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I have a couple questions about Whip, Trips, and Cleave. I just want to confirm the ruling.
1) If using a Whip to Trip (with Improved Trip feat), do you provoke an AoO from targets within reach? (Note: Using a whip does provoke an AoO pg 149; but improved trip says a CM used to trip does not provoke AoO)
2) Is this a viable combo. Using a Whip to Trip a target 15 ft away, and if the target is tripped, can I "cleave" an adjacent target within reach to trip?
Thanks
1 no
2 ???? i have no idea nor have i ever heard of such but i would put me gold on no
1) If using a Whip to Trip (with Improved Trip feat), do you provoke an AoO from targets within reach? (Note: Using a whip does provoke an AoO pg 149; but improved trip says a CM used to trip does not provoke AoO)
Initially, I would have said "Not from your target, but other ennemies adjacent to you could" because without the feat you would incur AoO from both.
However, the pesky RAW seems to indicate the contrary: "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver." (taken from the Improved Trip feat description). Nothing is said about where that dodged AoO would come from (target, other enemies, anything). So the answer is a full "No".
2) Is this a viable combo. Using a Whip to Trip a target 15 ft away, and if the target is tripped, can I "cleave" an adjacent target within reach to trip?
The Cleave feat makes you take a standard action to make a single attack, with some advantages (additional attack) occurring if you hit. Making a Trip manoeuver is a melee attack. So... yes.
Wow. The Tripping Whip really seems powerful, now. I think it's the only instance where Greater Cleave reaches the level of usefulness usually associated with Whirlwind Attack.
1) If using a Whip to Trip (with Improved Trip feat), do you provoke an AoO from targets within reach? (Note: Using a whip does provoke an AoO pg 149; but improved trip says a CM used to trip does not provoke AoO)Initially, I would have said "Not from your target, but other ennemies adjacent to you could" because without the feat you would incur AoO from both.
However, the pesky RAW seems to indicate the contrary: "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver." (taken from the Improved Trip feat description). Nothing is said about where that dodged AoO would come from (target, other enemies, anything). So the answer is a full "No".
2) Is this a viable combo. Using a Whip to Trip a target 15 ft away, and if the target is tripped, can I "cleave" an adjacent target within reach to trip?The Cleave feat makes you take a standard action to make a single attack, with some advantages (additional attack) occurring if you hit. Making a Trip manoeuver is a melee attack. So... yes.
Wow. The Tripping Whip really seems powerful, now. I think it's the only instance where Greater Cleave reaches the level of usefulness usually associated with Whirlwind Attack.
Yes, I noticed this a while ago, the whip is the new spiked chain.
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I would say no as to cleaving a trip attack with a whip because of the nature of HOW a whip trips. The concept is it wrapping around their feet and pulling them out from under them. A cleave is an arcing stroke that hits multiple enemies in one swing. Arcing a whip like that would just not work other then slapping them ineffectively. RAW is not conclusive, but I would not allow due to it not being possible mechanically.
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I actually believe you would provoke an AoO, because normally attempting a trip without Improved Trip using a whip provokes twice, once for the manuever and once for the weapon. (For a similar effect, see Ranged Touch Spells in Combat and how casting on the defensive still provokes an AoO if you make a ranged touch attack.) Improved Trip says you do not provoke for the manuever specifically; the weapon AoO is a completely different AoO, and is untouched by the feat.
Guys, you're reading this "you do not provoke" thing too literally.
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
The clause in improved trip, disarm and sunder overriding AoOs applies to those generated by using a maneuver instead of a regular attack.
The AoO for using a whip, since it's treated as a ranged weapon for the purpose, still applies.
This is similar to casting a ranged touch spell and casting defensively to negate the AoO. The AoO for making a ranged attack still applies.
Resuming, I see it as a loophole and won't allow it in my table.
I actually believe you would provoke an AoO, because normally attempting a trip without Improved Trip using a whip provokes twice, once for the manuever and once for the weapon. (For a similar effect, see Ranged Touch Spells in Combat and how casting on the defensive still provokes an AoO if you make a ranged touch attack.) Improved Trip says you do not provoke for the manuever specifically; the weapon AoO is a completely different AoO, and is untouched by the feat.
I believe this is the correct interpretation.
Improved trip means that you do not provoke for using the trip manuver. You still provoke for using a range weapon in melee.
I actually believe you would provoke an AoO, [...]I believe this is the correct interpretation. [...]
I know, I know, that even was my first thought about it. However, when discussing in these forums, there are many people taking RAW as literally as possible. Sometime to provoke thoughts.
If I DM a game where a player wants his character to attack with a whip while being threatened, chances are that he will incur AoOs.
If this point isn't already on the Errata list, it should join it.
Something odd
Cleave (Combat)You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
My first though was you cannot cleave with a whip it is a ranged weapon(I know still thinking about old rules for whips). While looking up the relevant rules I noticed the Cleave rules do not say you must be using a melee attack to cleave. The closest it comes is it mentions reach which is a property of melee attacks. It implies you must be using a melee attack, but it never flat out says it.
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I actually believe you would provoke an AoO, because normally attempting a trip without Improved Trip using a whip provokes twice, once for the manuever and once for the weapon. (For a similar effect, see Ranged Touch Spells in Combat and how casting on the defensive still provokes an AoO if you make a ranged touch attack.) Improved Trip says you do not provoke for the manuever specifically; the weapon AoO is a completely different AoO, and is untouched by the feat.I believe this is the correct interpretation.
Improved trip means that you do not provoke for using the trip manuver. You still provoke for using a range weapon in melee.
I believe this is correct as well. Whips don't threaten spaces and are specifically treated as ranged weapons. Improved Tripping with one doesn't help much, since using one adjacent to a foe would provoke for using a ranged weapon while threatened and if your target isn't threatening you in the first place, Improved Trip is moot.
If you try and trip one standing next to you, yes you do provoke and AOO.
But sense the reach is 15ft, doing it while they are more than 5ft from you, which is perfectly possible.
Is it possible to make a 5ft step between cleaves now?
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Thanks for all the input.
Whip:"The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes)."
Cleave: "As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach."
Trip: "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
So my "single attack" is a CM called Trip. And since it "hits" I get an additional attack to Trip again.[/list]
I would say no as to cleaving a trip attack with a whip because of the nature of HOW a whip trips. The concept is it wrapping around their feet and pulling them out from under them. A cleave is an arcing stroke that hits multiple enemies in one swing. Arcing a whip like that would just not work other then slapping them ineffectively. RAW is not conclusive, but I would not allow due to it not being possible mechanically.
Who says the whip has to wrap around the target's feet? The whip is so durable and strong that it can be "swept" at their ankles making them fall to the ground. heheheh
My Temporary Conclusion: I would say it is a legitimate combo as by the rules, but this needs to be clarified in the next errata. In the mean time, house rules would have to be made.
As a DM I would say:
Either 2a or 2b depending how the sessions plays out. 2b sounds better?
As a player: I wouldn't tell the DM about the loop hole :p. Just go around the battlefield tripping, hehe. If the DM asks, well "its in the rules" :p
If you try and trip one standing next to you, yes you do provoke and AOO.
But sense the reach is 15ft, doing it while they are more than 5ft from you, which is perfectly possible.
Is it possible to make a 5ft step between cleaves now?
I'd say yes.
But you still have to use cleave against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
1)Cleaving only works with Melee weapons (closing any loop holes with a range weapon and cleave doesn't specify melee attacks) AND2a)Cannot be combined with a CM (even though it is plausible to "cleave" when you sunder, disarm, or trip via a foot sweep). OR
2b) You cannot perform more than 1 CM per round unless your BAB, spell (eg. haste), special ability (like Flurry of Blows), etc permits.
point 1, ranged weapons do not have reach, so the point is mute.
Not sure I understand the reasoning behind point 2. Why should you be limitted to CM based off normal attacks? Cleave lets you get more attacks than normal already. Trip and disarm are worded in such a way to specically allow them to be used with cleave from what I can tell. Sunder on the other hand is a standard action (its the only one that specifies as an attack action.) Wouldn't cleave be a special ability as you describe?
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point 1, ranged weapons do not have reach, so the point is mute.
Not sure I understand the reasoning behind point 2. Why should you be limitted to CM based off normal attacks? Cleave lets you get more attacks than normal already. Trip and disarm are worded in such a way to specically allow them to be used with cleave from what I can tell. Sunder on the other hand is a standard action (its the only one that specifies as an attack action.) Wouldn't cleave be a special ability as you describe?
Point 1: Point taken. I didn't get the part about ranged weapons do not have reach.
Point 2: So I guess you can get additional trip(s) with Cleave and Great Cleave, within range of course. So 2a and 2b are null then.
Could you imagine running on the battlefield tripping every adjacent target with Great Cleve (whom are surrounding your tank), and with Greater Trip the tank getting lots of AoO (with Combat Reflexes)
1)Cleaving only works with Melee weapons (closing any loop holes with a range weapon and cleave doesn't specify melee attacks) AND2a)Cannot be combined with a CM (even though it is plausible to "cleave" when you sunder, disarm, or trip via a foot sweep). OR
2b) You cannot perform more than 1 CM per round unless your BAB, spell (eg. haste), special ability (like Flurry of Blows), etc permits.
point 1, ranged weapons do not have reach, so the point is mute.
Not sure I understand the reasoning behind point 2. Why should you be limitted to CM based off normal attacks? Cleave lets you get more attacks than normal already. Trip and disarm are worded in such a way to specically allow them to be used with cleave from what I can tell. Sunder on the other hand is a standard action (its the only one that specifies as an attack action.) Wouldn't cleave be a special ability as you describe?
The only thing about Whips that are like ranged weapons, is that they provoke like they do from adjacent enemies. That is the only thing listed. They are listed as melee weapons with 15ft reach in both chart and description.
Mind quoting the other two points?
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Just to quote the rules from the PRD to put them in-thread for easy viewing.
Point one - Yes, the weapon provokes attacks as if using a reach weapon even under the improved trip rules. Improved Trip only protects against the AoO that Tripping an opponent normally provokes.
Point two - As of my reading I'd also agree that you could make cleaving trip attempts. While cleave never specifies that you need a melee weapon, a whip is indeed a melee weapon, so there should be no issue there. Flavor wise, I can easily imagine tripping a far opponent and then dragging them into a closer opponent to trip and foul them up as part of a cleave. Thematically its very cool. Also, the game assumes you are not standing still in the middle of your 5-foot square and instead are moving around inside it dodging attacks etc. Having two opponents crash into each other at the edge of their respective 5-foot squares is not too far a stretch of the imagination.
...and adding Great Cleave gives you... Domino Day! :-)
In theory: Whip (with bonus enhancements) + Great Cleave + Lunge + Enlarge (spell) + Greater Trip + their prerequisites + spells and buffs = Ownage???
I would probably go for whirlwind attack rather than cleave with a whip. That way they don't need to be adjacent. It still combines with lunge, and that way you don't need to go for power attack with a whip.
get enlarged to do it out to 35 ft.
1) If using a Whip to Trip (with Improved Trip feat), do you provoke an AoO from targets within reach? (Note: Using a whip does provoke an AoO pg 149; but improved trip says a CM used to trip does not provoke AoO)
Yes. . .
2) Is this a viable combo. Using a Whip to Trip a target 15 ft away, and if the target is tripped, can I "cleave" an adjacent target within reach to trip?
Hard to say. Combat maneuvers are effectively attack substitutions (even for AoOs) -- but there's an argument that they don't actually "hit" -- you "succeed" on a combat maneuver. Cleave states you must make an attack and "hit" with it. You don't actually "hit" with combat maneuvers -- you succeed if your CMB check beats the opponents CMD. A "hit" is, as far as I can tell, always versus AC. This is also further justified because Cleaving implies hitting someone with a weapon and "cleaving" through another enemy. Trip is a bit more complicated (wrapping something around someone's leg) and doesn't mesh well with the concept of Cleave. I can conceive tripping one foe and tripping adjacent foes as you whip through them (perhaps tripping foes with tripped foes), but it's a bit of a stretch.
In terms of rules balance, I wouldn't have a problem with it -- but as to whether it's allowed by the letter of the rules I'd say there's a strong argument to say no.
We could argue all day and not come with a final answer between:
- the letter of the rule (improved trip say "no AoO", and nothing clearly prevents a CMB success from being considered a "hit")
- the intent of the rule (probably that improved trip removes the AoO from Trip only, and that Cleave is an actual attack)
- balance, fun, and a dash of realism
We could argue all day and not come with a final answer between:
- the letter of the rule (improved trip say "no AoO", and nothing clearly prevents a CMB success from being considered a "hit")
Actually, the rule has to say that the CMB success is a "hit" for it to be considered a "hit". Nothing clearly prevents a CMB success from being a pink elephant either -- that doesn't mean its a pink elephant unless it says, "a CMB success is considered a pink elephant." (:
Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action.
I think it's clear that combat maneuvers are not melee attacks -- but they can substitute for melee attacks. I don't think rules that apply only to melee attacks should necessarily apply to combat maneuvers. In the case of Cleave, there's no direct restriction to prevent you from substituting a combat maneuver for a melee attack. However, Cleave seems to imply that you must make a melee attack to use the feat -- similar in some ways to Vital Strike.
Note: I wonder if the word "as" in the sentence above is actually "like" -- hmmm, the meaning changes quite a bit otherwise. . .