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Okay, this one is tricky so bear with me.
First, the monk description says that FoB can only use unarmed strikes ("US" and "USs" for plural) and monk special weapons ("MSW" and "MSWs" for plural). For the sake of argument, let's say the monk has two attacks at +6/+6 when flurrying and chooses to make both using unarmed strikes. (The +6/+6 is because the monk in question has BAB from another class.)
Can the monk use a MSW and make an off-hand attack?
On the one hand this seems plausible because the definition of US in the monk description doesn't equate a MSW to be the same as an US. So the FoB uses all USs and one additional attack with a MSW should be possible. If you accept this logic, what are the attack modifiers for the FoB and the MSW off-hand attack without TWF? I would think the FoB would be at +0/+0 (the normal -6 penalty) and the MSW off-hand attack would be at -4 (the normal -10 penalty). Taking the TWF feat would change those attack modifiers per the feat description.
On the other hand the description of the FoB says, in part, "he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)". Does that wording prevent the use of a MSW as an off-hand attack because that attack would then be interpreted as being part of the FoB?
If you would rule that the additional MSW attack is valid and TWF would apply, would you also allow another off-hand attack if the character took ITWF?
I've always played that USs and MSW attacks are interchangeable in all ways. Yet the wording of both the 3.x SRD and the PRD now make me doubt that. It sounds like MSWs can only be used in a flurry and not anywhere else?! This has the repercussion above, but it also means that the amulet of mighty fists does not apply to MSWs as it specifically states USs.
I'm of the opinion they are the same because it means the designers don't have to call out "USs and MSWs" in every place where "USs" is mentioned.
What is your opinion?
I'm of the opinion that a monk weapon can be wielded in either hand as part of the flurry. Even if this is not implied it is not exactly overpowering and I think even underpowers the monk.
Okay, this one is tricky so bear with me.
First, the monk description says that FoB can only use unarmed strikes ("US" and "USs" for plural) and monk special weapons ("MSW" and "MSWs" for plural). For the sake of argument, let's say the monk has two attacks at +6/+6 when flurrying and chooses to make both using unarmed strikes. (The +6/+6 is because the monk in question has BAB from another class.)
Can the monk use a MSW and make an off-hand attack?
Short answer used to be yes with appropriate penalties (as you listed). Now FoB is stated to work as if the character were using the appropriate TWF feats even if they couldn't actually get the feat. Basically as you are already using "Virtual Two weapon fighting" for the first version of FoB, you couldn't use the feat Two Weapon Fighting with it too. Think of it as a "bonus," seeing as you are already getting an attack from TWF (from FoB) you can't stack it with TWF (the feat). They overlap, not stack.
On the other hand the description of the FoB says, in part, "he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)". Does that wording prevent the use of a MSW as an off-hand attack because that attack would then be interpreted as being part of the FoB?
If you would rule that the additional MSW attack is valid and TWF would apply, would you also allow another off-hand attack if the character took ITWF?
No, if you took TWF at 1st level and then took it a second time, you wouldn't get 2 attacks because the feat was taken twice. You'd have wasted a feat for all intents and purposes and still just get the singular extra attack.
I've always played that USs and MSW attacks are interchangeable in all ways. Yet the wording of both the 3.x SRD and the PRD now make me doubt that. It sounds like MSWs can only be used in a flurry and not anywhere else?!
No, you could always just choose to hack away with a monk weapon at whatever your BAB was. That never changed, it has always been that way. The only thing a weapon designated as a "monk weapon" gains is its ability to be used in a flurry. The damage and crit/multiplier is the same as the weapon states in the table (not your unarmed strike damage - though there might have been an item or ability that changes that in some book IIRC). You could just choose to use it in a flurry if you desired (notably if touching the creature via US would be bad or if you needed a special material or enhancement to overcome DR).
This has the repercussion above, but it also means that the amulet of mighty fists does not apply to MSWs as it specifically states USs.I'm of the opinion they are the same because it means the designers don't have to call out "USs and MSWs" in every place where "USs" is mentioned.
Umm, the amulet *never* worked on monk weapons, EVER. The amulet only enhanced the unarmed and/or natural attacks of the creature it was worn by. A monk weapon isn't a natural attack, it is a manufactured weapon that could be used in a special class ability based on a natural weapon, a monk unarmed strike. Even though a monk unarmed strike is counted as a manufactured weapon (so it can be targeted by spells and such - this was required for game mechanics) it is still a natural weapon as well which allows the amulet to modify the attack.
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I dont follow exactly what you are asking but I believe the answer is no - FOB is a full attack action & you cant stack two weapon fighting with it - FOB already reads like it uses TWF so I would not allow it as a DM - FOB allows the monk to use either US, MSW or any combination of both
also AMF does not work with MSW only natural attacks which includes US just like Skylancer said
I am wondering if a monk wielding a quarterstaff can wield it 2h or if they have to wield it as a double weapon when flurrying.
I am wondering if a monk wielding a quarterstaff can wield it 2h or if they have to wield it as a double weapon when flurrying.
The problem, as I see it, is that though the monk threatens with their feet/head/what-have-you, the two-weapon fighting rules (which are what flurry is based on) are clear that they have to have their off hand free to wield a weapon. "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand..."
While it'd be all kinds of 1970s Shaolin kung fu movie cool to do the quarterstaff/kick to the head/quarterstaff/knee to the groin thing, it's not RAW. I'd allow it as a DM though, because I think it's a cool flavor.
However, I think you'll find if you crunch the numbers that the two handed approach is nominally the same, damage-wise, but if you have an odd Str Mod you'd actually be doing less average damage due to rounding. At least, until unarmed strike damage improves to d8 or d10. Which begs the question why not just punch or kick with both. Note that I am not a fan of min/maxing or number crunching as a method of character choice.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
Zo
Okay, this one is tricky so bear with me.
Can the monk use a MSW and make an off-hand attack? (as part of a flurry)
No. It's not as tricky as all that. A Flurry is made "As if using the Two Weapon Fighting feat." As such, it incorporates your offhand attack as if you are Two Weapon Fighting. Simples.
Of course, you could decide not to use Flurry. In that case, yes, you could make an off-hand attack as part of a full attack action, but why bother?
I am wondering if a monk wielding a quarterstaff can wield it 2h or if they have to wield it as a double weapon when flurrying.
Whether you wield the staff 2H or as a double weapon is irrelevant during a Flurry. Sure, you can wield the staff two-handed, but you won't gain x1.5 Str. Just as it says, you apply your full Strength bonus "Whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands." Full Strength bonus is x1, not Strength And A Half. (That wording isn't as clear as it should be, but that's what it means.)
You might wield the staff two-handed to gain other advantages, but I can't think of any off the cuff. Straight by the book, you could argue that Power Attack would give more oomph, but I'd say the intent of the Monk rules disallows that. The beta two-handed weapon feats are gone, and there's no advantage in Pathfinder in opposing a Disarm two-handed.
Flurry is very nice now, but it's an all-in package, which uses all your attacks, and levels your Str bonus however you wield your monk weapons.
As an aside, one interesting, sometimes overlooked boon of Flurry is that you can Sunder as part of it. Sunder is usually an Attack Action, which is a Standard Action. The Monk gets to ignore that, and can Sunder with a single flurry attack. Pretty sweet,
As an aside, one interesting, sometimes overlooked boon of Flurry is that you can Sunder as part of it. Sunder is usually an Attack Action, which is a Standard Action. The Monk gets to ignore that, and can Sunder with a single flurry attack.
Same with trip and disarm. Both can be used "in place of a melee attack".
Zo
As an aside, one interesting, sometimes overlooked boon of Flurry is that you can Sunder as part of it. Sunder is usually an Attack Action, which is a Standard Action. The Monk gets to ignore that, and can Sunder with a single flurry attack.Same with trip and disarm. Both can be used "in place of a melee attack".
Zo
Same in that trip & disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, but not the same in that sunder is usually an "attack action." That's a big difference, if a hazy one.
ie: a Fighter can trip or disarm using one attack as part of his full attack. He can't sunder, since that's an Attack Action (a standard). The monk, flurrying, has access to all three.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. :)
No. It's not as tricky as all that. A Flurry is made "As if using the Two Weapon Fighting feat." As such, it incorporates your offhand attack as if you are Two Weapon Fighting.Okay, this one is tricky so bear with me.
Can the monk use a MSW and make an off-hand attack? (as part of a flurry)
Okay, very good. I hadn't even considered the concept that taking TWF would, in effect, be "stacking" the virtual TWF from FoB with a chosen feat of TWF. But it makes perfect sense.
Also this thread has clarified for me that MSWs are not USs and so they don't work with the amulet of mighty fists. Should I also assume then that a monk wearing gauntlets would not receive the benefit of the amulet either?
My opinion on the opening post:
You have the following options:
1. use a standard action - single strike
2. use a full round action for flurry of blows
3. use a full round action for regular full strike
the third one uses twf, the second one does not.
some things you can do:
- carry a monk weapon in your off hand and do flurry of blows - now I would let it be your decision, with what you do your flurry. you can hit your enemy with your right fist first and then strike with your off hand monk weapon, you can strike with your right hand first and kick the opponent as second attack, you can kick and use your monk weapon - free choice
- carry a quarterstaff (monk weapon) - again you have all options, you can kick and use your staff once, use the staff twice, kick two times...
- same goes for weapons that are no monk weapons except that you can´t combine the weapon with your natural weapon in a flurry - but if you have twf, your DM might allow you to do so if you carry a one handed weapon
gauntlets: if you wear some kind of armored glove, you don´t use natural weapons, so you don´t get the bonus of the amulet - and no monk unarmed damage bonus of course. The reason behind this is, the way a monk does damage is by striking vital areas with your ki - as a saolin monk breaks brickstones with his hand by hitting the right spot with the right concentration and the technique channeling your ki which is impossible if you put some hindering glove around your hand. nonetheless you can choose to kick your enemy instead, ignoring your gauntlet and applying all the boni of monk unarmed damage and amulet of mighty fists (ignoring the "fists" in the name ^^)
As an aside, one interesting, sometimes overlooked boon of Flurry is that you can Sunder as part of it. Sunder is usually an Attack Action, which is a Standard Action. The Monk gets to ignore that, and can Sunder with a single flurry attack.Same with trip and disarm. Both can be used "in place of a melee attack".
Zo
Same in that trip & disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, but not the same in that sunder is usually an "attack action." That's a big difference, if a hazy one.
ie: a Fighter can trip or disarm using one attack as part of his full attack. He can't sunder, since that's an Attack Action (a standard). The monk, flurrying, has access to all three.
Ahh. I was not aware of that. It probably won't come up in a game, but that's good to know anyway.
Zo
My thoughts on this...
Imagine a (multiclassed) monk with +6 "regular" BAB. Since it's greater than 5, it allows him a second iterative attack at +1. With a regular full attack he'll get +6/+1. With a regular full attack and TWF, he'll get +6/+6/+1 (but he'll get at least -2 penalty from TWF, so that's +4/+4/-1).
If he flurries, he gets the benefit of TWF with a fixed penalty (-2) and also an increased BAB since his monk levels count fully (if your build is Monk 1/Fighter 6, it's +7; if it's Monk 5/Fighter 3, it's +8; etc). Going with the Monk 1/Fighter 6, that would give you +5/+5/+0.
During said flurry, any attack can be made with either unarmed strikes or a monk weapon. You could decide to have a +5 attack with a Sai, a +5 attack with a kick, and a +0 attack with a nunchaku. Mix-n-match as you wish. Rinse and repeat.
$0.02
My thoughts on this...
Mix and match yes, the rest of it no. Flurry is "as if TWF". Your multiclasser with the TWF feat can Flurry, or he can use his feat. Using both at the same time is effectively using the TWF feat twice. So no, in the same way you couldn't apply Power Attack twice even if you took double the penalties.
(In fact, by the letter of the RAW, the Monk 1/Fighter 6 who flurries only gets to use his monk flurry BAB of +1. But that's loony. He would get +7 BAB, though, with the normal -2/-2 for "as if TWF", as laid out in the Monk table entry for Flurry. Total of +5/+5/+0 for the Monk 1/Fighter 6. A Monk 7 would get exactly the same.)
Also worth noting (as you do) that the Fighter/Monk couldn't use Flurry with his glaive/whatever - he'd still be limited to Monk weapons/unarmed strikes. So he might conceivably want the TWF feat for his reach weapon.
Mix and match yes, the rest of it no. Flurry is "as if TWF". Your multiclasser with the TWF feat can Flurry, or he can use his feat. Using both at the same time is effectively using the TWF feat twice. So no, in the same way you couldn't apply Power Attack twice even if you took double the penalties.
I was not saying he could use both, since (and you're right on this), they are quite the same. I was listing what his attack sequences would be in each case: full-attack with TWF vs. full-attack with flurry. I wrote "when he flurries, he gets the benefit of TWF" because even if he didn't have TWF, the Flurry gives him that benefit - for unarmed strikes and monk weapons only. He doesn't get that benefit on top of his already-gotten TWF feat.
(In fact, by the letter of the RAW, the Monk 1/Fighter 6 who flurries only gets to use his monk flurry BAB of +1. But that's loony. He would get +7 BAB, though, with the normal -2/-2 for "as if TWF", as laid out in the Monk table entry for Flurry. Total of +5/+5/+0 for the Monk 1/Fighter 6. A Monk 7 would get exactly the same.)
The debate about the monk's flurry BAB is still raging... and I'm on the side that lets the monk keep his well-earned full-BAB. And I see we agree on the computations, too. Did you just want to indicate the fact that a monk 7 would get the same?
Perhaps the player was more interested in a fighter's feats than a monk's progression, I don't know. He clearly indicated his character was multiclassed, but not his exact classes and levels. Hence my different computations.
Also worth noting (as you do) that the Fighter/Monk couldn't use Flurry with his glaive/whatever - he'd still be limited to Monk weapons/unarmed strikes. So he might conceivably want the TWF feat for his reach weapon.
I agree here too. In fact, our posts match quite well. Can you explain what you meant by "the rest of it no"?
My "rest of it no" appears to have been a misinterpretation - my mistake. I thought you were looking at doubling up TWP and Flurry, and of course should have realised you were not, since your calculations suggested otherwise.
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The debate about the monk's flurry BAB is still raging... and I'm on the side that lets the monk keep his well-earned full-BAB.
Given that the conversion guide shows Fighter BAB + Monk's Level to determine the FoB bonus, it seems pretty well settled for me. ;)
He clearly indicated his character was multiclassed, but not his exact classes and levels.
Thank you for your completeness (re: the calcs).
The PC is now Bbn2/Mnk2/Sor1/DD5, but the actual numbers I used were slightly different.
Thanks for the help, everyone. The player has been convinced, I believe. :)
Given that the conversion guide shows Fighter BAB + Monk's Level to determine the FoB bonus, it seems pretty well settled for me. ;)
I didn't see that. I was mainly expressing the fact that several long threads have been produced on this very issue.
Thank you for your completeness (re: the calcs).The PC is now Bbn2/Mnk2/Sor1/DD5, but the actual numbers I used were slightly different.
Thanks for the help, everyone. The player has been convinced, I believe. :)
You're welcome. And, the build... looking for the maximum strength? +4 from DD5, temporary +4 from Bbn, that's got to hit quite hard. Is he human-blooded, too, for an additional +2? With a starting 16 (needs Dex, Con, and Cha) and +2 from levels, that +7/+9 might compensates the overall weak BAB (+6 for a level 10 character). And he gets a lot of HP. And he can cast spells, too (Enlarge? Mage Armor? does he get a Monk's Robe, too?), although at caster level 4, some people would argue it's subpar. But, as I say, (1) have your fun regardless of the charop threads, and (2) to each his own.
I don't see where it leads, though, especially because he won't be able to use Flurry in Dragon Form. That 5th level in DD could be used for Sorc level for access to level 5 spells. Or for Monk level for access to improved movement and greater CMB (and a higher damage dice for the monk's [robe] progression). Or for Fighter for the extra feat.
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Well, he was originally human. But hari-kari'd on a dagger and was reincarnated as a bugbear! Talk about stat boosts!
So he typically runs around with a natural Str 28 and another +2 from a belt. More when he's raging and/or enlarged.
His plan is to go DD through the rest of the levels. I don't like alignment restrictions in terms of taking classes (hence both Bbn and Mnk), but I do enforce the whole "ex-monk" thing so he can't go back to that class. I expect 5 more levels of DD and if the CotCT AP is still going (I doubt it) he'd probably switch back to Sor.