Are the authors breaking any new ground on this adventure/backstory, or is this just a translation into 4.0 edition rules?
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Given that it's being marketed as a "Super Adventure" and is being released as a hardcover book, I'd wager that it's more than simply the Tomb of Horrors updated to 4th Edition. It seems very probable to me that it will actually be a converison of 2nd Edition's Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and likely some other suggestions for how you could impliment the Tomb proper into larger-scale adventures.
Despite the fact that I don't own any other 4th Edition materials, I'll be getting this, since I'm a huge fan of both Tomb of Horrors and Return to the Tomb of Horrors. I figure it might be easier to make the Return to the Tomb of Horrors Pathfinder conversion that I've promised myself that I will someday make with a book that takes another look at the Tomb, even if it's for an edition that I'm not really familiar with.
I may also grab the 4th Edition Rules Compendium that supposed to come out sometime towards the end of the year. I don't ever plan to run pure 4th, but more rulebooks always seem to suggest house rules to the system you DO run.
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Back in December we had a little thread on Enworld in which one of the authors shared a bit insight. Not much, but some of it gives you a rough idea (beyond the product info) of what's in store for you. E.g. this here:
I really can't reveal much about this. But since WotC themselves used the phrase "evocative of the classic," I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say this is not a "conversion," but rather something that builds off the original.
You can read the thread here.
Back in December we had a little thread on Enworld in which one of the authors shared a bit insight. Not much, but some of it gives you a rough idea (beyond the product info) of what's in store for you. E.g. this here:
I really can't reveal much about this. But since WotC themselves used the phrase "evocative of the classic," I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say this is not a "conversion," but rather something that builds off the original.You can read the thread here.
Hmmm. Seems kind of odd. The 2nd edition boxed set just had a copy of the original included but then it was possible to run 2nd edition characters through a 1st edition module. You can't do that with 4E so I'm kind of sad that there is no actual conversion as the 3rd edition conversion was really quite good (and probably the best place to start if one was to do a 4E conversion as the two systems share a lot of basic mechanics).
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Hmmm. Seems kind of odd. The 2nd edition boxed set just had a copy of the original included but then it was possible to run 2nd edition characters through a 1st edition module. You can't do that with 4E so I'm kind of sad that there is no actual conversion as the 3rd edition conversion was really quite good (and probably the best place to start if one was to do a 4E conversion as the two systems share a lot of basic mechanics).
Ideally a conversion will be released via the DDI at or near the release.
Well, at least for subscribers. I think it would be smart as it might direct more traffic to the DDI.
Ideally a conversion will be released via the DDI at or near the release.
Well, at least for subscribers. I think it would be smart as it might direct more traffic to the DDI.
If/when there is news on a conversion being available on DDI, do let us know. I'm not a DDI subscriber, and won't pony up until the conversion is on the DDI.
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I plan on doing a PFRPG conversion of Return to the Tomb of Horrors, but obviously I will first do the Tomb of Horrors itself. The 3.5 version was decent, but it lost much of the lethality of the orignal. I realize that 3.5 (and Pathfinder) shied away from the "save or die" type of mechanics that were the core of the Tomb, but without them it's just not the same. So the traps will probably be much closer to 1st edition versions than those of the 3.5 remake.
I'm not sure what the legality of sharing my finished product would be, since it's a completely derivative work, and would likely include artwork and maps from the original S1, Return, and the 3.5 version. (If I were a great artist, I'd redo these myself, but alas...). It will also probably include vast amounts of text directly copied from those source documents.
I think I may actually get started on the first portion, converting the Tomb itself, this weekend. As the module isn't really that big, it shouldn't take too long, I'd wager that I finish it before the end of February if I devote a decent amount of time to it.
Return will, of course, be a much more massive project, I'm not gonna even attempt to put a timeline on myself for that beast as of yet.
But I'll keep my source files, because this release just might inspire some more ideas for a better conversion and/or other supplemental material, despite the fact that I don't play 4th edition.
Here's a question for those who play both 4th edition and Pathfinder (or 3.5). How easy is conversion between the two systems? Has anyone found any type of (hopefully free) conversion guide out there? Hopefully one that works both ways, and not just 3.5 ==> 4th.
There isn't one. It's very much conversion by 'feel' as there is no direct correlation of stats in a meaningful way.
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If/when there is news on a conversion being available on DDI, do let us know. I'm not a DDI subscriber, and won't pony up until the conversion is on the DDI.
Ideally a conversion will be released via the DDI at or near the release.
Well, at least for subscribers. I think it would be smart as it might direct more traffic to the DDI.
I will certainly be happy to let you know. I really hope we get a conversion, but I guess we have to wait and see.
A friend of mine ran us through the 3.5 version of tomb of horrors. We had close to a dozen PC fatalities, so I'd say it's still pretty lethal.
As for trying a direct conversion, it wouldn't be that hard at all. You could use the same maps, though you might want to make a few of the rooms larger where fights will happen. A lot of the traps could still more or less stay the same (ie. you could still have the face with the sphere of anniliation, and it could still be instant death. You could still have the portal that strips you of all your gear etc..). The 4E rules are just guidelines to help you design balanced encounters that will provide suitable challenge at suitable risk. To make Tomb of Horrors, Tomb of Horrors you'll have to ignore much of that. Just give the players a heads up ahead of time that it will be a particularly lethal dungeon crawl. Make the 4 armed gargoyle a solo monster. When they fall into a poison coated spiked pit, have the poison do ongoing 15-20 damage with a -2 to saves instead of ongoing 5-10. You'd still be using 4E concepts, but adding extra lethality to them. Don't worry about nice balanced encounters. Use those guidelines to help make sure you don't make things nice and balanced by accident.
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@ P.H. Dungeon: How did you handle the Traps in 3.5?
I have been long thinking if it is possible to port the "ToH experience" from the older edition to the new ones.
IMHO ToH is all about Players (not PCs) using every ounce of their wits to somehow pass the traps, riddles and oddities. For the original ToH the party composition really does not matter. Nor, apart from the few fights, does PC level really matter. For example, Rob Kuntz with his Lord Robilar defeated the ToH as a one man show.
Long and careful description of each player what he does and how he does it is the key to success (or failure) in the older edition of ToH.
That said, in the RAW, the Skill solution systems in 3rd and 4th edition would theoretically allow to bypass the traps with a a few die rolls. It would also be theoretically possible to bypass a riddle with a skill or attribute check ("come on, my Wizard has Int. 20 and knowledge Mathematics +15, I have to get a check...").
So, how would you handle this Player knowledge vs. PC skill dilemma?
I didn't run the 3.5 game, but I do recall several traps that didn't allow for saves. I don't know if that was RAW in the module or if it was just our cruel dm.
One of thing that you would want to take into account if you run a 4E version of ToH is that the PCs won't have access to some of the fancy movement tricks that heroes can get in 1E-3E (spiderclimb, fly, dimension door etc...). I had fairly good luck with a cleric/rogue in 3E that had access to the travel domain and had slippers of spiderclimb. It wasn't enough to save her-especially after she went through a portal that caused her to loose all her gear.
In regards to Skill systems in 3E and 4E, keeping the DCs high will help. The way the ToH sometimes stacks traps can also cause problems- a PC is busy trying to deactivate one trap, while two other ones are triggering, and of course a few traps just can't be deactivated by skill checks.
I'd probably modify a few of the combat encounters to give them a more 4E feel (adding more monsters of differing roles that work in conjunction with some of the evil terrain). Remember that a lot of the fun players running 4E characters is effectively comboing their powers and using team work in combat, so I'd personally add a few more opportunities for that in ToH, perhaps combined with some simultaneous skill challenges to deactivate traps. Of course that's just a matter of personal taste. and it would likely cause the module to drift more away from the original, so it might not be for some dms.
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Here's a question for those who play both 4th edition and Pathfinder (or 3.5). How easy is conversion between the two systems? Has anyone found any type of (hopefully free) conversion guide out there? Hopefully one that works both ways, and not just 3.5 ==> 4th.
The best way I have found to convert is to use the monster's level as its hit dice, use the same basic stats, Str, Dex, etc, and just do the rest from scratch. Usually I use spell like abilities to fill in some of the wilder stuff. Feats and special attacks/abilities usually do the trick for the rest.
I've played it and DMed it and in the beginnings of converting The Return To The Tomb Of Horrors. For anyone converting this or DMing or playing it I offer the following:
1. The dungeon is mean't to be unfair! Balance doesn't enter into it at all. If it says "save or die" keep it that way.
2. It is possible to get through without a scratch. If you treat everything as if it can kill your PC, get Unseen Servants to touch things first or Summoned Monsters. Augery is your friend.
3. Don't rush anything, ever. If it looks like a trap it probably is. If it looks nice and safe it probably isn't!
4. Don't pay too much notice to PC skills. This is a dungeon designed to challange the PLAYERS as much if not more so than the PCs. If a player has his PC with (sorry I play Pathfinder) Perception 35 walks blindly hoping his high skill check will keep him safe, kill/maim/disfigure the PC. If the Player with the low Perception spends his time describing how exactly his PC is checking the place/room/corridor hits the mark reward him. Not fair? This dungeon isn't mean't to be.
5. Warn the players. Tell them what to expect. There is little loot and much danger. Tell them it will be unfair. Tell them that their PC may die, permanently. Give them a choice.
6. If your players don't enjoy puzzles or hate frustration don't run it.
7. If a new spell or summonable monster gets around a problem too easy, like earth gliding elementals scouting for you, don't let it happen. You as a DM don't need a reason, like I said this dungeon is unfair.
It is a b1t@h to survive but enjoyable.
EN World did a conversion for the RETURN to the Tomb of Horrors for 3.5 edition. That would make a conversion for Pathfinder relatively easy. I can't speak to 4th edition, but I suspect that the new book may take care of some/much of that for you...
I plan on doing a PFRPG conversion of Return to the Tomb of Horrors, but obviously I will first do the Tomb of Horrors itself. The 3.5 version was decent, but it lost much of the lethality of the orignal. I realize that 3.5 (and Pathfinder) shied away from the "save or die" type of mechanics that were the core of the Tomb, but without them it's just not the same. So the traps will probably be much closer to 1st edition versions than those of the 3.5 remake.
As I recall the lethality was not so much due to save or die effects but that many of the 'traps' had no save at all - you just die. Often because the trap was built from a magic item.
You've chosen to do one of the tougher conversions around. One of the area's where 1st and 2nd just don't really relate to 3rd and 4th mechanically is anything to do with traps. 3rd and 4th use a skill system to essentially short cut around what in 1st and 2nd was an elaborate game of describing how one dealt with a potential trap - including where one might touch it and how along with a list of precautions one might be taking.
Things just don't exactly line up in this regards because a player that says 'I take 20 on search' is interacting with the environment...but how? Do you stop the action to get the details? Can you even set off a trap considering that a search check should have identified it as a potential trap? If so then are you not just saying 'here is a trap and its impossible to detect and there are no saves and your dead!' since they were clearly trying to detect it when they took 20.
All and all one of the tougher types of adventures to convert (probably the toughest really). If you have an extensive Dungeon collection you might want to compare the original version of Mud Sorcerer's Tomb to the 3.5 conversion for more examples on how others have tried to tackle this issue. Mud Sorcerer's Tomb is very comparable to Tomb of Horrors in look and feel.
As I understand it, it is not a direct conversion of Tomb of Horrors. It sets up a campaign framework for a Tomb of Horrors themed super adventure/campaign, but it isn't a recreation of the original adventure.
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Eh, I'd be surprised if that was the case. It's not a very lengthy module, I would think that if they were going to go to all the trouble of creating a 4E adventure with the ToH as a major theme, then presenting the module in a form that is usable with 4E would be rather essential. Return didn't update the 1st edition module, but the differences between 1E and 2E weren't nearly as vast as from 2E to 3E, or 3E to 4E.
7. If a new spell or summonable monster gets around a problem too easy, like earth gliding elementals scouting for you, don't let it happen. You as a DM don't need a reason, like I said this dungeon is unfair.
I like how number 7 goes COMPLETELY against the advice given in 1-6.
Are the authors breaking any new ground on this adventure/backstory, or is this just a translation into 4.0 edition rules?
Acererak will be a minion.
As I recall the lethality was not so much due to save or die effects but that many of the 'traps' had no save at all - you just die. Often because the trap was built from a magic item.
IIRC, it was originally a tournament module, which accounts for some of the over-the-top lethality.
One of the traps involves what is considered a major artifact in the Pathfinder rule set
There was an awful lot of poison (in spike pits, on crossbow bolts) in the dungeon, which was pretty lethal in 1st ed. D&D. There was at least one see-saw trap that would drop your party down a shaft full of lava, while sealing the only exit. Teleportation and ethereal travel were also blocked within the dungeon.
I believe there was also an encounter with a demi-lich, which was a bit nuts for a party of 7th and 8th level 1st. ed. characters.
One of the nice things was that there were lots of lighting challenges, which made torches and light spells pretty useful.
So, it's out now. Anyone pick it up yet?
I haven't picked up the super adventure (yet), but I did get a free copy of the 4e conversion of the original module through WotC's DM rewards.
I don't know if it's too late to sign up, but copies are going for over $50 on ebay.
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I haven't picked up the super adventure (yet), but I did get a free copy of the 4e conversion of the original module through WotC's DM rewards.
I don't know if it's too late to sign up, but copies are going for over $50 on ebay.
I also got a copy from my DM Rewards. I am very curious as how the two compare, because I can't imagine this being of enough material for a book.
It's not due to be released until next week in the UK and then I have some fast reading to do. There are two six-strong groups poised to run through it when it arrives.
I have the Super Adventure. It is based on the assumption the 1E and 2E versions of the adventure happened in times past, and now Acerak is up to a new plan which the PCs must stop.
It is four adventures connected by the common theme of Acerak's plans. They play out between levels 10-22, with the DM putting adventures of his own design between the pieces.
The Garden of Graves (Level 10) takes the PCs into the Feywild to a set of Fae caerns.
The Tomb of Shadows (Level 14) takes them to the ruins of Moil in the Shadowfell.
Skull City (Level 18) takes them to Skull City and the original Tomb of Horrors.
Dead Gods Tomb (Level 22) takes them to the Astral Sea and the final confrontation with Acerak.Some traps and tricks are explicitly set up to test Player ingenuity rather than simply skill levels. There are some pretty nifty puzzles and traps and some interesting fights and critters.
I'm most of the way through it and pretty pleased. (Interestingly, you could easily interleave this with Revenge of the Giants, especially since ROG has a time travel segment where you meet Acerak.)
Thanks Mr. Biles, that's useful information. KGM
I did purchase the book. There is some interesting material in it, but I found the book highly annoying. I got very tired of the authors REPEATEDLY describing (in detail) the changes they had made on the original adventures and story line to fit in with the 4Ed planar cosmology. How many times did I need to hear about one place is in the 'Feywild' or that Moil is in the 'Shadowfell'. Not being a 4Ed player, I don't even know what the hell those places are, and there was nothing in the text to summarize them for me, yet they continually restated those places.
All in all, the adventure was a tiresome read. In the 4.0 Tomb of Horrors, I'm having to flip back and forth to different pages, just to read up on the same encounter. Gone is the Pathfinder & earlier editions practice of putting all the relevant info there in a single place on the same page. And there are very few stat blocks, and most monsters are just a name and a page number to reference in a 4Ed monster manual 1,2,3,4,10... The 4Ed rules are very foreign, as to make conversion to 3.5/Pathfinder a major undertaking for me or anyone who doesn't play both games.
I did purchase the book. There is some interesting material in it, but I found the book highly annoying. I got very tired of the authors REPEATEDLY describing (in detail) the changes they had made on the original adventures and story line to fit in with the 4Ed planar cosmology. How many times did I need to hear about one place is in the 'Feywild' or that Moil is in the 'Shadowfell'. Not being a 4Ed player, I don't even know what the hell those places are, and there was nothing in the text to summarize them for me, yet they continually restated those places.
All in all, the adventure was a tiresome read. In the 4.0 Tomb of Horrors, I'm having to flip back and forth to different pages, just to read up on the same encounter. Gone is the Pathfinder & earlier editions practice of putting all the relevant info there in a single place on the same page. And there are very few stat blocks, and most monsters are just a name and a page number to reference in a 4Ed monster manual 1,2,3,4,10... The 4Ed rules are very foreign, as to make conversion to 3.5/Pathfinder a major undertaking for me or anyone who doesn't play both games.
Sorry to hear your having difficulty though I'm not to shocked.
Converting from a system that you have no experience with strikes me as always being difficult. Imagine trying to convert from 3rd to 2nd with no familiarity with 3rd? What are these feats you speak of? What the heck is this DC thing that appears everywhere? How come the text keeps taking about taking 20? Take 20 of what?
If your having trouble with a specific sentence or concept I'm sure the 4E regulars can try and help you parse it.
Your comment that the book is full of stuff discussing how they evolved the adventure from its historical roots (why they did what they did etc.) has gone a long way toward convincing me to give it a try. I love that sort of thing.