have enough analogues for the sin runes.
I'd rather not try to shoehorn in any of those virtues because the concepts they embody don't really match up with the sin magic opposing virtues as they've been established.
It seems to me that the seven Thassilonian virtues aren't intended to directly oppose their associated sins the way the cardinal virtues do their associated cardinal sins. The Thassilonian virtues seem to represent the positive aspects of the concepts the sins eventually evolved from. For instance, Wrath's counterpoint virtue isn't pacifism, peace or patience but rather "righteous anger"; which wouldn't appear to preclude violence but only direct its focus towards righteous ends.
The notion behind the virtues and sins appears to be that they started out as positive philosophies that eventually grew corruptive when pursued to excessive ends: Rest is good, but becomes sloth if done to excess; pursuing prosperity leads to greed; dignity devolves into vainglorious boasting, etc.
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Since the seven Thassilonian "virtue" runes seem to never had been illustrated I figured I'd give it a try. Click on the link below to take a look at the results:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5303/thassilonvirtuerunes.jpg
I created these by studying the seven pictographic sin and other Thassilonian runes to try and pick out similar elements. For instance, black circles only appear in positive runes, while negative runes favor more pointy tips. Then I started sketching equivalent pictographic virtue runes based on their sinful counterparts. I started with the assumption that most of the original virtue runes may eventually morphed into the later sin versions; often by turning them around or distorting them so that they resemble other images. I'd be curious to read some feedback; what would you change about them if anything?
The notion behind the virtues and sins appears to be that they started out as positive philosophies that eventually grew corruptive when pursued to excessive ends: Rest is good, but becomes sloth if done to excess; pursuing prosperity leads to greed; dignity devolves into vainglorious boasting, etc.
Spot on.
Since the seven Thassilonian "virtue" runes seem to never had been illustrated I figured I'd give it a try...
Dude, NICE! These couldn't look more perfect! :-)
Those look great. Very true to the concept.
The only thing is that the circles look weird. Maybe replacing them with another jagged geometric shape would be more in line with the sin runes?
The only thing is that the circles look weird. Maybe replacing them with another jagged geometric shape would be more in line with the sin runes?
As I mentioned above, I chose circles rather than additional jagged shapes since, according to the Thassilonian runes download, positive Thassilonian runes all seem to have them. I can change them if there's a general consensus that they seem incongruous though.
Excellent job.
People like yourself are what make this the best module in the world to run.
The only thing is that the circles look weird. Maybe replacing them with another jagged geometric shape would be more in line with the sin runes?As I mentioned above, I chose circles rather than additional jagged shapes since, according to the Thassilonian runes download, positive Thassilonian runes all seem to have them. I can change them if there's a general consensus that they seem incongruous though.
I missed that because I am dumb.
Carry on!
Those look great. Very true to the concept.
The only thing is that the circles look weird. Maybe replacing them with another jagged geometric shape would be more in line with the sin runes?
WOW! Those are amazing! And the attention to details from the original runes and the APs.
AWESOME!
I've been working on illustrating the old sihedron, the seven-pointed star sigil which I imagine might have been the coat-of-arms for the Thassilonian empire before its founding virtues were corrupted by the Runelords. It's blades are a less vicious and more fancy and its accompanying runes are more boldly colored and closer together; symbolic changes reflecting the happier times early in the empire's founding. Take a look.
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2449/auldsihedron.jpg
Beautiful work!
Ambrus, that's gorgeous! I am so using all of these. :-)
I am so using all of these. :-)
That's why I posted it here. I hope others find it useful.
Hm. I wonder if the Wayfinder people might like to put it in an issue. It'd be fun to develop the idea further.
This could be a really good direction for the GMs who want to avoid the "Side with Evil" themes in the AP. The players can head to Runeforge to uncover the original runes of Virtue, as it makes some sense that those would be able to counter Karzoug's power.
Any ideas for powers that these runes might have, as per PF#5's Magic of Thassilon chapter?
Linkified:
Auld Sihedron
Thassilonian Virtue Runes
Links seem broken...could anyone repair? Am beginning RotRL today!
Yeah, Lincoln's links are broken.
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Use these:
(From further up in the thread)
Excuse the thread necromancy, but I just logged in after a very long time away and saw the request for an image link. I found this one online, in case anyone was looking for it:
https://db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net/assets/283552/auldsihedron.jpg?1389664 851