Increasing intelligence in Pathfinder has a retroactive effect (thank God). Familiars' intelligence go up at high levels. Does that mean they get more skill ranks to invest in their skills like PCs do?
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Increasing intelligence in Pathfinder has a retroactive effect (thank God)
I am not so sure about being too thankful. If I put on a headband of vast intelligence for more than 24 hours I get extra skill points (right? it is not just a temporary bonus anymore after 24 hrs, so I get extra skill points: this is covered somewhere in Appendix 1).
But then if - for any reason (maybe unwillingly) - I take the headband off, I lose those points, so this means that I must remember where I had invested them in order to remove them properly.
This is astonishingly unwieldy.
In addition, what happens if later I put on the headband again? Do I regain the skill points in the same "slots" (i.e. skills) where I had spent them (case A), or I can choose a different setup (case B)? Both situations are problematic.
In case B, I can effectively take off and then put on again a headband of vast intelligence +6 to rearrange a large number of skill points in just 24 hours.
It should be called headband of vast rearrangement.
But case A, on the other hand, gives rise to even more twisted situations: here's a case study for your convenience.
- I am a 10th level wizard, and I have 8 skill ranks in - say - Linguistics.
- I put on a headband of vast intelligence +4; I get many extra skill points. I put 2 of them in Linguistics, reaching 10 ranks.
- For some reason I take the headband off. Linguistics skill ranks drop to 8 again.
- Now I level up. I am 11th level now. I take 3 skill ranks in Linguistics, reaching 11 ranks total - the maximum for my level.
- I put on the headband again. But the 2 ranks in Linguistics cannot apply (or I would reach 13 ranks at level 11)... so what happens to those ranks? Maybe they are lost, or I can rearrange them, or what else?
(And this without considering the logistic nightmare of taking a note of the skill ranks that I've associated with that specific headband).
I am not so sure about being too thankful.
Somebody hasn't read the rules methinks. :P
Also, it does not appear that anybody has even attempted to answer my question. I didn't even mention a headband of ANYTHING in my post and yet somehow a discussion about it flared up in my thread...
Please don't derail the thread at least until AFTER I get a few on topic responses.
Do familiars even get skill ranks?
Every creature with an Intelligence score gets skill ranks.
I'd say they get extra skill points for an increasing intelligence modifier since it says in the description of skills under the Familiar rules in the core book-
"For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better."
I'd say that pretty heavily implies that familiars have their own skills, skill ranks and the skill points to spend into them which would also mean that that they get extra skill points when their intelligence goes up. Though it may be important to note that in the same section in the core book it says that familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth and Swim as class skills. That may or may not change what they'd get as "class skills" as normal animals of their type.
Yes, by the book they should get bonus skill points courtesy of Intelligence.
They don't gain HD, though (they gain what you could call pseudo-HD), so it's only ever going to be a handful of extra ranks; and retroactive effect isn't relevant - the familiar of a 20th level master still has its base HD. But still, yeah, Ravingdork, you're right. Extra Intelligence should give the bat/cat/rat a few extra ranks.
Next question: can it put those ranks in skills it possesses via its master? I think not. Just because it can make use of its master's skill ranks, doesn't make those skill ranks its own to advance independently. Mind you, when would this ever matter? The master will be accumulating ranks far faster than the familiar. The familiar is best off putting its new ranks in its own class skills, ones the master might not be able to provide it with.
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I am not so sure about being too thankful.Somebody hasn't read the rules methinks. :P
I did. Maybe I didn't understand them fully, but I did read them.
Appendix says:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
[...]
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Why should not this apply to the headband of intelligence? You get, e.g., +2 to Intelligence so you should get extra skill points after 24 hours (I know you get the specific skill ranks associated with the headband, but that is a different bonus, methinks).
Also, it does not appear that anybody has even attempted to answer my question. I didn't even mention a headband of ANYTHING in my post and yet somehow a discussion about it flared up in my thread...Please don't derail the thread at least until AFTER I get a few on topic responses.
You are right about my attempt to hijack your thread, so I opened another one. Sorry for that.
As to your question: I think that RAW implies that the retroactive increases of skill bonuses (or whatever else) apply to all kind of creatures, not only to the PCs or to humanoid characters.
So yes, it would apply to familiars as well.
This said, it is true that familiars are very peculiar creatures: an increase in the familiar's constitution score, for example, does nothing to increase its hit points, since those are fixed to half the master's hit points.
So the bottom line is: only Mr Buhlman knows.
I know is been pointed out that familiars don't get extra HD, so theres not a lot of skill points coming their way even when they increase their Int.
But they also start out with a severe Int penalty. So basic familiars only have a single skill point when they start out. You can check this by working out the skills for a 1st lvl familiar, they each have skills set to only having 1 actual skill point--everything else is based on racial bonuses and size and speed modifiers.
So the base animal has an Int penalty of -4 or -5, and for each HD gets 2+Int mod skill points, giving them only a single skill point for their single HD (since you always get at least 1sp per HD no matter your Int.) Then upon becoming a familiar the animal gets an Int of 6. That still leaves them with a negative Int mod and only the single skill point.
It wouldn't be until the master gets to 9th lvl that the familiar gets an Int score without a penatly, and would then get one single skill point. At 13th level he gets a +1 Int mod, so he'd get another skill point at that level. And then at 17th level his Int mod goes to +2, so he'd get his third and final extra skill point at that level.
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One question I have on familiars and skill points: How does the class skill bonus of +3 work with the familiar? I'm guessing they only get the bonus based on their class skills and not the masters class skills. But do they get the bonus if they are using the masters skill ranks and not their own? Say a bat familiar's master has ranks in Perception (the bat has only a single skill point in fly and none in Perception)...does the bat then get the +3 class skill bonus? Or does it only apply to skills in which the familiar puts his own skill points? My guess is that it only applies when the familiar puts his own skill ranks in it, and that he'd get this bonus even if the master has more skill points in it and the familiar is relying on the masters skill points for that skill. But I'm not certain.
Example:
Bat familiar's master is 8th lvl and has 8 ranks in perception and 8 ranks in fly. The bat has his one skill point in the fly skill. Bat would use masters skill ranks for both skills, and would get a +3 class skill bonus for fly but not for perception, since the bat has no ranks in that skill. Bat would have a fly skill of (8 ranks +3 class skill bonus + bat's Dex mod + bat's size and maneuverability modifiers), and he'd have a Perception skill of (8 ranks + bat's Wis Mod + 4 bat's racial mod).
At 9th lvl bat gets a 10 Int and gets an extra skill point. He puts this skill point into Perception. He still uses the master's skill points since they are higher, but he now gets the +3 class skill bonus added to his perception skill.
Again I'm not certain thats how it works, but it just seems that way to me.
@Father Dale: Improved Familiar
I'm thinking that a familiar would NOT get the +3 class skill bonus unless it is a familiar class skill, or a class skill for an animal of that kind.
Another question: Do I still have to adhere to the intelligence column of the familiar chart when I get an improved familiar (such as an imp)?
Familiars get Familiar Class Skills but also Class Skills for their base type, which for Improved Familiars can be quite extensive. (Pseudodragon is a misnomer: they ARE dragons)
I haven't seen this mentioned so I figured that I would open a small box, :)
I have always interpreted that skill points, feats and attribute gains are linked to HD/level.
Familiars gain effects based on the HD of the master.
So, a familiar would gain extra skill points based on the HD of the master and their intelligence. They would likely put those skill points in skills where the master does not have any, or is not likely to put many in.
Familiars gaining feats, this would help address the issue that people have with familiars delivering touch spells for their masters (dodge, mobility and spring attack would solve it).