One of my players is interested in having a spell-less bard who focuses more on melee abilities. After doing some searching for good abilities for him I found the Dervish Dance and its bard counterpart the Snowflake Wardance. I'm trying to find a good conversion for them it for pathfinder bards.
I have a quick beta of my version quoted below. Have there been any other conversions of this ability?
There are a few things in my version that I'm concerned with.
First, the way this is right now the bard can't use any of his bardic song abilities while doing the wardance because of changes to the way bardic songs work now. I know the original dervish dance allowed bardic songs to be used with it, and I would like to do the same thing.
There are a few ways around this...maybe I could have a set cost of 2 rounds of performing to start the wardance, then let him mix in bardic song abilities normally while it stays active for a certain number of rounds? Alternatively, I could just give him a set number of uses per day like the original dervish ability.
The other thing is that I removed the slashing weapon requirement because I think it should be possible to use other things with the dance with some creativity. Two handed weapons still aren't allowed. Do you think there are potential problems with this?
Heh, I'm torn between whether I should make this thing feat strength or make it into his primary damage dealing ability like the dervish.
Wardance
The bard may use his performing ability to enter a deadly style of combat known as the wardance. Once activated, he adds his Charisma modifier to his attack and damage rolls with any melee weapon he is wielding in one hand. These bonus’ stack with any bonuses he gets from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if he is using Weapon Finesse).While in this wardance, he can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to his speed. However, the bard must move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack while using this ability, and he cannot return to a square he just exited (though he may return to that square later during his full attack). The bard is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of his move. A bard prevented from completing his move is also prevented from finishing his full attack.
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. This does not work with two-handed weapons. While dancing, a bard cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require him to remain still such as stealth and search.
Unlike other performances, a wardance may always be started as a free action and ended with a free action. Performing a wardance is physically tiresome - when the dance ends, you become fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the wardance. A bard cannot enter a new wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter a wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
I would just edit my old post with this update but the option isn't there. I've toyed with the ability a bit more; I think it is complete but I would appreciate any critiques.
I added in a duration which is based on his 1/3 perform[dance] skill, and he can now use normal bardic performances with this ability. I also added in the light weapon requirement back in.
It is a little more powerful than the original ability because it adds Cha to damage now, but everything is more powerful in pathfinder anyway, lol.
While in this wardance, he can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to his speed. However, the bard must move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack while using this ability, and he cannot return to a square he just exited (though he may return to that square later during his full attack). The bard is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of his move. A bard prevented from completing his move is also prevented from finishing his full attack.
He cannot use this ability if he is carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. The bard can only use this with one handed light weapons or double weapons; the ability does not work with two-handed weapons. While dancing, a bard cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require him to remain still such as stealth and search. A bard can however use his bardic performance ability while wardancing and may also use combat expertise. A bard cannot use this ability while under the effect of a rage or frenzy.
A wardance is not a bardic performance, but the bard must use one rounds of his bardic performance as a free action to begin the wardance. The wardance lasts for a number of rounds equal to his perform(dance) skill divided by three (minimum 1). On the round that the wardance would end, the bard may expend another round of bardic music to restart the wardance’s duration. A wardance can last no longer than the bard’s perform(dance) skill (including ranks, class skill bonus, and bonuses from items and abilities). Starting or maintaining a wardance does not prevent a bard from starting or maintaining a bardic performance.
Performing a wardance is physically tiresome - when the dance ends, the bard becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the wardance. A bard cannot enter a new wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter a wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
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To be honest, you really don't need to change that much for this feat. Many people saw that feat as extremely powerful before, and you probably don't need to increase it's power. A one-to-one round conversion (and only a swift action to start) seems fine. I would also let other bardic performances be allowed while dancing. However I would keep the restriction on slashing weapons as it does restrict it from being used with certain weapons that "don't make sense."
To be honest, you really don't need to change that much for this feat. Many people saw that feat as extremely powerful before, and you probably don't need to increase it's power. A one-to-one round conversion (and only a swift action to start) seems fine. I would also let other bardic performances be allowed while dancing. However I would keep the restriction on slashing weapons as it does restrict it from being used with certain weapons that "don't make sense."
Just so you know, I've been basing this largely off of the dervish version since I don't have the original bard version (I just saw a custom neverwinter nights version). So, if I made too many changes, that's why XD.
I think you're right, it needs to be toned down a little. Maybe I'll let him upgrade it with another feat or two if he wants. I'll take out the +cha to damage.
I don't think I want to give it a one-to-one round conversion since I don't want him to use up his resources too quickly by doing a wardance and another performance at the same time. However, I'll make it so that the duration is 1 round for every 4 skill in perform(dance) instead of every 3. I think that's roughly equal with the cost I saw in the nwn version...you paid 2 uses of the bardic song ability to activate the dance for a number of rounds equal to your perform ranks.
I'm iffy about setting the requirement to slashing weapons only though. Sure, it may not always make sense, but you don't need slashing weapons to do a whirlwind attack.
While in this wardance, he can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to his speed. However, the bard must move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack while using this ability, and he cannot return to a square he just exited (though he may return to that square later during his full attack). The bard is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of his move. A bard prevented from completing his move is also prevented from finishing his full attack.
He cannot use this ability if he is carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. The bard can only use this with one handed light weapons or double weapons; the ability does not work with two-handed weapons. While dancing, a bard cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require him to remain still such as stealth and search. A bard can however use his bardic performance ability while wardancing and may also use combat expertise. A bard cannot use this ability while under the effect of a rage or frenzy.
A wardance is not a bardic performance, but the bard must use one rounds of his bardic performance as a free action to begin the wardance. The wardance lasts for a number of rounds equal to his perform(dance) skill divided by four (minimum 1). On the round that the wardance would end, the bard may expend another round of bardic music to restart the wardance’s duration. A wardance can last no longer than the bard’s perform(dance) skill (including ranks, class skill bonus, and bonuses from items and abilities). Starting or maintaining a wardance does not prevent a bard from starting or maintaining a bardic performance.
Performing a wardance is physically tiresome - when the dance ends, the bard becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the wardance. A bard cannot enter a new wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter a wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
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Ah, didn't know you didn't have the original. Just to be concise about it here (Just opened up Frostburn). Note that I haven't converted at all.
Benefit: Expend bardic use, free action. Add cha mod to attack rolls with slashing melee weapons that you wield in one hand. This stacks with strength or dexterity. Cannot use if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or if you have a medium or heavy load. Lasts for a number of rounds equal to perform dance ranks. Fatigued at end for 10 minutes.
As for conversion, the fatigued for 10 minutes is a tad harsh and you could change it to 1 minute or double rounds in dance (it depends on whether you want it to affect the next combat or not).
As for expending the bardic uses, I actually see what you're saying, a one-to-one round conversion would be a bit heavy. Maybe just use 2 uses to start and that's it? (This would be "equivalent" to 3.5 since you get 2 uses per level in PFRPG and got 1 use per level in 3.5) If you want to take off the slashing melee weapon, that's fine too, I just see it as a flavor/dervish thing.
As for the ability to move while attacking... that was actually a dervish class ability. I would recommend taking that part out of the feat and moving it to either a completely new feat (with much higher requirements) or forcing him to take the dervish prestige class. If you want I can find the original 3.5 dervish and post some of the main points.
Ah, didn't know you didn't have the original. Just to be concise about it here (Just opened up Frostburn). Note that I haven't converted at all.
** spoiler omitted **
As for conversion, the fatigued for 10 minutes is a tad harsh and you could change it to 1 minute or double rounds in dance (it depends on whether you want it to affect the next combat or not).
As for expending the bardic uses, I actually see what you're saying, a one-to-one round conversion would be a bit heavy. Maybe just use 2 uses to start and that's it? (This would be "equivalent" to 3.5 since you get 2 uses per level in PFRPG and got 1 use per level in 3.5) If you want to take off the slashing melee weapon, that's fine too, I just see it as a flavor/dervish thing.
As for the ability to move while attacking... that was actually a dervish class ability. I would recommend taking that part out of the feat and moving it to either a completely new feat (with much higher requirements) or forcing him to take the dervish prestige class. If you want I can find the original 3.5 dervish and post some of the main points.
Oh wow, the bard version was much simpler than I thought it was. I was thinking that was pretty powerful for a feat with such low requirements, I'm definately going to have to tone this down and separate it into multiple feats/abilities.
This is what I'll do. I'll take the movement ability out of the bard version and set it to 2 uses to start the ability like you suggested. I'll put the movement while attacking into a separate feat which will require dodge, mobility, and maybe a few other things. Starting the 'move while attacking' version will require 4 uses of the bardic performance.
I might create a 3rd feat called 'deadly dance' which adds bonus damage equal to his cha bonus as well (making it like the dervish version).
Alright, I'll have to go type up the new versions and post them when I get a chance. Thanks for the help :D
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No problem!
While this is a ton of feats for a bard to take (multiclassing time maybe?) You might want to add spring attack to the list of pre-reqs for the movement feat. This would at least make it so he wouldn't have to tumble at all with a single target (so the feat wouldn't be useless), but at the same time upping the requirements slightly. Let me check dervish and see the ability...
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Just looked up dervish in Complete Warrior, and yes the original feat you mentioned was an amalgamation of the 1st level Dervish ability and Snowflake wardance. The class itself requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Slashing weapon). So my suggestion of spring attack could work but I guess isn't really required. If you don't make it a requirement I would definitely suggest he get it though... it would take alot of time away from rolling those tumble checks.
Not a bad attempt Matrixryu. For my conversion I'm attempting to keep changes to a minimum and utilise Pathfinder rules as much as possible.
Feat conversion for Pathfinder
Frostburn pg50
You have mastered the snowflake wardance, a mystical style of fighting with slashing weapons that allows you to leap and almost seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake.
Prerequisite: Bardic performance ability, Perform (dance) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action (an exception to the Standard, Move or Swift action normally required to activate bardic performance), and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier (if any, to a maximum of your class level) to your attack and damage rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand, or each hand if you use two-weapon fighting. This bonus stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).Snowflake wardance is a personal bardic performance; as such it is not affected by blindness or silence. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armour, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
Snowflake Wardance is a bardic performance ability. A Bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time. A bard can end her snowflake wardance as a free action and is fatigued afterwards for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the snowflake wardance. A bard cannot enter a new snowflake wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter snowflake wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Design notes: Snowflake wardance is the Bard's answer to Barbarian rage. It's duration is limited by the number of rounds per day you have available for bardic performance. Because a single bard can't perform Inspire Courage and Snowflake wardance at the same time the feat conversion needed a boost by adding Chrisma modifier to attack and damage which also makes it comparable to rage and inspire courage abilities. A clarification was added that you can use a slashing melee weapon in each hand with this feat.
Yea, it is a lot of feats for a bard, but since this player is going for a spell-less bard I'm thinking of giving him a bonus feat every four levels. I think it should work out pretty well.
I might just have to see if I can fit in some dervish like fast movement into the spell-less bard too, since otherwise a halfling would have a lot of trouble using the dervish dance ability, lol. I'll be honest, I don't play bards so I'm having a little trouble making sure that I don't overpower him. XD
I never actually thought about spring attack being used at the same time as Dervish Dance. Are you sure that would work? Spring attack says "You can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack."
Feat conversion for Pathfinder
You have mastered the snowflake wardance, a mystical style of fighting with slashing weapons that allows you to leap and almost seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake.
Prerequisite: Bardic performance ability, Perform (dance) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action (an exception to the Standard, Move or Swift action normally required to activate bardic performance), and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack and damage rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand, or each hand if you use two-weapon fighting. This bonus stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armour, or carrying a medium or heavy load. A bard cannot use this ability while under the effect of a rage or frenzy.Snowflake Wardance is a bardic performance ability. A Bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time. A bard can end her snowflake wardance as a free action and is fatigued afterwards for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the snowflake wardance. A bard cannot enter a new snowflake wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter snowflake wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Thanks for the reply :D Yea, that would definately be more balanced than the original one I posted. The main thing that I'm doing differently is that I'm trying to make it so that the bard can do his dance of death while doing other performances like the dervish can, so I'm having to treat it as 'not a bardic performance'. I don't want to force my player to choose between being useful in combat and buffing the party.
No problem Matrixryu - that is a difference of goals. e.g. customising a feat for your campaign and player's capabilities at utilising the bard class in combat while I'm trying to do a generic and faithful conversion of this feat for Pathfinder. If people do try this conversion in game-play any feedback would be appreciated.
No problem Matrixryu - that is a difference of goals. e.g. customising a feat for your campaign and player's capabilities at utilising the bard class in combat while I'm trying to do a generic and faithful conversion of this feat for Pathfinder. If people do try this conversion in game-play any feedback would be awesome.
I just realized a problem with your version. It only gives a +Cha to attack and damage, right? Inspire Courage gives a bonus to attack, damage and will saves vs fear and affects all party members who can hear him. The bonus might just be a little lower, but it doesn't have the limitations of the snowflake wardance. It seems to me that inspire courage is just simply better, especially at higher levels where IC gets to a +4 bonus.
Yea, unfortionately I think this is an example an old ability not being able to be cleanly being converted to use pathfinder rules since inspire courage beats it. It would either have to be heavily buffed or it would just have to follow the old method of having a set cost to start it, and then it would last for a number of rounds equal to the character's perform (dance) skill like in the old version.
Valid points you raise to be answered. It may seem underpowered compared to a whole party receiving the benefit of Inspire Courage (plus it costs a feat to use it) but that's ok. Better to be underpowered than overpowered.
The benefit is more for solo or selfish Bards or melee Bards who want to excel in combat. They trade spreading lower attack and damage bonus (and charm/fear moral bonus) to all party members -- for a personal rage-like power granting the bard higher attack and damage bonus in melee.
At 17th level Inspire Courage grants a +4 bonus to all allies but the same Bard with Snowflake Wardance and 30 Charisma could be adding +10 to his attack and damage rolls instead.
An additional benefit is that because the performance is a personal one it is not affected by blindness or silence (unlike Inspire courage).
Also why not let it stack with Rage and Frenzy? The original version didn't include that limitation and Pathfinder already lets Rage and Inspire Courage bonuses stack.
Based on your feedback I've updated the feat in above post with "Snowflake wardance is a personal bardic performance; as such it is not affected by blindness or silence." Thanks for making me think of it in response to your points.
Valid points you raise to be answered. It may seem underpowered compared to a whole party receiving the benefit of Inspire Courage (plus it costs a feat to use it) but that's ok. Better to be underpowered than overpowered.
The benefit is more for solo or selfish Bards or melee Bards who want to excel in combat. They trade spreading lower attack and damage bonus (and charm/fear moral bonus) to all party members -- for a personal rage-like power granting the bard higher attack and damage bonus in melee.
At 17th level Inspire Courage grants a +4 bonus to all allies but the same Bard with Snowflake Wardance and 30 Charisma could be adding +10 to his attack and damage rolls instead.
An additional benefit is that because the performance is a personal one it is not affected by blindness or silence (unlike Inspire courage).Also why not let it stack with Rage and Frenzy? The original version didn't include that limitation and Pathfinder already lets Rage and Inspire Courage bonuses stack.
Based on your feedback I've updated the feat in above post with "Snowflake wardance is a personal bardic performance; as such it is not affected by blindness or silence." Thanks for making me think of it in response to your points.
Oh, I only put in the rage/frenzy thing because that was mentioned in the Dervish Dance that I originally based my version off of. But yea, for a solo bard it would definately be better than Inspire Courage. Removing the blindness/silence stuff makes sense as well.
Hmm, yea, I think the only reason why mine is 'balanced' with just having a 2 round starting cost right now is because I removed the damage bonus. I'm thinking of allowing a separate feat to add the damage though.
Alright, here are the almost final versions of my conversion of the snowflake wardance for pathfinder. I also created two feats which a bard could also take to 'upgrade' the dance to Dervish Dance levels. The combined feats he would need to get the two upgrades would be the same as those needed to become a Dervish.
I'm calling it a bardic wardance just because I think using the word 'snowflake' in it is silly ;)
Bardic Wardance
Prerequisites: Bardic Performance, Perform (Dance) 3 ranks
Benefit: The bard may use his performing ability to enter a deadly style of combat known as the wardance. Once activated, he adds his Charisma modifier to his attack rolls with any light melee weapon his is wielding in one hand. This bonus’ stack with any bonuses he gets from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if he is using Weapon Finesse).
He cannot use this ability if he is carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. The bard can only use this with one handed light weapons or double weapons; the ability does not work with two-handed weapons. While dancing, a bard cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require him to remain still such as stealth and search. A bard can however use his bardic performance ability while wardancing and may also use combat expertise. A bard cannot use this ability while under the effect of a rage or frenzy.
A wardance is not a bardic performance, but the bard must expend two rounds of his bardic performance ability as a free action to begin the wardance. The wardance lasts for a number of rounds equal to his perform(dance) skill. Starting a wardance does not prevent a bard from starting or maintaining a bardic performance. The bard may end a wardance as a free action.
Performing a wardance is physically tiresome - when the dance ends, the bard becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the wardance. A bard cannot enter a new wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter a wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Mobile Wardancer
Prerequisites: Bardic Performance, Perform (Dance) 3 ranks, Acrobatics 3 ranks, Bardic Wardance, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +5
Benefit: The bard has further mastered the art of the wardance. When starting his wardance he may expend four rounds of his bardic performance ability instead of two. If he does this, he may take a full attack action and still move up to his speed. However, the bard must move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack while using this ability, and he cannot return to a square he just exited (though he may return to that square later during his full attack). The bard is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of his move. A bard prevented from completing his move is also prevented from finishing his full attack.
This ability behaves like a standard bardic wardance in every other respect.
Prerequisites: Bardic Performance, Perform (Dance) 3 ranks, Acrobatics 3 ranks, Bardic Wardance, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any melee weapon), base attack bonus +5
Benefit: While performing his bardic wardance, the bard may add his Cha modifier to both attack and damage rolls. These bonus’ stack with any bonuses he gets from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if he is using Weapon Finesse).
Normal: While performing his bardic wardance, the bard adds his Cha modifier only to attack rolls.
Well done Matrixryu - your conversions have come along nicely. Feat trees are ideal. Bardic Wardance is a good name for your feat. The ability to use it with other than slashing weapons will appeal.
Feat conversion - take II
I think the following nails it for a faithful conversion of Snowflake Wardance using Pathfinder rules. I like how it rewards taking more ranks in a Perform skill and can be used in conjunction with Inspire Courage thus allowing the Bard to aid the party and boost himself in combat. The bard gains suitable value by taking the feat.
Frostburn pg50
You have mastered the snowflake wardance, a mystical style of fighting with slashing weapons that allows you to leap and almost seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake.
Prerequisite: Bardic performance ability, Perform (dance) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You expend to two rounds of your bardic performance uses per day to perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action, and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier (if any, to a maximum of your hit dice) to your attack rolls with any slashing light, one-handed or double melee weapons you wield. This bonus to hit stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).Snowflake wardance is an Extraordinary ability (Ex) that is not affected by blindness or silence. It expends bardic performance uses per day but is treated separately to the magical effects of bardic performance. A bard can perform Snowflake wardance in conjunction with a bardic performance ability such as Inspire Courage. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armour, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
A snowflake wardance lasts for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Perform (dance). A bard can end her snowflake wardance as a free action and is fatigued afterwards for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the snowflake wardance. A bard cannot enter a new snowflake wardance while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter snowflake wardance multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
I think you did a better job with the writeup than I did, nice :D
I think that version will work pretty well and is probably more faithful to the original version than mine is because it still has the slashing weapon limitatio.