
Shadow13.com |

Here's the situation:
In one dungeon, Darkmantles dropped from the ceiling to ambush PCs who walked directly underneath them.
The idea was to make the PCs roll Perception checks to spot the Darkmantles and avoid them.
Since this was a "trap", I also allowed Reflex saves so the PCs could dive out of the way.
If a PC failed both saves, then the Darkmantle would catch them flat footed and battle would ensue.
One PC decided to just hold his sword over his head and walk casually through the corridor, hoping to impale the Darkmantles as they dropped down.
Would holding a sword above your head be considered a ready action?
If not, what type of action would this be?
Would that PC have to roll an attack to successfully impale the Darkmantles?
Should this be treated as a charge and do double damage to the Darkmantles?
How would you guys handle this situation?

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I would probabl allow any weapon that can be readied against a charge, such as a Longspear to be used for that. For the sword though, I would just treat it as an Attack of Opertunity, like normal. Obviously, the PC's are aware of the DarkMantles. I probably would not allow a Reflex Save, that is what AC is for, but if they are aware, they wouldn't be Flat Footed.

Shadow13.com |

I would probabl allow any weapon that can be readied against a charge, such as a Longspear to be used for that. For the sword though, I would just treat it as an Attack of Opertunity, like normal.
Why would that be an AoO? The Darkmantle is actively engaging the PC as it falls, not just passing through a threatened square.
Then again, since Darkmantles have the ability to fly, they could probably maneuver and avoid the sword as they fall, so damage to the Darkmantle isn't assured. So maybe treating that as an AoO really is the ideal solution to determine whether damage is dealt.
I agree that it would be better if they had reach weapons to counter the "charge" of the Darkmantle dropping onto them, but I'd also think that a sword could stop an enemy from pouncing on and enveloping a player's head.

Caineach |

I would probabl allow any weapon that can be readied against a charge, such as a Longspear to be used for that. For the sword though, I would just treat it as an Attack of Opertunity, like normal. Obviously, the PC's are aware of the DarkMantles. I probably would not allow a Reflex Save, that is what AC is for, but if they are aware, they wouldn't be Flat Footed.
Any weapon can be readied against a charge. Some weapons can be set, however, and those get bonuses. It would be a readied action to attack the Darkmantle when it falls. They may also get an AoO if the darkmantle has to move into their square (which presumably they are, since it is falling onto them. edit: Though they would only need to be not suprized to get the AoO, not actually readying te action. The guy with the readied action would get 2 attacks.

Rake |

You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.

Laurefindel |

You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.
Like he said, except I'd allow a passive perception check during the Darkmantle's surprise round.
Those who succeed would be 1) not Flat-Footed and 2) allowed to roll for initiative. Readying an attack sounds like a reasonable action if you win ini, either that or tackle your Flat-Footed friend out of the way...
As for weapons that are logically suited to react in this situation, you could attribute a +2 circumstance bonus to initiative.
'findel

Caineach |

You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.
Then the players declare it to be combat: I move 30 ft and ready an action... repeat until monsters close and attack. This seems to be exactly what the player is attempting to do.

knightofstyx |

You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.
That's sort of true. Whenever a player says they want to ready an action then the game should enter initiative "mode". The DM shouldn't say "You can't do that because I didn't ask for initiative yet."

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Rake wrote:You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.That's sort of true. Whenever a player says they want to ready an action then the game should enter initiative "mode". The DM shouldn't say "You can't do that because I didn't ask for initiative yet."
You can Ready an Action outside of Initiative. All readying and action is is prepairing. If X happens, I do Y in reaction.

Shadow13.com |

So this is how it would go?
1) The player readies his sword above his head
2) Initiative is rolled for all players
3) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above
4) Darkmantles that are spotted with perception are avoided
5) Darkmantles that are not spotted drop on the players as they walk below
6) As the Darkmantles drop, they are added into the Initiative order accordingly
6) The player who readied his sword can now attack the Darkmantle that dropped on him
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Since the player was on the lookout for Darkmantles, he is not considered flat footed and receives no penalties to AC.
8) Battle proceeds as normal
Does that sound about right?

knightofstyx |

knightofstyx wrote:You can Ready an Action outside of Initiative. All readying and action is is prepairing. If X happens, I do Y in reaction.Rake wrote:You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.That's sort of true. Whenever a player says they want to ready an action then the game should enter initiative "mode". The DM shouldn't say "You can't do that because I didn't ask for initiative yet."
Here's the complete text. Not only does it not specify that it is usable outside of initiative order, it specifically relates the entire system to initiative.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

knightofstyx |

So this is how it would go?
1) The player readies his sword above his head
2) Initiative is rolled for all players
3) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above
4) Darkmantles that are spotted with perception are avoided
5) Darkmantles that are not spotted drop on the players as they walk below
6) As the Darkmantles drop, they are added into the Initiative order accordingly
6) The player who readied his sword can now attack the Darkmantle that dropped on him
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Since the player was on the lookout for Darkmantles, he is not considered flat footed and receives no penalties to AC.
8) Battle proceeds as normalDoes that sound about right?
+1

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Beckett wrote:Here's the complete text. Not only does it not specify that it is usable outside of initiative order, it specifically relates the entire system to initiative.knightofstyx wrote:You can Ready an Action outside of Initiative. All readying and action is is prepairing. If X happens, I do Y in reaction.Rake wrote:You can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for. Holding your sword above your head wouldn't entitle you to any special attack of opportunity or readied action. The only advantage to being aware of the presence of enemies would be in being able to make active Perception checks to spot them as you travel.That's sort of true. Whenever a player says they want to ready an action then the game should enter initiative "mode". The DM shouldn't say "You can't do that because I didn't ask for initiative yet."
Using a Readied Action sets the Initiative Order. By declairing you are taking an action , you start the initiative, and in this case, it would be a surprise round unless someone also does so in the same 6 second span.
Otherwise, ambushes and surprise attacks would be nearly impossible.
Group A sets up an ambush for group B. Group B walks into the middle of the ambush. Group A attacks, but waits for their lower initiative to actually come by. Now we roll initiative. Group B goes first. But since they don't even know they are "being attacked" Group B just walks right on by, 40 to 80 ft away. Group A now gets their "readied" ambush. Oh dang. . .
You can take "combat" actions outside of combat.
:) Anyway, that is the way I understand it.

knightofstyx |

Using a Readied Action sets the Initiative Order. By declairing you are taking an action , you start the initiative, and in this case, it would be a surprise round unless someone also does so in the same 6 second span.
Well, I think we're arguing the same point. What I'm trying to say is that by readying you are entering initiative and thus combat. I believe you are agreeing here.
For example, if the party had walked into the same scenario but the room/cave was empty of threats, then their readying of actions would still place them into initiative order and thus a combat state regardless of the fact that no enemies exist. (Of course, at this point the DM might say there's nothing there, or play off of the players' paranoia. Both very valid actions to take.)

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Beckett wrote:
Using a Readied Action sets the Initiative Order. By declairing you are taking an action , you start the initiative, and in this case, it would be a surprise round unless someone also does so in the same 6 second span.
Well, I think we're arguing the same point. What I'm trying to say is that by readying you are entering initiative and thus combat. I believe you are agreeing here.
For example, if the party had walked into the same scenario but the room/cave was empty of threats, then their readying of actions would still place them into initiative order and thus a combat state regardless of the fact that no enemies exist. (Of course, at this point the DM might say there's nothing there, or play off of the players' paranoia. Both very valid actions to take.)
Ok, I had thought that you meant you simply couldn'tdo it until after rolling initiative. I agree. :)

Laurefindel |

So this is how it would go?
1) The player readies his sword above his head
2) Initiative is rolled for all players
3) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above
4) Darkmantles that are spotted with perception are avoided
5) Darkmantles that are not spotted drop on the players as they walk below
6) As the Darkmantles drop, they are added into the Initiative order accordingly
6) The player who readied his sword can now attack the Darkmantle that dropped on him
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Since the player was on the lookout for Darkmantles, he is not considered flat footed and receives no penalties to AC.
8) Battle proceeds as normalDoes that sound about right?
I'd say
1) players mention that they keep and eye (and a sword) out for darkmantles/danger.
2) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above.
3A) Darkmantles are spotted. Players engage/ready/avoid the creatures.
3B) Darkmantles are not spotted. proceed to 4)
4) Darkmantles attack players. Since Darkmantles are 'on the move' players are allowed another perception check. Begins surprise round.
5) Everyone succeeding spot check is allowed to roll initiative and act during surprise round.
6) Active players beating darkmantle's ini ready an attack and hit before darkmantles charge.
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Players not active during surprise round are Flat-Footed. Ends surprise round.
8) Battle proceeds as normal
'findel

Rake |

Using a Readied Action sets the Initiative Order. By declairing you are taking an action , you start the initiative, and in this case, it would be a surprise round unless someone also does so in the same 6 second span.
Otherwise, ambushes and surprise attacks would be nearly impossible.
Group A sets up an ambush for group B. Group B walks into the middle of the ambush. Group A attacks, but waits for their lower initiative to actually come by. Now we roll initiative. Group B goes first. But since they don't even know they are "being attacked" Group B just walks right on by, 40 to 80 ft away. Group A now gets their "readied" ambush. Oh dang. . .
You can take "combat" actions outside of combat.
:) Anyway, that is the way I understand it.
I'm not sure how you're defining "combat actions", but you can take attack things (such as a door) or cast spells outside of initiative, yes. You cannot ready an action outside of initiative, however.
Initiative begins when combat begins (and not vice versa).
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
"Turns" and "rounds" are not tracked outside of initiative (though time is). In the scenario you present above, the surprise round begins when the ambushers attack (assuming they successfully keep the party unaware of their presence).
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Emphasis mine. As you can see, the hapless party would not move forty feet down the hall before the ambusher's initiative comes around. The ambushers simply take their surprise round actions on their turns, in order, and then the first round of combat begins.

Rake |

1) The player readies his sword above his head
2) Initiative is rolled for all players
3) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above
4) Darkmantles that are spotted with perception are avoided
5) Darkmantles that are not spotted drop on the players as they walk below
6) As the Darkmantles drop, they are added into the Initiative order accordingly
6) The player who readied his sword can now attack the Darkmantle that dropped on him
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Since the player was on the lookout for Darkmantles, he is not considered flat footed and receives no penalties to AC.
8) Battle proceeds as normalDoes that sound about right?
No, not quite. Turns and rounds are never tracked outside of combat, and characters do not recieve a passive Perception check to notice hidden creatures each round (unless those hidden creatures move) However, Laurefindel has it right (see below):
1) players mention that they keep and eye (and a sword) out for darkmantles/danger.
2) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above.
3A) Darkmantles are spotted. Players engage/ready/avoid the creatures.
3B) Darkmantles are not spotted. proceed to 4)
4) Darkmantles attack players. Since Darkmantles are 'on the move' players are allowed another perception check. Begins surprise round.
5) Everyone succeeding spot check is allowed to roll initiative and act during surprise round.
6) Active players beating darkmantle's ini ready an attack and hit before darkmantles charge.
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Players not active during surprise round are Flat-Footed. Ends surprise round.
8) Battle proceeds as normal

Caineach |

Shadow13.com wrote:1) The player readies his sword above his head
2) Initiative is rolled for all players
3) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above
4) Darkmantles that are spotted with perception are avoided
5) Darkmantles that are not spotted drop on the players as they walk below
6) As the Darkmantles drop, they are added into the Initiative order accordingly
6) The player who readied his sword can now attack the Darkmantle that dropped on him
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Since the player was on the lookout for Darkmantles, he is not considered flat footed and receives no penalties to AC.
8) Battle proceeds as normalDoes that sound about right?
No, not quite. Turns and rounds are never tracked outside of combat, and characters do not recieve a passive Perception check to notice hidden creatures each round (unless those hidden creatures move) However, Laurefindel has it right (see below):
Laurefindel wrote:1) players mention that they keep and eye (and a sword) out for darkmantles/danger.
2) The players slowly proceed down the hallway, rolling perception to spot Darkmantles lurking in the shadows above.
3A) Darkmantles are spotted. Players engage/ready/avoid the creatures.
3B) Darkmantles are not spotted. proceed to 4)
4) Darkmantles attack players. Since Darkmantles are 'on the move' players are allowed another perception check. Begins surprise round.
5) Everyone succeeding spot check is allowed to roll initiative and act during surprise round.
6) Active players beating darkmantle's ini ready an attack and hit before darkmantles charge.
7) If the Darkmantle survives the readied attack, it can then attack the player. Players not active during surprise round are Flat-Footed. Ends surprise round.
8) Battle proceeds as normal
The problem is your definition of combat. You define it as when someone attacks. I define it as when someone takes a combat action. My combat action in the suprize round, before I enter the room with the darkmantles, is to ready an action. I have started combat before I may even know an enemy is there. We are now in initiative.

knightofstyx |

Caineach wrote:The problem is your definition of combat. You define it as when someone attacks...You are, of course, free to define it however you like, but initiative begins when one party becomes aware of an opponent. The rules are black-and-white on this issue.
The OP's issue wasn't about when combat begins, rather if the player could ready an action outside of combat. The issue then evolved to state that if the player readied an action against the darkmantles' attacks, would it begin combat?
Strictly interpreting the rules as Rake states them, in order for the players to ready an action to impale the darkmantles they would have already had to notice the darkmantles somehow, thereby putting them in combat, right? Therefore initiative would have to be rolled the moment the players noticed the darkmantles before they every have the chance to ready in the first place?

Caineach |

What exactly is the difference between active and passive perception?
If a party is moving down a hallway full of trap floor panels, would they have to roll a perception check for each square they step on, or would one perception check keep them covered for x amount of squares?
If players have a reason to believe a situation is dangerous, they can actively look for traps, hidden monsters, or whatever. Then they get a roll. Passive perception assumes they take 10, and they get that the rest of the time.

Rake |

What exactly is the difference between active and passive perception?
If a party is moving down a hallway full of trap floor panels, would they have to roll a perception check for each square they step on, or would one perception check keep them covered for x amount of squares?
Players are entitled to a passive Perception check whenever something is using Stealth to hide from them.
An active Perception check is a move action. Players can make acive Perception checks as they travel, if they like, but doing so would reduce their rate of movement by half.

Rake |

Strictly interpreting the rules as Rake states them, in order for the players to ready an action to impale the darkmantles they would have already had to notice the darkmantles somehow, thereby putting them in combat, right? Therefore initiative would have to be rolled the moment the players noticed the darkmantles before they every have the chance to ready in the first place?
It's a lot simpler than that. You simply can't ready an action outside of combat (i.e. before combat begins).
Players who make a Perception check to notice hidden darkmantles can attack them (thus calling for initiative). If the darkmantles have also noticed the players, the darkmantles roll for initiative as well at this time. If the darkmantles have not noticed the players, then the players are entitled to a surprise round.
A character that wins initiaive (or acts during a surprise round in which the darkmantles are caught unaware, and thus do not act), could easily ready an action to attack the darkmantles should they notice or attack).
A character that is on his guard for ambush is likely making active Perception checks, but no character can ready an action outside of combat. These rules are nothing new, and have not changed since the days of 3.5 (though a prestige class called the Bloodhound did have a special ability called Always Ready, that allowed him to ready an action outside of combat against a quarry that he is tracking down).

Shadow13.com |

Players are entitled to a passive Perception check whenever something is using Stealth to hide from them.
An active Perception check is a move action. Players can make acive Perception checks as they travel, if they like, but doing so would reduce their rate of movement by half.
Is a passive perception check something that the GM secretly rolls?

Rake |

Is a passive perception check something that the GM secretly rolls?
Typically it is, yes.
Some DMs assume the players are taking 10 on these checks, and others (like me) let the players roll them, but very often ask for Perception checks for no reason whatsoever, in order to keep the PCs in the dark without taking the rolls out of their hands.

Shadow13.com |

Shadow13.com wrote:Is a passive perception check something that the GM secretly rolls?
Typically it is, yes.
Some DMs assume the players are taking 10 on these checks, and others (like me) let the players roll them, but very often ask for Perception checks for no reason whatsoever, in order to keep the PCs in the dark without taking the rolls out of their hands.
I hate to ask for perception checks because that automatically puts them on the alert.
I'll sometimes ask for perception checks for no reason, simply as a red herring, but I feel that slows the game down.Unless the players tell me they're making active perception checks, I do not divulge any clues.
I've never tried the passive perception checks.
I'll tinker with that and see how it goes.