Does anybody else feel as if the barbarian is lacking at higher levels? I'm not necessarily talking about pure power, the barbarian is only slightly worse than the fighter in toe to toe combat and has a few other tricks up his sleeve that make him an alternative worth considering. The damage output is still a problem when compared to the other full base attack bonus classes, though.
I'm talking about class abilities. After the barbarian gains damage reduction at level 7, he gains no new features, only improvements to existing ones that keep them from becoming useless. This is all well and good, but all the other classes gain new and exciting features, spells and abilities all the way up to level 20. Even the fighter gets Armor and Weapon Mastery at levels 19 and 20 which are capstones you can look forward to. The barbarian only gains improvements to his current abilities and his capstone is greater rage, which slightly improves an ability he's had since level 1.
The barbarian does have rage powers which make this problem slightly more bearable but most of these rage powers are attainable at lower levels and when you reach the higher levels you will most likely have chosen all the good ones, since a large portion of the rage power list is pretty useless. Greater rage powers, similar to the advanced rogue talents which are attainable at level 10 and up could be pretty cool, but unfortunately there are none except fearless rage. The ability to upgrade useless rage powers like powerful blow and surprise accuracy could also be cool (have them affect every attack in a full attack), but there are none except for a few such as Swift Foot, Improved Damage Reduction and Night Vision (LOL).
I'm not saying the barbarian is a bad class, I think it's pretty good actually, although a bit sub-par when compared to the other full base attack bonus classes. It's just that there is very little has to look forward to at higher levels when compared to the other classes. Am I sorely mistaken or do you guys agree?
Completely agreed. I raised said questions before, cause I think they are very sub par with other full Bab classes too. But, hopefully, this will be adressed in the following book with more rage powers and maybe one or 2 feats.
I think a lot of the problem with the Barbarian is that his strengths at low level (High HPs, High Mobility) are less of a factor in high-level play.
High Mobility (40 ft base speed) is less of a factor once mithral armors, mounts, flight become more commonplace in the game. So much of high level play is based upon getting sustained full attacks so being a striker type is less efficient. Vital Strike helps the barbarian charger a bunch but the TWF Fighter can often leave the barbarian in the dust in terms of DPR.
The Barbarian's other big advantage is high HPs but +1 HP per level average isn't that much of an improvement and in many ways rage HPs can be very problematic (because in combat healing blows).
Now if rage HPs were removed first then the Barbarian would avoid the insta-death issue and the high HP/DR of the barbarian would negate the heavy armor advantage of the fighter some.
Some of the rage powers are also problematic. Being able to go low light or darkvision is not something that you want limited to a handful of rounds a day. If low light vision was permanent I'd actually consider taking it.
I really hate pounce as an ability but it seems like the barbarian would really benefit from it.
I also dislike that barbarians are basically channeled into 1 build type because of limited feats. Falchion + Imp Crit + Vital Strike really seems to be the only viable maximized strategy and honestly the fighter can do it so much better because he's got more feats.
Rage powers should be buffed quite a bit (some should become passive always on regardless of rage) and the barbarian should probably receive some bonus feats (maybe 3-4 bonus feats). Otherwise it's more of an NPC class.
Animal Fury: bonus attack @ -5 without penalty to other attacks, stacks w/ Haste, bonus to Grapple & free attack (@ Full BAB) on top of Grapple which can be done as Readied Action (which even Grt Grapple can't achieve), great vs. Spellcasters
Guarded Stance: +3 Dodge AC @12th level (stacks w/ everything) for at least most of a fight.
Knockback: Bullrush on top of normal attack. Great for PREVENTING getting full-attacked.
Strength Surge: great, esp. in combo w/ Knockback
Roused Anger: great for maximizing use of 1/rage powers. (1 sorceror level w/ familiar & UMD to remove fatigue being #1 strategy there)
Surprise Accuracy: not the #1 power, but I would say it is most useful in fact for MANEUVERS: Use this for Grapple Attack, use Strength Surge for when they try to escape.
Unexpected Strike @8th: AoO on Threat Entry, works vs. 5' step. In combo w/ Knockback/Strength Surge, insanely great for preventing Full Attacks.
Clear Mind @ 8th: yup
Mighty Swing @12th: Auto-Confirm a Crit. Most useful on lower iterative attacks, making the most of full attack.
Those last 3 are all only available after 8th level, so I just can't believe anybody who suggests there isn't anything worthwhile after 7th level. Seriously, Unexpected Strike is off-the-hook crazy good. And you need *18 levels* of Barbarian to get all those Powers. Taking 3 levels of Fighter along the way, for Bonus Feats and Armor Training 1 so you can Tumble in "Medium" Armor (Adamantine BP/ Mithril FP) seems quite the reasonable build, but you are NOT going to run out of worthwhile Powers to take (if you want to Grapple, 1 level of Monk is a decent approach as well w/ IUS, Imp Grapple and all Good Saves). Granted, these are most of the decent Powers (Terrible Howl is good if you or an ally can make enemies Shaken, e.g. w/ Dazzling Display) but guess what: APG is set to release a whole bunch of new Powers!
If "So much of high level play is based upon getting sustained full attacks", PREVENTING opponents from getting full attacks would seem like a damn good strategy. And Mighty Swing lets you convert 100% of Critical Threats on lower Iteratives into actual Crits.
I do agree that most of the Powers I DIDN'T mention, (Raging Swimmer, Night Vision, etc) are NPC fodder. But hey, if it weren't for NPC's there wouldn't be much of a game, would there? :-)
Nah - you've got some good combo-ideas there ... but essentially you side-stepped the issue: many rage-powers are fundamentally underwhelming.
This, IMO, should NEVER be the case for a class-feature. They should always be something exceptionally cool. Low Light vision ONLY while raging ... totally underwhelming. Bumping that to "always on" ... better. At least now you don't have to spring into a Rage to see a little better at night. Seriously - who the hell's going to do that? It doesn't even make sense.
"Hey guys, I think somethings out there ... RAAAAAAHHHHHH"
*party waits while Barbarian charges headlong into the forest*
*Barbarian returns - still screaming*
"RAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!" *ends rage - becomes fatigued* "Well *huff* *huff* looks like there was a rabbit running around out there ... I chased it off, though ..."
*Thwak!!! Sound of arrow string launched and hits the Barbarian*
"Great job! Looks like you've managed to attract the attention of the local orcs ... that previously had NO idea we were here until you went running off into the forest, GENIUS!!!"
*party readies weapons for combat as quickly as they can*
Sure - hyperbole and worst case scenario - but how ELSE is that rage ability going to prove useful? You don't Rage to go and scout (a key advantage to those enhanced vision modes) - it's counter intuitive and foolish.
I'm taking a look at the various abilties now and will come up with some ideas of how to beef 'em up a bit. Nothing crazy, mind you, but just to give them some actual utility.
On a side note: Barbarian's would/should TOTALLY gain access to the Pounce ability. It's probably the ONLY base-class that is feral-enough to merit it, IMO, and as such it's a GREAT contender for high-level "rage power" status, IMO.
I didn't "side step" that point at all:
"I do agree that most of the Powers I DIDN'T mention, (Raging Swimmer, Night Vision, etc) are NPC fodder."
I did show that you can take a pure Barbarian all the way to 20th level with solid, great Powers. Sure, there's some underwhelming Powers, but that is a problem with those specific powers, not the Barbarian class as a whole which is the premise of this thread. Is the Fighter a crappy class because there may be some crappy Combat Feats out there? NO, because you don't have to take those and there's plenty of Feats that ARE good.
And FYI, the sentiment that MANY Rage Powers are under-whelming has been acknowledged by Paizo, and the new Powers coming in the APG can be expected to compare with the GOOD Powers in Core rather than the weak Powers. Honestly, having some "meh" Rage Power, just like there are some "meh" Feats, is GOOD because it allows for NPCs with more staying power and 'generic' oomph without cramming them full of wu-xia ninja powers. Being swarmed by "Cliff Clan" Barbarians swarming you on their cliff is a great, cinematic encounter, though the power is so situational and easily simulated by magic that a PC might not think it's worth it. Likewise, giving an entire Barbarian raiding party Paladin-class Saving Throws via Superstitious (whose drawback doesn't apply if their Casting support is an Evil Cleric who don't have heals, or who doesn't focus on in-Combat Ally Buffs). Trying to subject game design to ONLY PC-perspective power maximization doesn't really seem the best idea to me.
I agree with some statements here. Getting a mere +1 to hit or damage to a single attack for the cost of a swift action. It should be for the entire round, if not the entire time. I would also say that they should top out weapon training, as the bonus is rather temporary, but I guess this would be balanced with the fact that they can be applied to any weapon.
Perhaps the Advanced Players Guide will add some interesting rage powers
The main problem with most powers is the time expenditure and the per rage uses.
Roused Anger: Sorry, don't want a power that becomes useless as I level.
Surprise Accuracy: Seriously? That's one of the worse powers ever, once per rage for such a ridiculous bonus? Please.
Unexpected Strike @8th: It's good, once per rage is lame.
Mighty rage is not nearly as good as it sounds, once per rage only at 12th level and you only confirm a critical that most likely you would confirm anyway? No thanks.
I love barbarians, they are my favorite class, but there are only a handful of useful powers and even with those you have pretty much one and only one build to choose from (to be effective that is). Even then, you still are behind any of the other Full Bab classes in combat situations.
I would still play one cause it's fun, but it lacks sheer power.
Perhaps the Advanced Players Guide will add some interesting rage powers
As cool as that would be, it doesn't fix the ones we have now.
Perhaps the Advanced Players Guide will add some interesting rage powersAs cool as that would be, it doesn't fix the ones we have now.
It would help if they got upgrades in the form of further rage powers, though.
It would help if they got upgrades in the form of further rage powers, though.Perhaps the Advanced Players Guide will add some interesting rage powersAs cool as that would be, it doesn't fix the ones we have now.
Like a rage power tree? That could work if the new ones are worthwhile enough to make up for the lack of their predecessors.
The druid and the monk suffer from that "diminishing returns" feeling too, IMO. After level 12, say.
WARNING: LOT of text to go through here ... WARNING, WARNING!!! I may bore you to death!!!! ;-)
@ Quandry: the side-step wasn't what you said - sure, you acknowledged there were sub-par options there.
That wasn't the point of "side-step" on my end, though. It was to side-step by way of not providing anything useful for those powers.
I'm going over them all for my current game on a different site and I'm working them all over pretty hard. Especially the stuff that Xum mentions about those abilities - awesome ... until you realize they're 1/rage period! That sucks big time and really messes with the utility/function of their powers. It's almost like ... spell-slots in how they're used - only X/day, only no where near as beneficial and some of it damn-right laughable for that kind of accessibility, IMO.
So, some ideas: http://www.barroks-tower.net/tower/viewtopic.php?f=273&t=6382
{link to other site if anyone's interested in following it}
Fearless Rage - I can't see how this has a level 12 requisite. It makes NO sense. Especially given the (as written) PF Bravery at 3rd level, and the Paladin's outright immunity by level 3 as well. Ergo, the new thing is this - NO minimum level for this effect. It also provides immunity to the "panic" condition as an additional feature.
Guarded Stance - No activation here. I can't see how a guy fueled by fury is going to stop to consider the "how" and "where" of his movements. It doesn't really fit, IMO. He already gets a -2 on AC when raging, so this doesn't even counter that until level 6 anyway. It really doesn't grant *much* at all, so adding "move" actions doesn't fit the feel overall of what a barbarian should be. No move action! It also will last as long as the Rage itself does. What's more, this will also take the place/combine effect with "Rolling Dodge" (ie: it grants the dodge bonus to melee and ranged attacks).
Increased Damage Reduction - two changes (both still work ONLY in Rage). #1 = maintain the level 8 requirement for this. It's already limited by a required Rage state. #2 = no limit on how many times this can stack. If a barbarian wants to blow the majority (or all) of his rage powers on this - go for it. No skin off anyone's nose, BUT he's passing up tremendous versatility by doing this.
Intimidating Glare - This is a FREE action, and the duration is for 2d4 rounds +1 round/5 points by which the DC is exceeded. It also adds a bonus to the Intimidate skill check = to +1/4 barbarian levels gained.
Low Light Vision - If a race that already has this as a racial feature takes this ability, they double their current range with this feature (mostly it'll be +60'). In addition, for those without these racial features innate - they gain this racial feature as an innate power that is always on (regardless of Rage state). In addition, this gains a +30' range increment for every 6 levels of Barbarian taken.
Mighty Swing - no limit on uses/rage. It still will be a level 12 minimum, however (Fighter's get Greater Weapon Specialization, Barbarians get auto-crits when raging).
Clear Mind - It can be used 1/rage when initially taken, and improves at a rate of +1/4 levels thereafter (max of 4 uses/rage at level 20).
Moment of Clarity - It can be used 1+ wis modifier rounds per rage. Also gains additional uses at every 6 full Barbarian levels taken.
Night Vision - same as Low Light Vision. Double range for any race that already has this method of vision. In addition, for those without these racial features innate - they gain this racial feature as an innate power that is always on (regardless of Rage state). In addition, this gains a +30' range increment for every 6 levels of Barbarian taken.
Renewed Vigor - add con bonus (modified for rage) to each die rolled for recovery (vs. 1 time added) more like a full HD recovery than a healing spell. Additionally, roll d12's vs. d8 for recovery.
Strength Surge - Power can be used a number of times = to Wis bonus per round (ie: a +2 wis modifier = 2 times per rage). I'm tieing this to "force of will" here. Additionally, it gains more uses as the Barbarian gains in levels. +1 use per rage for every full 6 Barbarian class levels.
Swift Foot - this grants 5' increments for every 4 Barbarian levels taken. No other changes (though additional selections can increase the increments from 5' to 10', but nothing more than 10' increments}.
Terrifying Howl - Panicked for 1d4 +1 rounds, and THEN are shaken for 2d4 rounds after. This is also reduced to a MOVE action instead of a standard action.
Animal Fury - Instead of 1d3/1d4/1d6 progression of damage for the bite, it'll run 1d4/1d6 and 1d8 for S -> M -> L creature size based damage. In addition, the damage will increase by 1 step on the weapon damage by size progression chart. The increases take place at levels 7, 13, and 16. It is an increase of one step at each of those levels. {As normal, you can take the multi-attack feat to reduce the -5 to hit to a -2 instead}
Internal Fortitude - works as is stated, but also grants a bonus on all Fortitude saves equal to 1/4 of the Barbarian's current level. Of course - only while raging.
Knockback - any target successfully moved in this manner will provoke AoO's from any zones it crosses as a result of the movement. The initiator, however, remains safe from any AoO's for attempting the bull rush.
No Escape - works as described, but it is usable 1 + 1 per 4 Barbarian levels of the character. In addition, this ability subsumes the "Unexpected Strike" ability, and thus provides more options for how this is to be used in any given rage-powered encounter. It can be used to step up and stay with an enemy target, or it can be used to strike out at targets that simply enter your threat-range as an AoO (where one would not normally be allowed). As always, this is only while raging.
Quick Reflexes - this will grant 1 additional AoO/round when first taken, and then grants additional AoO's at a rate of 1/5 barbarian levels. Again, while raging only.
Scent - functions as described and gains 30' to all range increments for every 8 barbarian levels taken. (+30 at 8th, and +60 at 16th). This also functions outside of rage and is gained as a permanent feature for characters that select it.
New Rage Powers
Here are the new Rage Power options on the table.
Blindsight - Must be 16th level in barbarian and have the Scent rage power already. Character's sense of smell becomes so keen that they are treated as having blindsight at the equivalent smelling ranges that are granted by the scent ability. Like scent, this is also a permanent class-feature.
Fast Healing - Must have the Renewed Vigor rage power, and be a 12th level barbarian before allowed to take this rage power. The barbarian gains Fast Healing - 1 while in a rage. This can be taken multiple times, each one adding 1 to the total amount of hp healed per round.
Ferocity - must be a 4th level barbarian in order to take this feat. It allows full combat to take place up to -Con value. It can be taken up to 3 additional times, further allowing the barbarian to fight for up to -3 x Con in HP. At which point, the barbarian will drop dead with no chance of stilization or healing magics to work (ie: Resurrection and Raise Dead become the only way to "heal" the barbarian).
Frightful Presence - Must be a 16th level barbarian and have both Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl before allowed to take this rage power. When first entering a rage, barbarians with this rage power project an aura of fear to any sentient creatures within 60' of a lower HD. It functions, in all ways, like the ability as described in the Monster Manual. Replace "HD" references with "barbarian levels" and it will work equivalently.
Pounce - must be a 12th level barbarian to be allowed to take this option. It functions exactly as the ability described in the monster manual - full attack after a charge/as part of a charge.
Powerful Charge - characters gain a "charge" attack bonus on damage when inflicting a charge in a rage state. The initial bonus is size-dependent, and then increases from there. S = 2d4; M = 2d6; L = 2d8. The damage increases by step in damage progression for every 6 full barbarian levels the character has attained.
Rage Focused Movement - {this eliminates and replaces Raging Climber, Leaper, and Swimmer entirely} when raging, the barbarian adds her level as an enhancement bonus on all Climb, Acrobatics, and Swim checks.
Surprising Potency - this ability combines and replaces both the "surprise accuracy" and "powerful blow" abilities. It provides the benefit of both at the same time (bonus to hit and damage). It is initially available 1/rage state, but increases at a rate of 1/4 full barbarian levels accumulated. Additionally, instead of the bonuses applying to a single attack, they apply to all attacks made on the round it is used.
Totemic Rage - this is to represent the various gods and nature spirits many barbarians worship. Some have managed to include and tap into these forces to aid in their combat styles. This grants the use of some sort of totemic animal spirit or divine energy to be channeled into the barbarian as he/she fights. The character chooses 1 of the following element-like effects and it is added to any strikes he/she makes while in a rage-state. Energy Types: Acid, Fire/heat, Ice/cold, Electricity, or sonics. It adds 1d6 worth of the energy type when first taken, and adds an additional d6 of the damage type for every full 8 barbarian levels the character has. This can only be taken 1 time and will forever determine the barbarians totemic affinity.
Totemic Resistance - this is to represent the various gods and nature spirits many barbarians worship. Some have managed to include and tap into these forces to aid in their combat styles. This grants the use of some sort of totemic animal spirit or divine energy to be channeled into the barbarian as he/she fights. In this case, the barbarian uses the energy as a protective barrier to the particular energy type indicated and gains a Resistance ability while raging against the particular element. Energy Types: Acid, Fire/Heat, Ice/Cold, Electricity, or Sonics. The barbarian gains a Resistance value of 5 for every full 5 levels of barbarian he has taken. This can only be taken 1 time and will forever determine the barbarians totemic affinity.
NOTE: This isn't necessarily original stuff here as I mined the Beta for how some of this stuff was supposed to work. Ideally, the Beat had the right of it for how these *should* have worked - "Rage Points" was a much neater way to have the powers and keep them "on reserve" to be used as much as you needed. The translation to final PF release ... really screwed the pooch on that front. The powers were kept, but their utility went out the window. I just tried to bring some of it back w/out resorting to Betas "rage points" though they work much better, IMO.
I'm going over them all for my current game on a different site and I'm working them all over pretty hard. Especially the stuff that Xum mentions about those abilities - awesome ... until you realize they're 1/rage period! That sucks big time and really messes with the utility/function of their powers. It's almost like ... spell-slots in how they're used - only X/day, only no where near as beneficial and some of it damn-right laughable for that kind of accessibility, IMO.
Actually once you get tireless rage, you can perform those rage powers every round. Your rage at the start of your turn, end your rage before the turn is over, and rage again at the start of your next turn. Rinse and repeat. You then can use a rage power in every turn, even if they are 1/rage.
That's really good! It's just a tad too much. As I said I love the Barbarian and I want them to be good, but this is a too good in some instances.
Swift Foot - this grants 5' increments for every 4 Barbarian levels taken. No other changes (though additional selections can increase the increments from 5' to 10', but nothing more than 10' increments}.
I would have to disagree here; I would make it untyped rather than enhancement.
Actually once you get tireless rage, you can perform those rage powers every round. Your rage at the start of your turn, end your rage before the turn is over, and rage again at the start of your next turn. Rinse and repeat. You then can use a rage power in every turn, even if they are 1/rage.I'm going over them all for my current game on a different site and I'm working them all over pretty hard. Especially the stuff that Xum mentions about those abilities - awesome ... until you realize they're 1/rage period! That sucks big time and really messes with the utility/function of their powers. It's almost like ... spell-slots in how they're used - only X/day, only no where near as beneficial and some of it damn-right laughable for that kind of accessibility, IMO.
And that is completely preposterous. Any DM I know wouldn't allow something as ludicrous as this. If they would they should REALLY think about the consequences, cause there are many.
NOTE: This isn't necessarily original stuff here as I mined the Beta for how some of this stuff was supposed to work. Ideally, the Beat had the right of it for how these *should* have worked - "Rage Points" was a much neater way to have the powers and keep them "on reserve" to be used as much as you needed. The translation to final PF release ... really screwed the pooch on that front. The powers were kept, but their utility went out the window. I just tried to bring some of it back w/out resorting to Betas "rage points" though they work much better, IMO.
AGREED!! The points were much better, and they did completely mess things up here.
And that is completely preposterous. Any DM I know wouldn't allow something as ludicrous as this. If they would they should REALLY think about the consequences, cause there are many.
Oh for Pete's sake. You think it's overpowered to use those modestly useful rage abilities at will starting at LEVEL 17? When clerics and wizards are performing miracles without breaking a sweat or are gating in solars to do their dirty work?
Yeah - any "crunch" you wanna toss at me - go for it. This is really rough draft stuff and in NEED of refinement, so I'm all for it.
And that whole "tireless" rage thing I thought of ... and dismissed. waiting for 17 levels to get to actually use your rage powers ... when in a rage??? It doesn't wash. Sure, there's the rage power of Roused Anger, but you then end up exhausted, and you can only do it (wait for it) ... 1 time per rage. Yeah ...
Honestly, the powers *as written* still seem to have the underlying "rage points" in mind for how they operate. Otherwise, why would/should a 17th level barbarain need to drop out of his rage and only be *in* a rage when it's his turn? It's just crazy!
My main goal is to make things useful consistently and NOT have to rely on either layering up multiple rage powers dedicated to the same thing (ie: blowing rage power slots), or dropping out of/not making fullest use of the whole point of the class ... ie: the rage.
Xum - where's it "too good"? No sas, here - as I said, rough draft and looking for any/all feedback possible.
And that is completely preposterous. Any DM I know wouldn't allow something as ludicrous as this. If they would they should REALLY think about the consequences, cause there are many.Oh for Pete's sake. You think it's overpowered to use those modestly useful rage abilities at will starting at LEVEL 17? When clerics and wizards are performing miracles without breaking a sweat or are gating in solars to do their dirty work?
The power jump is just too much, and the fact that a Barbarian will be in and out of rage several times is insanelly ridiculous to even speculate.
Xum - where's it "too good"? No sas, here - as I said, rough draft and looking for any/all feedback possible.
I'm gonna have to get back to you on that. Gonna reread it all and write something about it, and post it later, ok?
Just take a read on it and compare to the other classes, not only to the way Barbarian is now. I've been traped on this more than once, getting something that was very low powered and trying to make it balanced I made it OP, it's a common mistake, if u take a look at it with calm you will see most of it yourself.I'll try my best to add something to it though.
I thought the design goal was to make the barbarian the best damage dealing machine in melee, when raging (baring special paladin and ranger boni on particular cases). It used to be the case over the fighter only because of the rage bonus to STR which couldn't be duplicated. Now the fighter gets to outdamage him if only due to his weapon damage upgrade via his class feature.
The fighter flat-out wins even when the barb rages. It's kindda sad. The rage abilities, I agree with most who have posted, add small tactical options to the barb but don't allow him to shine where he should.
Pounce is an interresting idea, yet it would be a huge increase in rage powers compared to the one presented so far.
The non-raging barbarian is pathetic.
Nothing new to bring to the table, just thought i'd raise my voice and share my feelings to the already well expressed perceptions of others.
-Jelly
I thought the design goal was to make the barbarian the best damage dealing machine in melee, when raging (baring special paladin and ranger boni on particular cases). It used to be the case over the fighter only because of the rage bonus to STR which couldn't be duplicated. Now the fighter gets to outdamage him if only due to his weapon damage upgrade via his class feature.
The fighter flat-out wins even when the barb rages. It's kindda sad. The rage abilities, I agree with most who have posted, add small tactical options to the barb but don't allow him to shine where he should.
Pounce is an interresting idea, yet it would be a huge increase in rage powers compared to the one presented so far.
The non-raging barbarian is pathetic.
Nothing new to bring to the table, just thought i'd raise my voice and share my feelings to the already well expressed perceptions of others.
-Jelly
Agreed on all acounts.
Pounce is one of the Overpowered things that's there. Maybe if it was once per rage ... :)
Jeez ... once per rage again, eh? lol
What's really so bad with this option for this guy?
Here's what I was thinking about/looking over - the barbarian as the "savage" of the game classes. The real "feral" guy in the group, I took that idea and went to the Monster Manual to look to see what kinds of things would fit him best. How could we make "feral" a class-feature-like quality, and that's where some of that comes into play.
On Pounce - it's a charge with a full attack ... not *that* bad. It would mean the barbarian is the only character class that can really do this (barring magic-devices) and would at least make him a top-damage dealer in the charge department on account of it, no?
I'm wondering where the "that's too powerful" thing comes into play? You can only charge one target one time, no? For this to be used more than 1/rage or whatever, you've got to be able to keep running at other people vs. being surrounded or constantly in a melee with someone.
I don't know about the rest of you but popping in and out of rage every round at level 17 just seems wrong to me, I personally wouldn't allow it. I don't think it was designed to be that way, either.
I don't know about the rest of you but popping in and out of rage every round at level 17 just seems wrong to me, I personally wouldn't allow it. I don't think it was designed to be that way, either.
I feel the same on that. It's just weird, even if *possible* and may reflect a flaw in design that probably should have been picked up on in play-testing honestly.
In addition, there is a rage power (roused anger) that is fully REPLACED by the level 17 ability ... so if you ever use a Rage Power slot to use it, you're totally boned on that selection if you get to level 17 - pointless, in fact, even worse since, IF you use it, you're more penalized than the Tireless Rage would be. lol!
Yeah ... definitely some things that have fallen through the cracks everywhere on the Barbarian.
Here's hoping that the new book will plug all these holes up!
In the mean time, however, "House-Rule City, here I come!!!"
:-)
Well how about this, we look at what the barbarian has, in general and not just in combat, over other classes.
They do get a D12 hit die, and 4+int skills.
Well how about this, we look at what the barbarian has, in general and not just in combat, over other classes.
They do get a D12 hit die, and 4+int skills.
I already addressed that in my original post. My primary problem with barbarians isn't how powerful/effective they are, but how boring their progression at higher levels is. Instead of gaining new and exciting abilities like every other class their old abilities get better. That said, they're also sub-par in combat when compared to other classes.
Well how about this, we look at what the barbarian has, in general and not just in combat, over other classes.
They do get a D12 hit die, and 4+int skills.
Very true. Yet, from a combat perspective, IMO, the D12 comes with the DR as a fair trade for the lesser AC, as compared to the fighter.
And as far as combat is concerned, leaving this defense argument behind, we are left with small tactical benefits (such as the rage powers, the uncanny dodge, the speed increase) *on equal footing* with the fighter feat arsenal.
This leaves the offensive options to be compared. As is, the barbarian of mid to high level is less of a direct threat than is the fighter in terms of DPR. Even when raging. And I don't think this was the design goal as previously stated. The raging barb is supposed to be the number 1 melee damage dealer as far as non-specific (paladin and ranger boni)encounters are concerned. This is not the case. It all boils down to being a sub-par choice compared to the fighter in the area where he is supposed to be the best.
You are right, the trapsense, the skills pts, all come around to provide the class with deaper out of combat flexibility, but this can be argued to be compensated by the versatility of the fighter via his unequaled feat selection.
What I thought was the design goal and simply isn't : The barb is a lot less versatile than the fighter in the combat department, but yet outdamage him when raging.
Rage powers is a possible fix for that, but man they gotta get to the table and either revise the existing powers or clearly put some juice in the offense with additional powers.
-Jelly
Part of the problem with the Barbarian is that the 3.x barbarian was potent because power attack + THF was generally the best combat strategy.
Pathfinder has shifted the balance enough that TWF or TWF (Sword + Shield Bash) are now mechanically better for high end PCs. The fighter has enough feats to power a imp crit + TWF + weapon specialization + greater weapon focus build and still have enough feat slots to get iron will or lunge as necessary.
The Barbarian doesn't have as much tactical flexibility, it's heavy focused thematically and via game limitations on melee smashing with a big pointy stick. A barbarian can do a THF Falchion build and do decent DPR but will still lag behind a fighter THF Falchion build.
d12 HD is nice but basically on average it's results in +21 HPs over the fighter over 20 levels. Nice but not awesome.
Skill points and selection but let's be honest most barbarians are going to dump int in order to pump up strength, dex, con and possibly wis.
+10 to base speed is really, really nice at low levels. Excluding monks the barbarian is typically moving between 50-100% faster than the rest of the party. The 1-5 barbarian is a charge beast.
However by the time mithral armor, mounts, flying spells, etc show up that speed advantage has largely been nullified. Further you need to basically shift to the vital strike attack pattern in order to still use your speed to your advantage.
Pounce is a possible solution, but lets be honest charge/pounce builds are brutal. Uneven access to pounce is definitely a problem, if the Barbarian and Druids can get pounce then by all rights it should be something that all the other classes can get.
I'd almost be in favor of making pounce a feat (with heavy prerequisites) and allow everyone to make high mobility melee builds if they want to. You'd probably want to restructure pounce so that it has some negatives to AC.
Possible Examples:
Pounce: -2 to AC, full attack + half move.
Improved Pounce: -2 to AC, full attack + full move.
Greater Pounce: No penalties to AC, full attack + full move.
You'd have to modify or drop spring attack and whirlwind, but this would facilitate the fast moving rogue skirmisher builds and the barbarian berserker builds while also potentially weakening the wizards because they need to watch for charges/full attack blitzes.
I'm perfectly fine with Druids and Barbarians getting a "pounce" as they're the most animalistic ones. Druids can manage by shape-changing into the form, no? I'd think by the same reason/power/spell/whatever that sorcerers and wizards could, too, no? {I've not combed the changes 100%) They just need to pick a "pounce" capable form to get it ... which is perfectly fine - they shape-shifted and used magic to make this happen - cool!
Barbarians are also the "lose it in combat" guys - they're crazy, they're savage, they're primal ... so, as a "rage" specific power boost, I think this is fine for them - it fits their concept well, and brings something to the table that they (and they alone) can do that the other martial-types can't. Since this is part of the problem w/the build (not being able to have a "place" or whatever in the martial world) I'd think that being the one pounce-capable class would give them that option to play with.
Opening this up like a feat makes the unusual ability of critters itself, magic, AND (now proposed) the barbarian as well ... once again, everyone else gets to out-barbarian the barbarian ... that's a problem.
Plus, if you make it a feat, even a 3-deep feat chain ... who's NOT going to want to take it? It *is* just a feat, and therefore open to any that can manage the pre-requs. Totally undercuts the point of all three "special" cases that get it above (3 including a proposed rage-power).
My basic reasoning is that the full attack static warrior is a problem that plagues all of the melee classes. One of the problems I see with high-level warrior types is that in order to be effective in combat they need to be doing full attack runs as much as possible. So even when a warrior has awesome speed he really can't use that speed without taking a big hit to his combat performance.
This problem effects all of the melee classes but barbarian and monk strikers most.
Vital strike alleviates this to a degree but sacrificing 2+ attacks in order to get one big one generally results in a a decline in effectiveness.
Archer builds don't suffer this as much, they can generally pull off a full attack every round as long as their square isn't threatened. Even if it is the archer can generally make a 5' step and let lose.
Casters don't really suffer it at all because they can typically move full speed and cast simultaneously.
By giving every class the possibility of using pounce like mechanics you level the playing field quite a bit. A fighter who is being harassed by an archer or a caster could now charge and still bring the pain with a full attack.
Of course a charge + full attack shouldn't be as good as an attacker who has his feet under him and who is making close range full attacks. That's where a penalty to AC would come into place. If you are running up and smacking people chances are you are less concerned with your own defense. Rather you are trading defense for offense.
Making it a combat feat makes it so that not only specialized builds can attempt these tactics.
The Barbarian should still be boosted obviously but the boosts to the barbarian should be made in addition to fixes to the high level combat game.
To even consider pounce as an ability, I would give it a penalty like -5 to all attacks and only half move in a straight line, minimum.
The thing about the barbarian that hurts the most, is the simple fact that to use rage bonuses properly he HAS to be a two hander, and even in doing so, he is still going to be sub par with other Warriors. And I can't clearly see a solution to this unless his strength bonus gets better, or they consider something like the Conan Barbarian. One extra attack like the Frenzied Berserker had, would be a good thing to fix this too.
To even consider pounce as an ability, I would give it a penalty like -5 to all attacks and only half move in a straight line, minimum.
The thing about the barbarian that hurts the most, is the simple fact that to use rage bonuses properly he HAS to be a two hander, and even in doing so, he is still going to be sub par with other Warriors. And I can't clearly see a solution to this unless his strength bonus gets better, or they consider something like the Conan Barbarian. One extra attack like the Frenzied Berserker had, would be a good thing to fix this too.
Straight pounce now isn't that bad considering how they nerfed power attack. If you use the PF power attack, all those charge feats will do nothing that spectacular any more.
At best it will give them a niche and even more so a better niche to the TWF use.
Very true. Yet, from a combat perspective, IMO, the D12 comes with the DR as a fair trade for the lesser AC, as compared to the fighter.
Except for the fact that fighters now get the same DR that barbarians do, so long as they wear armor. Which just leaves you with an overly dependent on an additional stat, DEX.
To even consider pounce as an ability, I would give it a penalty like -5 to all attacks and only half move in a straight line, minimum.
The thing about the barbarian that hurts the most, is the simple fact that to use rage bonuses properly he HAS to be a two hander, and even in doing so, he is still going to be sub par with other Warriors. And I can't clearly see a solution to this unless his strength bonus gets better, or they consider something like the Conan Barbarian. One extra attack like the Frenzied Berserker had, would be a good thing to fix this too.
Straight pounce now isn't that bad considering how they nerfed power attack. If you use the PF power attack, all those charge feats will do nothing that spectacular any more.
At best it will give them a niche and even more so a better niche to the TWF use.
I don't see power attack as "nerfed" I think it's way better than before, and easier to track.
The thing is a good high level barbarian can down almost any opponent in 1 or 2 full attacks. If pounce does exist without some serious limitation strategy is useless and the barbarian (or any melee class with pounce) WILL end any opponent in said rounds. That's not fun.As I said, one extra attack while raging, natural armor, fear effects. These things can be applied to the class without breaking it.
Let's see. What level, what foe? Will he down that foe faster than the foe downs him?I don't see power attack as "nerfed" I think it's way better than before, and easier to track.
The thing is a good high level barbarian can down almost any opponent in 1 or 2 full attacks. If pounce does exist without some serious limitation strategy is useless and the barbarian (or any melee class with pounce) WILL end any opponent in said rounds. That's not fun.
You are the wizard of math mate. I'm pretty much using your math from that other thread about DPR, but I didn't do the math on it. But I remember you guys saying that an optimized damage dealer can down almost any oponent in one or 2 rounds. But if u can crunch some numbers it would be much apreciated.
On another note, do you not think pounce is too powerful?
I wouldn't be giving pounce at level 1 (like Lion Totem Barb in 3.5) but as a Rage power available at upper levels? I don't see that as overpowered.
It's not like nobody else gets pounce after all (Druids get it at mid level through wildshape). I would think if Barbs got pounce as an option it would make people look at them twice - and that's not a bad thing.
It makes the Barbarian a striding god where magic isn't that easy to come by, if you're doing a more Conanesque, or jungle-type campaign. Again people tend to make assumptions that include the idea that PC access to magic is pratically at will and unlimited. And considering that very few campaigns ever make it to 15th, the envy of the Fighter's abilities at 19th and 20th is a bit misplaced.I think a lot of the problem with the Barbarian is that his strengths at low level (High HPs, High Mobility) are less of a factor in high-level play.
High Mobility (40 ft base speed) is less of a factor once mithral armors, mounts, flight become more commonplace in the game.
Melee classes and casters are arguably balanced under the assumption that melee classes can upgrade gear regularly throughout the game. If you are doing low magic item games then you need to do low-magic games, i.e. wizards and clerics move to a slower spell progression.
Melee classes need to be able to drop foes relatively fast and shore up their defenses or CR appropriate foes completely laugh them off. Special attacks such as vs will SLAs tend to crush fighter types with their slow save progression and the presence of high end Damage Reduction tends to make fighters without magic weapons cry a lot.
Changing the base assumptions from one where gear is readily available and the PCs can upgrade at various times is a tremendous nerf to the noncasters. Yes it hurts the casters, but it hurts them less as they still have access to buffs such as GMW and SoD/SoS spells which can effectively killswitch an opponent in one round.
I do think you can make alterations to the game that allow for low magic games. E6 comes to mind for example, but tinkering with gear access is not exactly easy to balance as the assumptions are so deeply rooted in the game.
You are the wizard of math mate. I'm pretty much using your math from that other thread about DPR, but I didn't do the math on it. But I remember you guys saying that an optimized damage dealer can down almost any oponent in one or 2 rounds. But if u can crunch some numbers it would be much apreciated.An optimized damage dealer should be able to down almost any opponent that quickly, because any level-appropriate opponent can surely return the favor. Just set a level, at least? I'm not clear on what level you consider to be high level. (I've heard characters anywhere from level 6 to level 20+ described as "high level.")
On another note, do you not think pounce is too powerful?Without Leap Attack/Frenzied Barbarian/other charge cheese? No, I don't.
Ok mate, for me high level play starts at 12th level. So, can we roll with that?