Brawler.
- Adds class level to Grapple.
Way too powerful. It's basically "double BAB". It might be "just" for grappling, but with that rule, you make it unlikely that anyone can withstand your grapples.
Brawler.
- Adds class level to Grapple.
Way too powerful. It's basically "double BAB". It might be "just" for grappling, but with that rule, you make it unlikely that anyone can withstand your grapples.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I don't think anyone would ever make a class that gave anything more than full BAB seriously.
could be better if 1/2 class level or just a bonus like +2 or +4
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Yeah. He's basically getting double his base attack on every single action he takes ever.
Make a class that gets 1/2 Base Attack Bonus normally, but 2x (double) Base Attack when using a dagger, and guess what? the class will never use anyhting but daggers ever, so the "penalty" is nonexistent.
So, really, a "+ class level" to grapple checks is a "+ class level" to all attacks. The bonus isn't circumstantial, it's going to be used every single action.
way, way, WAY too good. Even if the class was just d6 with only fort, that would be too much. It'd be like making a class with d6, will, 1/2 base attack, and nothing else, but at 20th level it gets to cast wish at will as a supernatural ability. At some point, an ability is just flat out too good, no matter how you offset it. And there's not even anything to offset this thing.
Anyway, other traits:
- 2nd Level: Gains Unarmed grapple
...what is this?
Improved Unarmed Strike feat? If so, why doesn't he get this at first level?Or is it Improved Grapple? If so, again, why doesn't he have Improved Unarmed Strike already? Isn't that a rather important feat for a class that grabs and punches people?
3rd Level: May treat an opponent as one size larger or smaller for the purposes of movement and grappling. May not be decreased or increased greater than the size of the brawler. For every three levels, the brawler may add an additional size category.
...okay. A couple problems.
First, the class can grapple a dragon with absolutely zero penalty. That's nuts. That's completely insane. Now, make it so he gets a bonus equal to 1/2 the difference in special grapple size modifiers, and you've got something. Maybe bump it up to equal the bonus at 20th level. But just flat out ignoring the dragon's size bonus doesn't make sense. Making so he gets a matching bonus that effectively does a partial negation works within the system and the setting, without causing my brain to bleed.
Second, the class gets to negate the ability of size tiny and smaller creatures to move into his space. This is actually a very big deal; not because it messes up the poor snakes or pixies (who deserve getting punched in the face), but because of what it does to swarms. This ability makes it so that a swarm cannot enter his space without making a DC25+stuff acrobatics check. Swarms generally have absolutely no skills, so this is really blanket immunity to all swarms.
Not good, and how does "knowing how to grab and punch good" equate to being able to block the movement of even one fly, much less 10,000? And no, "snatching it out of the air" doesn't count - that's a (grapple) attack of opportunity.
- 8th level: Blinding Speed. Once per day, the brawler may execute two grappling actions in an attempt to pin, as part of one attack. 1 additional attempt per 4 levels.
...okay... so you can potentially take an enemy from completely free to utterly helpless in a single turn. If you succeed at two grapple checks. meh. I'd rather have stunning fist, so I can punch him six more times after he's gone all helpless, but there's nothing wrong here.
-10th Level: Patronage. A Patron grants an item for use, of a type useable by the character. Value up to 10000gp +2000 gp /level over 10.
No.
There's nothing wrong with abilities that simulate magic items - monks get several, there's the paladin's weapon bond, a ranger's nature bond, etc. But none of these just flat out give an item, and all of them fit the class.
Who is this patron? where has he been the last ten levels? where does he go?
Make it something specific. It shouldn't be written in stone; the player should have some flexibility regarding what he gets. But pick something that will scale automatically and make it fit, instead of just handing the player a sack of money.
Proficient in simple weapons and armor.
12/hp level.
.
Okay. What about skills? this feels like a 4+int class, so that's my guess, but what are the class skills, here?
Brawler levels stack with Barbarian levels (for rage)
OR with monk levels for Movement, and AC bonuses.
...ugh.
you know what, I'm not even going to try to explain why making your classes primary class feature the ability to just flat out copy the primary class feature from another class is a bad idea.
To sum up: it's lazy, it's bad writing, it's uncreative, it's boring, and it's horribly overpowered.
Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.
Gains feat as a fighter.
Okay, this right here? This is what we call a critical design flaw.
Observe: Fighter has full BAB (check), d10 hd (check plus), good fort (check plus), a bonus feat at first level an every even level (check), a scaling (to +4) bonus when using weapons and armor (no check) and NOTHING ELSE AT ALL. This is all they get. ever. period. And they are the single most effective melee combatant in the game. No one else can match the damage and AC of a fighter.
Your class gets everything they do, except for a +4 ac, attack, and damage, but in exchange gets more hit points, better saves (which by itself is probably enough) and then a whole bunch of already overpowered stuff on top of it.
To sum up:
This needs a complete re-write. Drop the grapple bonus entirely, lower the bonus feats to every 4 or 5 levels and from a reduced list, drop the barbarian and monk, give him his own slower progression of unarmed attack and ac (since he can wear light armor), throw in fast movement, and come up with a couple additional interesting abilities.
could be better if 1/2 class level or just a bonus like +2 or +4
No need really.
You make it a warrior class (Full BAB), add Improved and Greater Grapple to the mix (maybe even grant it earlier than it otherwise would), and you're already pretty strong at this stuff.
Maybe add a "bear hug" ability that lets you do a crush-like attack.
But in the end, let's just ignore the whole thing and play fighter with the right feats.
Start with one level of monk maybe (or get that item that gives you monk abilities).
You'll have full BAB, lots of combat feats, and you get weapon training. And armour training, of course.
The most I can see doing here is making some new combat feats.
It is in *no way* similar to double bab.First, adding class level to grapple does not increase iterative attacks.
There's no such thing as an iterative grapple. All there is is the grapple manoeuvre, which is a standard action (and, of course, every grappler will, sooner or later, get to maintain it as a move action, meaning two grapple checks per round).
Secondly, in a usual fight magic weapons increase both chance to hit and to damage. Grappling, they do neither (there is a long caveat I'll discuss if it comes up).
There's no such thing as a +20 weapon. Even fighters can't shore up class, feat and item bonuses to attack rolls that equal their BAB (except on very low levels. But you can certainly not go anywhere near +10 with abilities, feats and weapon combined at level 10, except in very special circumstances)
The fighter won't be able to use his expensive weapon properly, and the brawler can save the money to invest in other stuff.
Before you say that the class is overpowered (and perhaps it is, I like the feedback) compare a 20th level grappler with a 20th level fighter, as a means of making extreme example.
So what does the fighter get that helps with grapple that your class doesn't?
I think you will find that the grappler excels at grappling - but in all other ways would be very inferiour as a general fighter.
Sure, but if all you do is grappling, everything else is irrelevant. And that class could grapple everything - you can reliably beat the fighter's CMD to grapple him, and he has little hope of breaking free. And with the extra bonus of making enemies effectively smaller, the general number of creatures that could withstand him drops to near zero, too.
Giants (and others) will have strengths in the 40's, size modifiers of 12+, and full bab on top of that. So even with class to bab a grappler would ordinarily have no chance. Hence the reason to lessen size modifiers.
I'm hard pressed to find any creature with a strength of 40 or higher, and I have looked at the biggest giants, outsiders and dragons.
Size modifiers beyond +8 aren't in the game, either.
And on top of that, your combination of rules means that yes, you have a chance even against those who aren't really meant to be grappled (because they're colossal critters). It also means that everything other than the greatest critters will have no chance.
Level 20 halfling brawler:
CMB grappling= +54 (+20 BAB, +11 Str, +20 class ability, +2 improved grapple, +2 greater grapple, -1 size)
CMD vs. Grapple= 74 (10 base +20 BAB, +11 Str, +5 Dex, +20 class ability, +4 feats, -1 size, +5 deflection)
Brawler gets two rolls per round to maintain pin, and only needs to succeed on one of them. So:
Round 1: vs CR 20 Ancient Gold Dragon:
Dragon CMD 53 - 5 (gargantuan->small)= 48. Brawler fails to maintain pin 0% of rounds (automatic success)
Dragon CMB: +44 (-5)= +39. Unable to hit grappler's CMD.
# of magical abilities usable while pinned to enable escape: 0
Round 2: vs CR 23 Solar:
Solar CMD 47 - 2 (large->small)= 45. Brawler fails to maintain pin 0% of rounds (automatic success)
Solar CMB: +32 (-2)= +30. Unable to hit grappler's CMD
# of magical abilities usable while pinned to enable escape: 0
Round 3: vs CR 25 Tarrasque:
Tarrasque CMD 66 - 9 (colossal->small)= 57. Brawler fails to maintain pin 2.25% of rounds.
Tarrasque CMB: +57 (-9)= +48. Unable to hit grappler's CMD
# of magical abilities usable while pinned to enable escape: 0
Summary:
This halfling can grapple a shoggoth in each hand. It's not important that there are other combat abilities that he can or cannot use; All he needs to do is get a grip on something and hold it still while the party rogue goes to town. I don't know which it is more, boring or broken.
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Brawler.
- Adds class level to Grapple.
Okay others have pointed out and shown you how broken and overpowered this is. (see maleoke's level 20 brawler)
I understand the desire to have a bonus but we'll get into it.
Class features
- 1rst Level
Why do you list 1st level if you then have nothing for it? I think you meant to have the ability above here. How about instead of a bonus feat of his choice he gets IUS and Improved grapple at level one. As well as
a bonus to grapple checks if he makes a succesful intimidate check (think professional wrestler stare downs lol)- 2nd Level: Gains Unarmed grapple
What is unarmed grapple? Rather than that you should give him the grab ability that the summoner's eidelon can get.
3rd Level: May treat an opponent as one size larger or smaller for the purposes of movement and grappling. May not be decreased or increased greater than the size of the brawler. For every three levels, the brawler may add an additional size category.
This is a bit nonsensically worded, why not simply make it something like
Beast Grappler: The Brawler is considered large size for the purpose of initiating and maintaining a grapple, he gains a size bonus to his CMB checks to Grapple as if he was a large size creature. At 12th level he is considered huge size and his bonus becomes that of a huge creature. Also I think this should come in at a higher level, I think 4th (same time a monk gets manuever training)
- 8th level: Blinding Speed. Once per day, the brawler may execute two grappling actions in an attempt to pin, as part of one attack. 1 additional attempt per 4 levels.
You really like confusing wording on your abilities :P. Remember a grappler is going to have Greater Grapple at this point meaning he is already performing two grapple manuevers in a grapple. Which means he can already attempt a pin in the same round he grabs or make two pin attempts in a round. How about instead of giving him this ability you give him a list of wrestling moves that he can choose from and give them a list with more moves than one character can take. Things like choke hold. Arm bar. Body Slam etc. then you'll have customizable brawlers instead of every brawler looking alike which is very pathfinder in theme.
-10th Level: Patronage. A Patron grants an item for use, of a type useable by the character. Value up to 10000gp +2000 gp /level over 10.
I've got to agree with others that this ability is a bad one, it is like having an ability for rogues called sack of gold. Of course any class that gets money is going to use it to get an item usable by their character. It's redundant to say it and silly to have an ability that grants it. Basically it's a cop out of thinking up an actual ability. Sorry to sound so harsh but it really is a bad ability.
Proficient in simple weapons and armor. 12/hp level.
Okay you've specified later in the thread that you meant light armor but according to this he is just proficient in "armor" any type as long as its "armor" lol be sure to clarify. And yeah I think d12 hit die is a fair exchange for the hit to armor and weapon proficiencies.
Brawler levels stack with Barbarian levels (for rage)
OR with monk levels for Movement, and AC bonuses.
no no no no no. At best create feats they can take to do this, but this should not be a part of a base class. It encourages dipping one level in each just to get the abilities and nothing else. Since you have no capstone abilities or significant abilities at every level this makes it a given that every single Brawler will be built as a Brawler X/Monk 1/Barbarian 1. Every single one that isn't built by an idiot at least.
Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.
Gains feat as a fighter.
So clarify for me, this class gains the above abilities but looses the fighter special abilities like armor training, weapon training and bravery right? okay well thats not fair, they gain abilities to replace those so to give them the same feats and a good reflex puts the advantage on the Brawlers side, I'd recomend loosing a bonus feat every 3rd level of the fighter. Then a fighter to a Brawler is an = exchange, the fighter is more customizable and has full proficiencies, but a brawler has better HP and reflex and unique wrestling abilities.
Brawler.
- Adds class level to Grapple.
Class features
- 1rst Level
- 2nd Level: Gains Unarmed grapple
3rd Level: May treat an opponent as one size larger or smaller for the purposes of movement and grappling. May not be decreased or increased greater than the size of the brawler. For every three levels, the brawler may add an additional size category.
- 8th level: Blinding Speed. Once per day, the brawler may execute two grappling actions in an attempt to pin, as part of one attack. 1 additional attempt per 4 levels.
-10th Level: Patronage. A Patron grants an item for use, of a type useable by the character. Value up to 10000gp +2000 gp /level over 10.Proficient in simple weapons and armor. 12/hp level.
Brawler levels stack with Barbarian levels (for rage)
OR with monk levels for Movement, and AC bonuses.Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.
Gains feat as a fighter.
Meh.
If you want a specialist at grappling, go for the following (some blatantly stolen from upthread).
Grappler
BAB: Full
Hit Die : d12
Proficiencies : All Simple Weapons, Light Armor.
Saves : Fort (Good), Reflex (Good), Will (Poor)
Level 01 : Improved Unarmed Attack, Improved Grapple
Level 02 : Expert Grappling (+1/+1)
Level 03 : Fighter Feat
Level 04 : Wiley Grappler (+1/-1 Size)
Level 06 : Fighter Feat
Level 07 : Expert Grappling (+2/+2)
Level 09 : Fighter Feat
Levle 10 : Grappling Crush
Level 12 : Expert Grappling (+3/+3), Fighter Feat
Level 14 : Wiley Grappler (+2/-2 Sizes)
Level 15 : Fighter Feat
Level 17 : Expert Grappling (+4/+4)
Level 18 : Fighter Feat
Level 20 : Greater Grappling Crush
Expert Grappling - Starting at 2nd level, the grappler adds a +1 Insight bonus to both his CMB and CMD. This bonus increases by +1 for every additional 5 levels he attains in the class (+2/+2 at 7, +3/+3 at 12, etc).
Fighter Feat - Starting at 3rd level, the grappler gains a fighter feat (any feat with the combat tag). When selecting combat feats, the grappler may treat his grappler level as his fighter level (which does stack with any levels of Fighter he has) when meeting feat prerequisites. For example, if a feat has a prerequisite of Fighter 12th, the grappler may take that feat when he is 12th level. Alternately, a Grappler 10/Fighter 2 may also take the feat, as either a fighter or grappler bonus feat.
Wiley Grappler - At fourth level, the grappler may treat himself as one size larger or smaller when calculating his CMB/CMD scores, or when attempting a grapple against an opponent, taking the better CMB/CMD/Situational size advantage. At 14th level, this ability increases to allow the grappler to treat himself as up to 2 sizes larger or smaller.
Grappling Crush - At 10th level the grappler may, as a swift action, execute a crush against any grappled opponent. The damage for this crush is as if he were a monk making an unarmed attack at his current grappler level. For example, a 15th level grappler may make a crush damage check as a swift action doing 2d6+Str damage (assuming medium sized grappler). There is no attack roll for this attack, the grappled opponent simply takes the damage. At 20th level, the grappler may make a greater crush. In this case, the grappler rolls an attack roll as if confirming a critical attack when executing his crush. If the attack roll succeeds, the grappler treats the crush as a critical and multiplies his crush damage by 3.
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Okay so lets try this with some suggested changes
d12 hit die
Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.
Brawlers gain bonus feats as a fighter except they gain no feat at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th level, 16th and 20th level
Proficient in simple weapons and light armor.
Class features
- 1rst Level: Gains IUS and Improved grapple as bonus feats.
- 2nd Level: Gains Grab (Ex): A Brawler becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Whenever the brawler makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the brawler grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the brawler or smaller.
- 4th Level: Beast Grappler (Ex): The Brawler is considered large size for the purpose of initiating and maintaining a grapple, he gains a size bonus to his CMB checks to Grapple as if he was a large size creature. At 12th level he is considered huge size and his bonus becomes that of a huge creature.
- 8th level: Wrestler Moves at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter the Brawler gains a wrestling move selected from the following list.
Choke Hold Every round a grapler maintains a pin the target must make a fortitude save DC= to 10+ 1/2 Brawler level + plus Dexterity modifier (to introduce a little MAD)
Arm Bar A brawler may add Arm Bar to his list of actions performable in a grapple, if the grapple check is succesful the target is disarmed.
Body Slam A brawler may add body slam to his list of actions perfromable in a grapple. a body slam deals 1d6 non-lethal damage + 1d6 for every 5 by which you beat the targets CMD to the recipient. The target is prone and the grapple is ended.
Fierce Slam A brawler may choose to deal lethal or non-lethal damage with his body slams. The recipient must also make a fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 brawler class level + dexterity modifier or be dazed for 1 round. A brawler must have the body slam wrestling move to select this move.
Aesthetic Wrestler A brawler's class levels stack with monk levels for the purposes of fast movement and AC bonus.
Angry Wrestler A brawler's class levels stack with barbarian levels for the purposes of the Rage ability.
(see I brought them back for you in a way that makes the brawler have to choose and loose out to do so)
Bone Breaker A brawler becomes adept at crushing his foe's limbs, rendering them useless. As a standard action as part of maintaining a grapple the Brawler selects a limb (arm, leg, tail, wing, etc) the recipient receives a fort save DC 10+ 1/2 brawler level+ Strength modifier, if they fail the save the limb is rendered useless for 1d4 months or until regeneration or restoration are cast on the limb. You must have at least to other wrestling moves before you select this move.
Etc. these are just some off the top of the head examples I'm not gonna make them all for you :)
how does this look at high levels Maleoke?
You're making my argument for me. One of the posters said adding classlevel to bab was akin to double Bab.
I said that.
I was making the point - there are no iterative bab attacks. So adding classlevel to grapples scales much less well.
The point actually is this: The most useful part of BAB is its best attack, anyway.
And, of course, the difference between "BAB = Double Full" and "BAB = FULL and you get your class level to grapple checks" is virtually non-existent if all you do is grappling.
You still get to grapple as often as a character twice your level.
Increasing BAB for a fighter increases a to hit chance, as well as increases frequency of attacks, qualifies for feats. Class level to bab does *none* of those things.
Of course it does: It increases to hit chance in that it increases the total CMB for grappling, making you (a lot) more likely to succeed in your grapple (which is all you do in this class).
Frequency of attacks is also irrelevant for grappling, so BAB doesn't do that, either.
A grappler would have a reasonable chance to grapple a lot of things; Conversely a lot of creatures have opportunity to get out of grapple. Blink, Dimensional steps, countergrapple.
First of all, the brawler would have an unreasonably large chance to grapple most things.
And whether you can use blink, freedom of movement or teleportation to get out of this doesn't matter.
That's like saying "Fly can make you unreachable for a fighter's sword, so making every single hit from a fighter kill his opponent (no save, no nothing, just death)"
All it does is to make not having a certain ability a death sentence.
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A grappler would have a reasonable chance to grapple a lot of things; Conversely a lot of creatures have opportunity to get out of grapple. Blink, Dimensional steps, countergrapple.
First of all, the brawler would have an unreasonably large chance to grapple most things.
And whether you can use blink, freedom of movement or teleportation to get out of this doesn't matter.
That's like saying "Fly can make you unreachable for a fighter's sword, so making every single hit from a fighter kill his opponent (no save, no nothing, just death)"
All it does is to make not having a certain ability a death sentence.
+1
Don't forget that you also gave him every fighter bonus feat on top of that meaning he always wins grapple and when he can't grapple or they just escape, he's still 95% as good as a fighter with any weapon he would draw (-4 to attacks and damage and a few feats have to go to wrestling but he also has that rather nice free magic item that the fighter won't get)
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I think maybe we should transfer this to a new thread, one more appropriately titled than this one. I'm going to make one and as soon as I've posted it I'll provide a link for you.
EDIT: Here it is :)