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Hey there,
The title says it all, really. I'd like to hear some opinions on why epic level play a la Epic Level Handbook is broken. I ask because I've never bothered with epic-level games myself and now a player of mine is asking if I'll run an epic-level game.
I've heard a lot of people say the rules are broken but I haven't heard any specifics about what it is about Epic Level Handbook that's broken.
So yeah, what's your opinion on the matter?
I've been playing in a long-running albeit seldom meeting epic campaign for the past five years or so. This might be an even better example of 3rd Ed. epic play because the ruleset we're using (still) is 3.0. We started at 16th level and we are now at 24th (I think). It's been a twice a year gig where we head up to a cabin in the woods and just game it up for 3-4 days. We're set to meet up again at the end of next month where we'll be finishing our current DM's campaign and then I'll be picking up the reigns for the next one which will be Pathfinder rules starting at level 15. Anyway, background aside I don't think epic play is 'broken' per se. The Epic Level Handbook is actually a great resource with a lot of good info specific to running epic campaigns.
It does certainly take a higher level of energy for a DM to run an epic game because of how many options are available to the players. With the higher level spells that tend to be "game-breaking" such as teleport, wish, polymorph, etc... there are good ways to handle them, and then there are house rules. Pathfinder has fixed these as far as I'm concerned.
Combat can be a long drawn-out process with iterative attacks, and again, a plethora of options. There are ways to speed things up that work at any level such as having the players determine what they are going to do when it isn't their turn, and then roll for their hits/damage beforehand. One houserule that I picked up from Trailblazer is to reduce the iterative attacks to two with minor penalties to attack. It was designed to speed up play primarily, but also since the system was designed for players to hit often and for lots of damage, it helps smooth things out.
I remember the first session we played, I one-shotted a Nightmare Beast (MMII), the first boss in the campaign with Disintegrate. Again that was 3.0 edition rules, but man was that satisfying! Don't be afraid of the characters dominating some encounters. They are epic! Make sure to put them up against more than one or two monsters, or give them a lot of extra HP and don't afraid to make them tough. Trailblazer has some neat rules for elite and solo monsters which might help with this if you're interested.
It definitely requires an experienced DM to handle epic play, but if you have the motivation and the energy, it can be extremely rewarding. I look back on our 3.0 campaign and there were a few encounters we had where I genuinely felt we were screwed, however after we overcame them, I realized that we were fine. Either way I've had a blast rolling 24d6 damage with an enhanced Ruin spell (Epic level handbook), and yet the creature keeps on coming. Even if it died outright, the satisfying nature of being that powerful is a lot of fun in itself.
We fought two templated Terrasque's in a row and while I wouldn't say they were a cakewalk, they weren't the challenge of a lifetime either. Still, we will always remember those battles because... they were Terrasques! Giving creatures a higher HP certainly helps. I think those things had over 1200.
I'm a part of the camp that doesn't require that D&D be 100% balanced all the time. If the wizard is out-damaging the fighter all the time, then the DM might need to find ways to threaten the wizard. Disjunction, anti-magic fields, you get the idea. High damage and utility is the wizard's schtick. Without it, he's a poor wizard. The fighter can go toe-to-toe with the baddest beasties of the land. Who cares if he's not cranking out as much damage as the wizard? It's about flavor in my mind. If you have players that want 100% balance then you have to do a lot more tweaking, but it can be done. Even so, the fighter-tank of our current group has been out-damaging the wizard (me) on most occasions recently. At one point, he one-shotted a creature with a melee attack which was friggin' awesome. Still, we've gotten pretty beaten up as well.
Ultimately not every DM should probably run epic campaigns, but I think every DM should give it a shot. You really have to go in with certain expectations, the biggest of which is to have fun and not sweat balance too much. If you're a stickler for 100% balance, you might want to stick to lower levels, but you are missing out!
My experience are mostly similar. I also like an epic level game. It is the moment you can throw practically anything at the PCs, which is fun.
However, be prepared to handle only one combat per session. Combat is that long. And especially when the players have access to spells like e.g. time stop, you have to take notes, otherwise there comes a point during the session you have no idea what is going on anymore.
Do not use the EL table from the DMG anymore (13 encounters = one level). Epic adventures work best when you make 3 to 4, at most 5 encounters per adventure (assuming they go up one level). Then you still have 4-5 sessions per adventure.
Be also prepared that it will cost you a lot of prep time. There are not many pregenerated epic adventures, and if you have one, you will probably have to adapt it to your party. If you make your own adventures: it costs a lot of time (and thinking power) to make challenging epic level encounters.
I not only used the tips in the epic level handbook, but also the tactical tips from Dungeonscape. This way I managed to make 2 epic adventures which the players thought were really awesome. However, time played an important role, so that is why my epic campaign is not running anymore at the moment. But we have not really stopped, so perhaps we will pick it up again at some time...
^ Both of those posts are epic. =P
Seriously, very helpful!
One of the issues I have found with running the epic campaign Knight Protector mentioned is the distribution of treasure. The amount of wealth the characters should have at their disposal was mind bogglingly huge and simply not worth all the bookkeeping.
Now, don't get me wrong, they killed the mightiest dragon in the prime material plane and I gave them the entire hoarde, and as a DM, that took some considerable pre-game time to put it all together. So I'm not against giving them money and treasure and loot, but I've had to expand my understanding of what I can dole out as "treasure".
One of the things I've done as the DM of an epic level campaign has been to give Templates as Treasure - and it has been awesome. It's great when a Paladin gets his hands on the holy avenger, but then it's more the gear that makes the character awesome then the actual character. By giving out the templates, my players have all been incredibly satisfied with how their characters have improved. I've given out the celestial (maybe it was 1/2 celestial) template from the 3.0 MM and from the Deluxe Book of Templates (my favorite supplement as a DM by far) I've given Argent Servitor, Blind Oracle, Aspect of War, and used the rules within to make another template called Immortal Prophet.
With the templates, if a character does happen to be subject to say, a disjunction, they aren't too much worse off with a mundane sword or bow than they are with a fully jazzed up magic one. DR is going to be a more potent problem, but it's the character swinging the sword that is so awesome rather than the sword itself.
Also, be advised that DMing epic level games quickly, in my experience, becomes more art than science. This isn't by any means bad, but people looking for concrete and measurable gauges of how to run a game at this level are going to be disappointed. As has already been stated above, the gamut of options available to characters at this level of power is absolutely immense and it takes a lot of work ahead of time to develop enjoyable encounters.
In the example Knight Protector gave above, he one-shotted the first boss the party was supposed to encounter. This is after I ran them through a battlefield that encompassed 9 battlemats, but the CR 16 boss fight was over on the first tick of the initiative count. This isn't at all what I intended, I wanted an epic balls-to-the-walls fight at the gate of the BBEG's fortress, but it sure did make my players feel like they were amazing.
And combat is indeed long. Our first combat (granted, it was on a battlefield 9 battlemats big) lasted 7 real world hours. The others haven't been nearly as big, and few have lasted more than 8 rounds, but they take a very long time for all of us, players and DM, to figure out what to do on our respective turns.
Sneaking through a castle at low levels to get to its juicy badguy center is fun and satisfying. Blowing up the castle outright from a mile away with a thought at epic levels is even more fun. That's my view of epic level games. In short - they are awesome.
The amount of wealth the characters should have at their disposal was mind bogglingly huge and simply not worth all the bookkeeping.
not mention the amount of wealth found on creatures. a wandering monster with hundreds of thousands of gp worth of gear?? that seems a bit much.
I had a blast with epic play.
I was in a campaign with gestalt characters and we made it to 26th level.
Combats were slow due to monster summoning, time stop, and similar abilties, but I still had a lot of fun.
We went to lots of different planes and got to fight monsters that I would never gotten the chance to otherwise.
The title says it all, really. I'd like to hear some opinions on why epic level play a la Epic Level Handbook is broken. I ask because I've never bothered with epic-level games myself and now a player of mine is asking if I'll run an epic-level game.
I'm not going to get into whether or not epic level play is broken, because I think it's a fruitless conversation. However, I can share some of my own experiences.
NPCs with Character Levels
One of the things I've noticed is that NPCs with character levels are incredibly weak at epic levels. According to the ELH, this is because the PCs have far more magic items available to them than the NPCs, so their attack rolls, saves, and armor class are much higher than the standard NPC's.
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, a human NPC rogue that I used for one of my games had an AC of 36, with an attack bonus of +27. Compare this to one of my players, who had an AC of 47, and an attack bonus of +35. As you can see, the NPC has to roll a 20 to hit the player's AC, while the player has to roll a 1 to miss. That's insane.
The ELH suggests that you give your NPCs a couple more levels in their class to make up the difference, but I find that this does little to alleviate the problem. It also says that you don't want to increase the levels of your NPCs too much, because then it gives the players access to more treasure than they'd normally receive.
Personally, I would suggest giving your NPCs a +5 to +10 bonus to their AC and attack rolls. That at least presents the players with a challenge, without altering their standard equipment value.
Invisibility
By the time your players reach epic levels, they're going to have easy access to spells like invisiblity and greater invisibility. They're also going to have Hide skills that will make you want to sit down and cry. Because of this, you need to use monsters abilities with abilities that allow them to detect the PCs even when they're invisible. Otherwise, the PCs are going to walk all over you.
Unfortunately, very few of the monsters from the ELH have any of these abilities. That said, it's very easy to add them in. Personally, I like to give animals scent, and creatures with burrow speeds tremorsense. However, you can make your own judgment calls in these departments.
The one thing you don't want to do is give all of your monsters these abilities. Otherwise, you're going to frustrate your players who use stealth to get around. Personally, I would say give about 50% of your monsters in any encounter abilities like these. That way, you give your stealthy characters something to sneak up on, without allowing them to mow through everything.
The following are some house rules I used.
By the time players reach epic levels, death is a regular part of the game. In fact, it becomes such a regular part of the game, that it's downright annoying. There are a number of ways to overcome this. Here's a homebrew mechanic that I use.
Death Points
Epic level player characters receive a total of 3 death points at each level, which they can use to avoid death as a result of hit point loss and/or a spell or effect that results in instant death. These points do not carry over, so if a character fails to use all of their death points before they level, any remaining death points are lost. Note: Epic level nonplayer characters do not normally receive death points, though they may choose to take the Cheat Death feat to gain access to them (see below).
Death points can be used in one of three ways. Characters can expend 1 death point to avoid death and instead fall unconscious, at which point they are considered dying (see the rules for Dying Characters described above). By expending 2 death points, a character can choose to take half their remaining hit points in damage in order to avoid death. Finally, by expending 3 death points, a character can choose to negate any damage or effect that would normally result in death.
Players can only use death points if their characters are conscious before the effect takes place. So for example, a character could use death points to avoid dying as a result of a slay living spell, but could not use death points to avoid dying as a result of a coup de grace, or death knell spell.
CHEAT DEATH [EPIC]*
Your intimate experience with death has made you more capable of avoiding it.
Benefit: You gain 2 additional death points each level that can be used to avoid death.
Special: You can gain this feat up to three times. Its effects stack.
*New feat.
One of the things that makes epic levels feel epic, are the new rules for epic level spells. Unfortunately, many of the rules for epic spellcasting make it impossible for characters below 30th level to gain access to them. In order to encourage my players to take advantage of these new rules before 30th level, I made the following adjustments to creating and casting epic spells.
Casting Time of Epic Level Spells
One of the problems that I've found with epic level spells is that the default casting time is normally one minute. This makes most epic level spells entirely useless in combat without reducing the casting time. Unfortunately, in order to reduce the casting time of an epic level spell to even one round, the spell’s Spellcraft DC needs to be increased by +18. This makes the Spellcraft DC of a relatively straightforward spell, like ruin (see pg. 85 of the Epic Level Handbook), ridiculously high (DC 47) without requiring some mitigating factor, such as an XP cost, to lower the DC of the Spellcraft check.
To reduce the Spellcraft DC of epic level spells, assume that all spells have a default casting time of 1 round. Increasing the casting time of a spell by one round reduces the Spellcraft DC by -2. So for example, the Spellcraft DC of a spell that takes 3 rounds to cast is reduced by -4.
All other factors for determining Spellcraft DC, including the +20 Spellcraft DC modifier required to reduce a spell’s casting time to 1-action, are unaffected. Note: This variant may have a significant impact on the Spellcraft DC of epic spells already described in the Epic Level Handbook. Make sure that you read these descriptions carefully, and make any adjustments that you deem appropriate.
Resource Cost for Developing Epic Level Spells
While it’s theoretically possible for an epic level character to start developing epic level spells as early as 21st level, the resource is so prohibitively expensive that a character is unlikely to have the resources necessary to develop an epic spell until 30th level or higher. To rectify this issue, the resource cost for developing epic spells has been reduced to 2,000 gp × the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed. Note: This variant will have a significant impact on the gold piece, and XP cost for epic spells already described in the Epic Level Handbook, as well as for the time required to develop these spells. Make sure that you read these descriptions carefully, and make any appropriate adjustments.
I've heard a few people complain that death ward at epic levels is broken, and as a DM who ran an undead campaign, I have to say I agree. When a player is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, ability drain, level drain, negative energy attacks, etc., it makes many of your monster's attacks completely ineffective. Because of this, I split the spell's abilities up, so that they function more the way they did in 3.0. Take a look.
Protection from Energy
Protection from energy can be used to provide temporary protection from negative energy. In all other ways, this spell functions as described in the Player’s Handbook.
Death Ward
The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain. This spell does not provide protection against negative energy effects (such as from an inflict spell or chill touch). In all other ways, this spell functions as described in the Player’s Handbook.
Hey there,
The title says it all, really. I'd like to hear some opinions on why epic level play a la Epic Level Handbook is broken. I ask because I've never bothered with epic-level games myself and now a player of mine is asking if I'll run an epic-level game.
I've heard a lot of people say the rules are broken but I haven't heard any specifics about what it is about Epic Level Handbook that's broken.
So yeah, what's your opinion on the matter?
Well, I hope you are playing 3.5. If so, my suggestion is that you use the epic rules integral to the DMG and not the ELH. You will find additional feats in all the Complete series of books for 3.5. While these guidelines are mostly the same as those in the ELH, they gave everything a once over and cut out the most egregious feats. Many of the feats in the ELH are either too powerful, too loopy, or more often, too weak or useless. It is also worth noting that they don't even touch Epic Spellcasting in 3.5. For that you'll have to use the ELH for a base. There are also various house rule treatments of Epic Spellcasting all over the web.
As far as epic spellcasting, my group found them useless; overpriced, underpowered, and overly complex. What you should be ready for is the Wizard who uses epic spell slots to cast VERY powerful standard spells. Also, watch out for prestige classes that grant Spell Power (boosting DC of all spells).
My group was at 20th level when 3rd Edition came out. We first just stumbled forward a few levels, then used the Epic guidelines in the FRCS. When the ELH was released, we went hog-wild. We played like mad, ending the campaign just before the dawn of 3.5 with PCs of 33rd to 37th level. Let me tell you, the numbers just don't work pretty much after 30th at all. I, and another DM, have tried multiple times to put together house rules and an adventure so we could trot out our beloved PCs a couple more times. We have never actually played them since 2003.
Just thought you should hear the other opinion.
Good Luck and Good Gaming!
I've heard a lot of people say the rules are broken but I haven't heard any specifics about what it is about Epic Level Handbook that's broken.
Open the ELH to any given page. That's why it's broken.
Okay, a less snarky answer:
The ELH has some great advice for running any high level game, but the mechanics that the book introduces are a giant wall of crap. Seriously, the ELH is tied with Deities & Demigods as 3e's worst rule books. As a joke demonstration, I wrote this a while ago:
Io, the True Dragon
Io appears as the biggest dragon you’ve ever seen. I know I’ve said that about the last five dragons you’ve fought, but I promise I won’t say it again. It’s extra true this time. His scales, surprisingly enough, are flawless mythril plates of draconic perfection. How’re they different from Bahamut’s platinum scales and a silver’s silver scales? I dunno, they’re more shiny or something.
Divine Rank: 25
Domains: Destruction, Luck, Trickery
Hit Dice: 60d12 + 1,920 (2,640)
I Go First: No, really, I have Supreme Initiative (+16)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 300 ft. good (60 squares), swim 60 ft. (12 squares), burrow 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 131 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +25 divine, +32 deflection, +60 natural), touch 71, flat-footed 119; 75% Miss Chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+133
Mm, Tasty Adventurer: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32)
I Slice and Dice Too: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32), Claws +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d8 + 16), Wings +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d6 + 16), Tail Slap +109 (4d8 + 48)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken, Crush, Frightful Presence, Tail Sweep, Spells
Special Qualities: Blind Sense 60 ft., Damage Reduction 50/+10, Fast Healing 45, I’m Immune Sucka!, Keen Senses, Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll, Spell Resistance 50
I Laugh at Your Tricks: Fort +89, Ref +69, Will +89
Don’t Hate Me ‘Cause I’m Perfect: Str 75, Dex 35, Con 75, Int 75, Wis 75, Cha 75
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better: Bluff +120, Concentration +120, Diplomacy +120, Escape Artist +100, Hide +100, Intimidate +120, Knowledge (Arcane) +120, Listen +120, Move Silently +100, Search +120, Sense Motive +120, Spell Craft +120, Spot +120, Use Magic Device +120
Feats: Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Rapid Strike (Claws), Improved Rapid Strike (Wings), Large and in Charge, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Breath, Quicken Spell, Rapid Strike (Claws), Rapid Strike (Wings), Silent Spell, Still Spell
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Spell Casting, Improved Metamagic (3), Multispell (2)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Form, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Battle Sense, Clear Sight, Control Creatures (Dragons), Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Glibness, Divine Spell Casting, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Free Move, Instant Counter Spell, Instant Move, Power of Luck, Power of Truth, Rejuvenation, Shape Change, Shift Form, Supreme Initiative, True Shape Change
Environment: Adamant Mountain
Organization: Silly Mortal, They Don’t Know What to Do With Just One of Me
Challenge Rating: 40 + Divine Ranks = You Can’t Beat Me
Treasure: You’re Wearing My Newest Delivery
Alignment: Neutral, So You Can’t Smite Me, Mwahahaha!
All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken: 80 ft. cone; 40d12 minty fresh damage; Reflex half (DC 72).
Crush: See MM, page 68; Huge or smaller foe; Reflex DC 72; 6d6 + 48 damage.
Frightful Presence: See MM, page 69; 600 ft. radius; Will DC 72.
Spells: Io casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer with the metamagic specialist feature. Because he’s extra special, Io has access to any spell list he wants. Spell DCs 42 + Spell Level.
Epic (6/day): True Contingent Resurrection:
True Contingent Resurrection
Necromancy [Healing] – (Silly mortal, conjurations that heal are stupid.)
Spell Craft DC: 92
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 quickened action
Range: Touch
Target: You or touched creature
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: Seed: life (DC 27). Factor: quickened spell (+28 DC), activates when subject dies (+25 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), no remains required (+4 DC ad hoc), no level loss (+4 DC ad hoc).
Effect: I’m back, biatch!
Spells I’ll Never Run Out Of:
32 (2/day)
31 (2/day)
30 (2/day)
29 (2/day)
28 (3/day)
27 (3/day)
26 (3/day)
25 (3/day)
24 (4/day)
23 (4/day)
22 (4/day)
21 (4/day)
20 (5/day)
19 (5/day)
18 (5/day)
17 (5/day)
16 (6/day)
15 (6/day)
14 (6/day)
13 (6/day)
12 (7/day)
11 (7/day)
10 (7/day)
9 (12/day): Freedom, Imprisonment, Mass Heal
8 (13/day): Dimensional Lock, Greater Spell Immunity, Moment of Prescience
7 (13/day): Blasphemy, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Restoration
6 (13/day): Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Heal
5 (13/day): Break Enchantment, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Wall of Force
4 (14/day): Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Superior Magic Fang (SC)
3 (14/day): Contagion, Haste, Magic Circle, Slow
2 (14/day): Bark Skin, Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Protection from Arrows, Wraith Strike (SC)
1 (14/day): Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
0 (6/day): Who cares, honestly?
Tail Sweep: See MM, page 68; Large or smaller foes; 50 ft. radius; Reflex DC 72; 4d6 + 48 damage.
Damage Reduction: A weapon ignores 5 points of Io’s damage reduction per enhancement bonus it has.
I’m Immune Sucka!: Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Banishment Effects, Cold Damage, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity Damage, Energy Drain, Fire Damage, Imprisonment Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Paralysis Effects, Poison, Rebuking, Sleep Effects, Stunning, Transmutation, Turning
Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll: Seriously, even if my bonuses weren’t crazy high, I’m a freakin’ overdeity. That means I’m treated as rolling a 20 on any check, saving throw or attack roll. Roll those attack rolls anyway though, I might get a critical threat! Oh and I always deal maximum damage – whether physical, breath weapon or spell. (Though, as if I would use a direct damage spell – they’re so nooooob!)
A Summary of ELH Absurdity:
1. The very premise of ELH, that 21st level is the beginning of PC epicness, is silly. By 21st level, PCs have been raising the dead, teleporting to new dimensions and generally changing the face of their world for about ten levels. Epic play actually begins at about 11th level.
2. Limitless progression. As much as I love the theoretical option to play a 100th level game, it just doesn't work in practice. Even with epic BAB and epic saves, PC/NPC/monster stats are already insanely wonky by 21st level. In many cases, rolling the d20 is merely a wrist exercise -- or a motion to avoid rolling a 1 or a desperate hope for a 20. D&D wasn't designed for limitless progression, and the only way to make it work would be to use something like the E6 variant.
3. It's all about the feats. Most of an epic PC's advancement comes as epic feats -- which are insane. They let casters become even more overpowered (Improved Metamagic and Multispell win the game), while non-casters get mostly junk (Epic Toughness and Dire Charge are outdone by similar options available at level 1!). The rate at which classes gain epic feats is often stupidly unfair: the wizard gets a new one every three levels while the mystic theurge gets half that rate and suddenly gets only half caster levels! It's actually pointless to take epic MT levels because you get more by simply boosting your base classes.
4. Epic Spells. We already have a [mostly] usable spell system that allows for epic effects prior to 21st level, so I've no idea why the ELH writers decided that we need an all new and even more broken 'epic' spell system. Oh I know, the epic spell system lets players write their own spells...News Flash: players can already do that using the spell slot system! Yeah, they have to get the DM's okay but the epic spell system also requires the DM's go-ahead. And because it's broken in its very foundation, the epic spell system often gives players and DMs a false sense of assurance. Anything that can be done with the epic spell system can be done better with the regular spell system.
5. Epic bling bling. More wealth disparity between PCs and NPCs, more enhancement bonuses to be disjoined, more ways to twink out PCs and on top of everything else: a few new items that completely neuter whole concepts. (Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity turns evokers into epic level commoners, as if they haven't been kicked in the groin enough even before 21st level). My solution to D&D's bling bling problem is to grant PCs and NPCs a variety of innate bonuses, so they don't need all the shinies.
And for all the ELH's bigger numbers and big 'innovations,' the game doesn't actually change in any meaningful way. PCs are still raiding dungeons and killing dragons for fun and profit; it's just that now they're raiding extra far-off planar dungeons and killing extra shiny epic dragons. The only thing that really changes is that combat becomes even more unbalanced: casters dominate the multiverse while non-casters tag along for the ride, fights are decided more and more by who goes first and who has the most blanket immunities to auto-lose effects.
Io, the True Dragon
I don't think I've ever LOL'ed so hard.
Open the ELH to any given page. That's why it's broken.
This is what had me LOL'ing the hardest...+5!...no wait +10!, it's Epic...
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2. Limitless progression. As much as I love the theoretical option to play a 100th level game, it just doesn't work in practice. Even with epic BAB and epic saves, PC/NPC/monster stats are already insanely wonky by 21st level. In many cases, rolling the d20 is merely a wrist exercise -- or a motion to avoid rolling a 1 or a desperate hope for a 20. D&D wasn't designed for limitless progression, and the only way to make it work would be to use something like the E6 variant.
This. D20 system was designed around a core assumption that a d20 roll plays a large role in your success/failure. This kind of works up in core rules, but it goes out of the window in epic play.
You just need a good amount of mitigation to get Epic spells around level 21.
Remember, multiple spells given up = lower DC (Leadership helps here)
Glad I could make some of you smile! :)
Open the ELH to any given page. That's why it's broken.
I don't think there's anyone who would dispute the fact that the ELH has its problems. The epic spell system is nerfed, the amount of money the PCs have available to them is obscene, the CR system for NPCs and monsters breaks down, epic items are way overpriced, and many of the minor problems that people normally complain about in 15th-20th level play become glaring issues at epic levels.
A lot of these problems with epic level play, I'm sure, are due to a lack of playtesting. However, in spite of all these quirks, the game is still playable at epic levels, and it can be an incredibly enjoyable experience.
The thing you have to get over with epic level play is this idea that the rules as written are balanced. There will be things that come up in game that are overly complicated, or broken, or nerfed, and you will have to decide how you want to deal with them. To give you some examples of issues that cropped up in my own game:
*Mage's disjunction as it is written, will grind any game to a halt. Why? Because by the time PCs reach epic levels, they have tons of magic items and each item has to make a Will saving throw against the spell's effect. As if that isn't bad enough, players with a low Will save will have to look up each item individually to determine if the item's save is better than their own. Do you use the spell as written, disallow the spell altogether, or create your own?
*Because of the movement limitations, a cube of force may not seem all that exciting. However, when combined with a spell like dimension door, it becomes a DM's nightmare. Imagine a group of four adventurers with one of these things. The wizard casts dimension door on the party, the fighter types get their full attacks, and the cleric activates the cube, hedging out all things. On the next round, the monster beats on the cube, taking off one or two charges. The cleric then drops the field, the fighters get their full attacks again, and the wizard casts dimension door to get them to a safe distance away. Now imagine this thing against a beholder, or a mithral golem. How do these monsters even compete when the entire party is protected against magic or nonliving matter?
If you're a good DM, you take each of these issues in stride, and try to figure out how to handle them as they come up. Sometimes, you can house rule something on the fly, sometimes it takes a little more thought, and sometimes you have to disallow certain combinations altogether. Still, you do as much as you can to allow the PCs to use all their abilities and items, so that they don't feel cheated.
It's a difficult balancing act, to be sure, but even if you don't get it exactly right, it can still be an enjoyable game.
Open the ELH to any given page. That's why it's broken.I don't think there's anyone who would dispute the fact that the ELH has its problems. The epic spell system is nerfed, the amount of money the PCs have available to them is obscene, the CR system for NPCs and monsters breaks down, epic items are way overpriced, and many of the minor problems that people normally complain about in 15th-20th level play become glaring issues at epic levels.
A lot of these problems with epic level play, I'm sure, are due to a lack of playtesting. However, in spite of all these quirks, the game is still playable at epic levels, and it can be an incredibly enjoyable experience.
The thing you have to get over with epic level play is this idea that the rules as written are balanced. There will be things that come up in game that are overly complicated, or broken, or nerfed, and you will have to decide how you want to deal with them. To give you some examples of issues that cropped up in my own game:
*Mage's disjunction as it is written, will grind any game to a halt. Why? Because by the time PCs reach epic levels, they have tons of magic items and each item has to make a Will saving throw against the spell's effect. As if that isn't bad enough, players with a low Will save will have to look up each item individually to determine if the item's save is better than their own. Do you use the spell as written, disallow the spell altogether, or create your own?
*Because of the movement limitations, a cube of force may not seem all that exciting. However, when combined with a spell like dimension door, it becomes a DM's nightmare. Imagine a group of four adventurers with one of these things. The wizard casts dimension door on the party, the fighter types get their full attacks, and the cleric activates the...
You are absolutely right, it is playable at epic levels (although I still contend that no amount of good judgment can sustain a campaign much past 30th). However, it can get pretty silly. And I think it is good to point out that the ELH is largely a morass of problems. It would be better to rewrite everything you want to include from the book as house rules for your game, rather than letting the players assume that "we're using the ELH now". That way lies madness as the DM is besieged by broken rules to clear up.
Io, the True DragonI don't think I've ever LOL'ed so hard.
the thing made Me ROFL to the point of breathing difficulty. i'm feeling a little better now. that is basically how both the "Epic Level Handbook" and "Deities and Demigods" are both written. the 2 funniest splatbooks ever. the way they are written, what is the point of statting out gods? if gods were not meant to be slain, do not stat them. and certain gods from Golarion have rather trivial weaknesses that can kill them. Gorum, the Iron Warlord, being an animated suit of full plate has all the weaknesses of Alphonse Elric. erase the blood rune on the inside of his armor and then his divine soul is destroyed. all you need is mundane bleach. bleach cleans up all stains, even shed divine blood. why else can angels easily afford to wear frilly all white robes? thier gods give them a humongous bleach allowance, in addition to thier divine paycheck. bleach is common in heaven. more so than dirt is on the earth. some of the PF gods are the reverse of the invincible statted 3.5 gods. being unstatted, and a few of them are a lot less ridiculous. i will say, removing gorums helm to bleach off the blood seal requires an Epic CMB check, and one not performed by a cleric of Gorum. so that balances his trivial weakness.
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When TS wins, he wins big.
Pretty much the problem I saw with epic play was numbers. All you did was add more numbers. The handbook should have had guidelines for actually changing your game.
The game I played in started at 15th, and my character ended up about 36th. It was just one long string of battles, which was okay at the time. But I noticed that when we found actual 'epic' monsters, their bigger numbers crushed us. With classed NPCs, we crushed them. The CR system meant nothing, either you died or they died, based on who had bigger numbers.
I kind of would like to see a system like the Primal Order where epic characters get something that really does set them apart. Guess we will wait and see.
You are absolutely right, it is playable at epic levels (although I still contend that no amount of good judgment can sustain a campaign much past 30th). However, it can get pretty silly. And I think it is good to point out that the ELH is largely a morass of problems. It would be better to rewrite everything you want to include from the book as house rules for your game, rather than letting the players assume that "we're using the ELH now". That way lies madness as the DM is besieged by broken rules to clear up.
I don't think it's just the epic level rules that are the problem. I think it's high level play in general. Spells, like mage's disjunction, gate, and time stop, for example, are a part of the core rules. Yet they're just as much a problem for epic level play as epic magic items, and epic spellcasting. I think the reason you don't notice them as much in a regular campaign is because they're only available to players for about three levels. In epic level games, however, they become staples, and any flaws that may have been hidden by infrequent use suddenly become glaring blemishes on the system.
I haven't actually run anything past 27th level, so I can't comment on what higher level games are like.
You are absolutely right, it is playable at epic levels (although I still contend that no amount of good judgment can sustain a campaign much past 30th). However, it can get pretty silly. And I think it is good to point out that the ELH is largely a morass of problems. It would be better to rewrite everything you want to include from the book as house rules for your game, rather than letting the players assume that "we're using the ELH now". That way lies madness as the DM is besieged by broken rules to clear up.I don't think it's just the epic level rules that are the problem. I think it's high level play in general. Spells, like mage's disjunction, gate, and time stop, for example, are a part of the core rules. Yet they're just as much a problem for epic level play as epic magic items, and epic spellcasting. I think the reason you don't notice them as much in a regular campaign is because they're only available to players for about three levels. In epic level games, however, they become staples, and any flaws that may have been hidden by infrequent use suddenly become glaring blemishes on the system.
I haven't actually run anything past 27th level, so I can't comment on what higher level games are like.
Oh I know what's wrong with high level play, I have been brutalized by a power gamer with a 37th ECL Drow Rogue/Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Arcane Lord! It is CRAZY. Forget Epic spells, I don't even think he can cast them.....why would he? He casts empowered/heightened/delayed blast sonic balls!
I just mean you don't need the confusion of the crappy ELH rules whilst you're taming epic lions wearing a meat suit.
You are absolutely right, it is playable at epic levels (although I still contend that no amount of good judgment can sustain a campaign much past 30th). However, it can get pretty silly. And I think it is good to point out that the ELH is largely a morass of problems. It would be better to rewrite everything you want to include from the book as house rules for your game, rather than letting the players assume that "we're using the ELH now". That way lies madness as the DM is besieged by broken rules to clear up.I don't think it's just the epic level rules that are the problem. I think it's high level play in general. Spells, like mage's disjunction, gate, and time stop, for example, are a part of the core rules. Yet they're just as much a problem for epic level play as epic magic items, and epic spellcasting. I think the reason you don't notice them as much in a regular campaign is because they're only available to players for about three levels. In epic level games, however, they become staples, and any flaws that may have been hidden by infrequent use suddenly become glaring blemishes on the system.
I haven't actually run anything past 27th level, so I can't comment on what higher level games are like.
This, 9th level spells are unbalancing, not all but the majority. Some 7th and 8th as well. Not a huge problem when they see all of 2 or 3 months of play time for the latter and a month or less of the former. But when 8th and 9th level spells become your first resort the game halts. The book keeping+ the disparity in strength of spells at that level+ the disparity in strength between class growth+ the disparity in strength of monsters Vs. Players= a mess rather quickly or a headache per fight at best. It really does become roll initiative... You win initiative you win the fight....
Your example illustrates not so much the weakness of the rules but the greater need for tighter enforcement. The whole dimension door/force cube scenario you illustrate falls down when you remember one basic fact. Going through the dimension door spell ends the turn for everyone involved in that spell.
From the SRD: "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." It doesn't say anything about creatures who comes with you. I think you could infer that creatures who come with you can't take actions, or perhaps houserule that they can't, but the way it's written, it sounds like the restriction applies only to the caster. In any event, even if you are correct, it doesn't prevent the wizard from just using greater teleport to teleport the party into combat, and dimension door to teleport out.
You also need to remember to take the gloves off your NPCs they can be just as tactical... in delaying or readying thier actions as the party can.
No amount of strategy helps if your NPCs are constructs or spellcasters. "Oh boy! I can cast six disintegrate spells! Too bad I have to use every last one of them to take charges off their stupid cube of force. Oh look! Two rounds in, and I'm dead. Bummer."
You have a problem with mage disjunciton? use Anti-Magic shell or similar effects.
Personally, I just changed the spell description.
Mage’s Disjunction (version 3.Dove)
Abjuration
Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: one spellcaster, creature, or object; or a 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like greater dispel magic, with the exception that there is no limit on caster level, and it affects all creatures within a 20 foot burst as if they were the subject of a targeted dispel. Additionally, mage’s disjunction can be used in the following manner.
Disjoin Antimagic Field: You can use an area dispel check to dispel an antimagic field. You have a 1% chance per caster level of dispelling an antimagic field. If the antimagic field is dispelled, you can use this spell to dispel any other spells or spell-like effects within the area as normal.
Disjoin Magic Item: You can use a targeted dispel check to disjoin the effects of a permanent magic item. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are permanently disjoined, turning it into a normal item.
Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)
Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.
Still pretty powerful, and it doesn't take an hour to adjudicate.
Personally, I just changed the spell description.
Mage’s Disjunction (version 3.Dove)
Abjuration
Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: one spellcaster, creature, or object; or a 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: NoThis spell functions like greater dispel magic, with the exception that there is no limit on caster...
EXACTLY what my group came up with about 7 years ago. EXACTLY.
I love that there are a limited number of logical paths in game rule evolution, and given enough time, many groups come to the exact same conclusions.
This is why ancient religions (and modern ones too) resemble each other across the world.
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)
Epic play is not for everyone. It's a TON of work, both for the players and the DM, and it is very hard to find the right balance in order to make it fun.
As a result, I tend to make very few epic NPCs - they're just too much work. But there are a few, usually recurring characters - after all, an epic NPC, like an epic PC, is pretty darned hard to permanently take down.
However, epic level play IS fun, for the right people, under the right circumstances. Having run an epic game since 2006, I think it's reasonable of me to say so.
There are things that break it. If you want to play at the epic level rather than snipe at it, you have to avoid them. Kind of like plain old D&D or Pathfinder - there's always some broken combination that people are complaining about.
If you are dead set that epic play is broken, or if you are a powergamer always trying to find broken combinations so you can dominate the battlefield, then epic play is not for you. But it certainly is just as enjoyable, I think, as any other D&D game. It just has different challenges.
P.S. Once the party reached a high-enough level, they found Mordenkainen's disjunction much less scary. It's in that middle ground where you don't have great saves and lose half your magic items that it's unpleasant.
There are things that break it. If you want to play at the epic level rather than snipe at it, you have to avoid them. Kind of like plain old D&D or Pathfinder - there's always some broken combination that people are complaining about.
If you are dead set that epic play is broken, or if you are a powergamer always trying to find broken combinations so you can dominate the battlefield, then epic play is not for you. But it certainly is just as enjoyable, I think, as any other D&D game. It just has different challenges.
I think this is very close to spot on. The only things I would change is that I wouldn't say you have to avoid issues that break the game. I would say that you have to address them. I also wouldn't say that people who enjoy finding broken combinations can't enjoy epic level play. In fact, I have at least two people (arguably more) like this in my campaign, and while they certainly make the game interesting, I wouldn't say that they make it any less enjoyable.
P.S. Once the party reached a high-enough level, they found Mordenkainen's disjunction much less scary. It's in that middle ground where you don't have great saves and lose half your magic items that it's unpleasant.
It isn't so much that my players found mage's disjunction scary. Rather, we all felt that it took too long to adjudicate. In my game, it took my players an hour to roll the saves for all their magic items. An hour. No other spell or mechanic stops a game like that. Meanwhile, most of their items made their saves. So it wasn't that we felt the spell was unbalanced. We just felt that it needed to have a faster mechanic.
It isn't so much that my players found mage's disjunction scary. Rather, we all felt that it took too long to adjudicate. In my game, it took my players an hour to roll the saves for all their magic items. An hour. No other spell or mechanic stops a game like that. Meanwhile, most of their items made their saves. So it wasn't that we felt the spell was unbalanced. We just felt that it needed to have a faster mechanic.
I had a similar experience with MD; I was a player in a mid-level game when the DM dropped a MD trap on us. I was playing a mystic theurge [which paid off for once] so my stuff was fine -- I don't think I failed a single save -- but I remember everyone else being disgruntled when half their toys were suddenly useless.
In all honesty, high level and epic play certainly are playable. I DMed an epic game once, by RAW. Despite the horrendous rules, the power gamer and my hardly budding DMing skills, we had fun. After that game though, I asked myself: why bother running a game by RAW, much less an epic game, when it causes this much trouble?
Other DMs seem to have more tolerance for the rough spots in RAW, or maybe they have their own reasons for being reluctant to change the rules. But for me, I'm much more comfortable changing the rules to suit my own ease of play and balance -- I'd much rather wield my nerf/ban/fix bat than spend my planning time figuring out how to challenge the min/maxer without overwhelming the other players. To that end, I did write my own ELH at one point, though I never ended up running another epic level game.
To that end, I did write my own ELH at one point, though I never ended up running another epic level game.
I'd be very interested in your ideas, any chance you could post your "ELH"?
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)
Epic play is not for everyone. It's a TON of work, both for the players and the DM, and it is very hard to find the right balance in order to make it fun.
As a result, I tend to make very few epic NPCs - they're just too much work. But there are a few, usually recurring characters - after all, an epic NPC, like an epic PC, is pretty darned hard to permanently take down.
However, epic level play IS fun, for the right people, under the right circumstances. Having run an epic game since 2006, I think it's reasonable of me to say so.
There are things that break it. If you want to play at the epic level rather than snipe at it, you have to avoid them. Kind of like plain old D&D or Pathfinder - there's always some broken combination that people are complaining about.
If you are dead set that epic play is broken, or if you are a powergamer always trying to find broken combinations so you can dominate the battlefield, then epic play is not for you. But it certainly is just as enjoyable, I think, as any other D&D game. It just has different challenges.
P.S. Once the party reached a high-enough level, they found Mordenkainen's disjunction much less scary. It's in that middle ground where you don't have great saves and lose half your magic items that it's unpleasant.
Well, I for one am not set against Epic level play, indeed it is my primary design goal in revising d20 rules: to make epic level smooth and playable. You are quite right in all that you say.
One last piece of specific advice for anyone plunging into epic play in D&D 3.0 or 3.5: Change or remove Great Smiting. I suggest limiting it to a single instance and not stacking. My friend's 27th level paladin/divine champion once did a power attack/smite evil/bless weapon/sacrifice/charge against an enhanced epic Balor.......the paladin had three! Great Smiting feats....he hit for a crit and did 648 points of damage......you read that right......SIX HUNDRED FORTY EIGHT!!! I was so stunned that I had the balor explode (for all the good it did) and the rest of the fight was cleanup, but immediately after that I said "yeah....only one Great Smiting from now on", and he said sheepishly "yeah, that's probably best".
One last piece of specific advice for anyone plunging into epic play in D&D 3.0 or 3.5: Change or remove Great Smiting. I suggest limiting it to a single instance and not stacking. My friend's 27th level paladin/divine champion once did a power attack/smite evil/bless weapon/sacrifice/charge against an enhanced epic Balor.......the paladin had three! Great...
Yeah. That feat reminds me of the story about the man who invented chess. I'm sure you've heard it. When asked by the king what he wanted as a reward for his marvelous game, the man pointed to the board and said he wanted a grain of wheat for the first square, and for each additional square, he wanted double what was on the previous square (two for the second square, four for the third square, etc.). Math people will know that while it may not sound like much at first, by the time you get to the 64th square, that's more wheat than today's global production.
Apparently, the designers of the ELH have never heard that story.
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)So you'll just tell us we're not playing the game right? ;)
I thought he made rather neutral observations with the net effect of "to each his own".
Why the angst?
One last piece of specific advice for anyone plunging into epic play in D&D 3.0 or 3.5: Change or remove Great Smiting. I suggest limiting it to a single instance and not stacking. My friend's 27th level paladin/divine champion once did a power attack/smite evil/bless weapon/sacrifice/charge against an enhanced epic Balor.......the paladin had three! Great...Yeah. That feat reminds me of the story about the man who invented chess. I'm sure you've heard it. When asked by the king what he wanted as a reward for his marvelous game, the man pointed to the board and said he wanted a grain of wheat for the first square, and for each additional square, he wanted double what was on the previous square (two for the second square, four for the third square, etc.). Math people will know that while it may not sound like much at first, by the time you get to the 64th square, that's more wheat than today's global production.
Apparently, the designers of the ELH have never heard that story.
Btw....holy crap! That's like 5 QUINTILLION plus!!!!
I thought I knew the power of logarithmic scaling.....nope!
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)
So you'll just tell us we're not playing the game right? ;)
Heheheheh
What, you think you are? ;)
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Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)So you'll just tell us we're not playing the game right? ;)Heheheheh
What, you think you are? ;)
<highfive>
My 36th level monk says we should hang out.
I'd be very interested in your ideas, any chance you could post your "ELH"?
Don't have the link to the PDF he posted, but I did find this thread.
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)So you'll just tell us we're not playing the game right? ;)Heheheheh
What, you think you are? ;)
<highfive>
My 36th level monk says we should hang out.
I'd be very interested in your ideas, any chance you could post your "ELH"?Don't have the link to the PDF he posted, but I did find this thread.
Hey thanks, that'll work
.....uh.....what word?
Holy ancient thread, Batman! Apparently ENworld keeps threads forever. Anyway, here is a pdf link to the last rendition of my ELH I wrote. If I ran an epic game today, I'd probably tweak a few things and focus on something truly epic, like the PCs becoming gods or something.
Holy ancient thread, Batman! Apparently ENworld keeps threads forever. Anyway, here is a pdf link to the last rendition of my ELH I wrote. If I ran an epic game today, I'd probably tweak a few things and focus on something truly epic, like the PCs becoming gods or something.
Thanks much TS
Holy ancient thread, Batman! Apparently ENworld keeps threads forever. Anyway, here is a pdf link to the last rendition of my ELH I wrote. If I ran an epic game today, I'd probably tweak a few things and focus on something truly epic, like the PCs becoming gods or something.
Wait a minute.....you sneaky little.....Oh THAT Tequila Sunrise!....I already have that along with several other PDFs of your rules.
Thanks anyway!
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Played in several High Level games, usually in the form of one-shot or two-shot adventures. The highest was a one-off at a convention, where we played 40th lvl characters.
I had a cleric who had every spell conceivable, casting 4/turn, with like 400 hp and immune to everything. There was a monk who could run at mach 1.25 and deflect rays, a rogue with 20d6 sneak attack and a crazy death attack, and some fighter guy. With 800-1000 hp or something ridiculous like that.
Point was, the stuff we did felt a lot like regular DnD, only on a larger scale. We fought a Huge grappling ooze for each party member, and some Mooncalf creature with DR/-, several thousand HP, and ridiculous attack bonus/damage. It felt epic, and it helped the DM was real smooth with the rules.
Epic Spellcraft and crazy 15th level spells can be cool, but only if the whole adventure/game is about that. It's no fun to play bookkeeper for 2 hours before you can roll dice. We didn't touch the spell creation rules, and the few Level 21 PC's in longterm games came in right at the end of the campaign (on the doorway of the final BBEG's dungeon, in both instances I DM'd).
Mostly, I'd guess Epic play is broken because it requires less written crunchy bits and more "philosphy of design" bits. Tips on how to deal with common cut-arounds by PC's -speak with dead, teleport, invis/see invis, and the like. Suggestions for battle tactics with specific goals; protect the boss, capture live enemies, trap in a specific place, etc. These work great if paired with suggested monsters or classes.
Whomever suggested the Template Rewards above was right on the money. Non-GP buffs you can dole out are great, they keep the PC's interested in a place/people/thing AND give them combat ability without adding "treasure." This also works great for motivation..."sure, you're a Half-Vampire now, but if you keep drinking blood and acting like the vamp, you're gonna turn full-on NPC"
or
"You're a Half-Fiend now, and people are hunting you for your looks." Do you A: Kill the villagers come to evict/lynch you, or B: Seek a Non-Deadly resolution, or C: Do something completely off the wall, cuz you're a Lvl 30 Wizard.
-t
Played in several High Level games, usually in the form of one-shot or two-shot adventures. The highest was a one-off at a convention, where we played 40th lvl characters.
I had a cleric who had every spell conceivable, casting 4/turn, with like 400 hp and immune to everything. There was a monk who could run at mach 1.25 and deflect rays, a rogue with 20d6 sneak attack and a crazy death attack, and some fighter guy. With 800-1000 hp or something ridiculous like that.
Point was, the stuff we did felt a lot like regular DnD, only on a larger scale. We fought a Huge grappling ooze for each party member, and some Mooncalf creature with DR/-, several thousand HP, and ridiculous attack bonus/damage. It felt epic, and it helped the DM was real smooth with the rules.
Hey! I remember that!
Thank you for the compliment :)
One last piece of specific advice for anyone plunging into epic play in D&D 3.0 or 3.5: Change or remove Great Smiting. I suggest limiting it to a single instance and not stacking. My friend's 27th level paladin/divine champion once did a power attack/smite evil/bless weapon/sacrifice/charge against an enhanced epic Balor.......the paladin had three! Great...
Yeah. That feat reminds me of the story about the man who invented chess. I'm sure you've heard it. When asked by the king what he wanted as a reward for his marvelous game, the man pointed to the board and said he wanted a grain of wheat for the first square, and for each additional square, he wanted double what was on the previous square (two for the second square, four for the third square, etc.). Math people will know that while it may not sound like much at first, by the time you get to the 64th square, that's more wheat than today's global production.
Apparently, the designers of the ELH have never heard that story.
Sure they had. Remember that "doubling" in 3.5e does not mean "multiply by 2 again" ... it means "Add the base once again."
So if damage is doubled, it's X2. But if it's doubled again, it's X3, then X4, etc. So it's just linear. It will still add up to a lot eventually, but taking the feat three times doesn't mean you do 8 times the damage.
Sure they had. Remember that "doubling" in 3.5e does not mean "multiply by 2 again" ... it means "Add the base once again."
So if damage is doubled, it's X2. But if it's doubled again, it's X3, then X4, etc. So it's just linear. It will still add up to a lot eventually, but taking the feat three times doesn't mean you do 8 times the damage.
I realize that. However, when you're talking about the kinds of numbers we're talking about, it adds up (multiplies up?) fast.
Think about it this way: If you normally deal 50 points of damage as part of a smite attack (pretty conservative numbers when you consider the amount of damage that characters can dish out at epic levels), by the time you've taken the feat three times, that's 200 points of damage. That's without a critical! And every time you take the feat, your damage goes up by 50 more. So while it may not be the same story, it still suggests that the designers weren't really thinking about what kind of impact such a feat might have on the game.
*shrug*
There's a lot of that. Like Devastating Critical: "Okay, I crit the balor. It needs to make a Fort save (DC 10 + my character level + my Str modifier) or die instantly."
Not half level like most other saves. So when the 50th level fighter hits something, we're typically looking at a DC 70 or higher Fort save or die, often higher due to buffs.
That's what makes crafting high level encounters interesting :)
Not going to bother getting into the discussion here, since it's really two groups of people who don't agree continuing to disagree :)So you'll just tell us we're not playing the game right? ;)Heheheheh
What, you think you are? ;)
<highfive>
My 36th level monk says we should hang out.
I'd be very interested in your ideas, any chance you could post your "ELH"?Don't have the link to the PDF he posted, but I did find this thread.
Hey thanks, that'll work
.....uh.....what word?
Ah, looked back at my posts and realized you were referring to "angst". I admit that the definition is not quite what I thought. However, I think it fits the character of your accusation quite well: "A feeling of anxiety or apprehension......often accompanied by depression.;)
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Ah, looked back at my posts and realized you were referring to "angst". I admit that the definition is not quite what I thought. However, I think it fits the character of your accusation quite well: "A feeling of anxiety or apprehension......often accompanied by depression.;)
Which I found highly amusing since I have my tongue-surgically-in-cheek for all of my posts. Or try to at least. :)
Incidentally, what happened to our OP? You turned off to epic level play yet? ;-)
Hey! So, my group has finally figured out a way to make our 35th to 40th level characters PLAYABLE, and it was kind of in front of our faces the whole time!
Now, a lot of the people who want to play epic, want to play EPIC! 13th level spells, Arcane fire, Balance checks to walk on walls, the whole 9 yards. (I contend that this style is not really playable past about 30th level.) If that's you, then this will not satisfy-fair warning.
If, however, you are like me and my friends, you may just want a mechanically solid way to keep playing your favorite treasure-seekers. So here it is:
Stop all numerical increases based on character level or class level, at level 20.
That means 20 Hit Dice, 20th level BAB, 20th level base saves, etc. Abilities that depend on class level stop at 20th level in that class, so you can multiclass and still get your maximum goodies (spell casting level, sneak attack etc.). The exception is abilities that stack with other classes; these all have a maximum effective level of 20 (so a Rogue 15/Assassin 10 can still only have 10 sneak attack dice).
You always take the best value for all your classes and levels, to a max of 20th level ability (so a Ftr10/Rog10 who then raised fighter to 20 would have 20d10 Hit Dice, not 10d10 + 10d6). You cannot advance a class past 20th level (or the highest level listed for a non-epic PrC).
Skill ranks also stop at max 23 (or 11.5 in CC) in a skill (but skill points still accrue). You just have to diversify, it'll be fun.
As for the non-numericals: You continue to gain feats at normal intervals for character feats, and whatever is normal for any class feats (to max class level). You gain an ability increase every four levels as normal. You also gain skill points for all your epic levels, subject to the spending limits listed above. You gain any class features that you normally would in a class you advance, except the values derived from your level or class level are limited to 20th level of ability.
A note on epic spell slots; we are still thinking about this one. I might introduce a series of feats that let you take a very limited number of spell slots beyond 9th, for the purposes of casting high level metamagic spells. As far as epic spellcasting goes, I think treating them as complex, expensive, and dangerous rituals on a case by case basis is best.
I figure your CR equivalency goes up by one for every 3 levels past 20. So you can set up encounters based on that. I haven't play tested it yet, so that's just my gut estimate.
The only problem we have yet to figure out is gear. I forgot to mention that magical enhancements (etc.) also stop at 20th. Basically, the maximum numbers listed for magic items in the DMG are the MAX. (except for artifacts, making them relevant again--though I would keep their numbers fairly low as well). So the problem is money, and not having every item slot have three +5 magic item abilities in it.
I am aware that this is much the same as was presented in FRCS with the exception of Epic Spell slots.
Anyway, it isn't for everyone, but it might have a wider appeal than the normal epic rules.