Hi there!
In these posts I’m responding to comments I’ve received, mostly by memory. Afterwards I’ll try to comb through the thread and pick out specific questions and comments and try to narrow down on anything I might not cover in this or the posts to follow.
Intellect Devourers – and my deep rooted fear that I was going to be nailed by the judges for doing a servitor race
This might be more about the devourers than the actual skintakers, but I hope to put some of my ideas in context.
I’ll probably repeat this more than a couple times: my favorite monsters are something you can hang a plot on. You can do this with all monsters to some degree or another, because in adventure design even a seemingly random encounter can be part of a story. However some monsters lend themselves to it better than others.
So I took a good look at the Bestiary and was really startled to see hints of a grander and more twisted role for IDs in the game. “Entire cities” the Bestiary mentions devoted to the dark pleasures enjoyed by these fiends. Then I checked out ‘Into the Darklands’ written by James Jacobs and guest judge Greg Vaughan. There the dark truth of High Ilvarandin is revealed, where at the city’s core is a mass gentle repose effect ongoing, that allows the IDs to keep their stolen bodies for an extended time.
(Side note: Of course I had no idea Greg Vaughan was going to be the guest judge when I wrote it, and for all I know that might have backfired)
That really excited me; and I think you write your best when you’re having fun and are excited about what you’re writing about.
As a side note, my intention (and hopefully my execution) was not to riff off of Golarion or Ilvarandin, as that would have been against the rules. One reviewer, Starglim, was concerned that IDs creating enclaves was something unique to Golarion. However the Bestiary entry opens that design space for the IDs, suggesting they create their own societies. This becomes a possibility for any campaign setting.
The existence of skintakers does suggest that intellect devourers as a group are capable of achievements that their individual stat blocks wouldn’t otherwise indicate. I feel okay about that, because that is consistent with what I read in Paizo adventures. I’ll touch upon this more when I talk about templates, but from my perspective almost any given monster or monster type has some unique and special individuals. From Harpy Monks, Ghoul Rogues, to fiendish otyughs; Paizo has always shown us interesting and special examples of certain monsters. It stands to reason to me that there might also be some very special and powerful intellect devourers that are capable of advanced fleshcrafting and arcane weirdness that the baseline intellect devourer is not. They are from another planet or dimension after all! ;-)
All this aside, I was plainly worried that Judges would be mad as hell that I created a servitor race. I’d wake up in the middle of the night thinking of scathing remarks from the Judges that they wanted something wholly and completely original. I can’t say how relieved I was when that was not their reaction. Hopefully next year the skintakers might serve as an example that servitor races can be done.
Nevertheless, there were a fair number of fan critics who didn’t like how I implemented this particular servitor race and didn’t think it was original enough.
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This is a second in a series of posts discussing my thoughts and design ideas that went into the skintakers! Please enjoy!
Too similar to the intellect devourers, and why do they look all gross and stuff?
The decision to make them resemble of the IDs was (for me) a matter of internal logic and story. IDs are disembodied brains that are durable and self-sustaining without a body. I rationalized that if they had strange, advanced, and alien magic that they could hybridize a native lifeform into something closer to themselves. That begged the question, “Why?” After all, one of their primary goals seems to hinge on not being like themselves, and instead enjoying what it means to be ‘us.’
There are couple reasons:
First and foremost, because it is cruel.
Seriously, if you look how intellect devourers are defined, it is with the words cruelty and sinister. In fact, they are ‘one of the worlds cruelest races’, according the Bestiary. Skintakers are not born and they are not created. Instead they are transformed from people just like you; in an act of sadism and personal violence against everything that makes you who you are. In my mind, the intellect devourers delight in that, or take some perverse humor in it. Even when they’re not stealing your body, they’re still taking your humanity away. My original text mentioned that skintakers were “bizarre hybridized parodies of the intellect devourers themselves”, but that got edited out for word count and overall wordiness.
Secondly, it serves to isolate and alienate the skintaker. There is no going home again. The skintaker may escape or run away, but the IDs need only ask a few hard honest questions, “Where are you going to run to? Where have you left to go?” The skintaker has lost all sense of community and fellowship, as well as physical sensation. Now the IDs have something to hold over them. They’ve used the stick, so the carrot (a potential reversal of their condition) will be that much more effective.
Lastly, it is instructive. The skintakers may not understand the depth of intellect devourer cruelty and depravity, but by golly- they know what they want! IDs want to taste fruity wine, feel silk under fingertips, they want the sensation of agony, physical sexual coupling, pride in physical appearance, depriving others of what they want and watching them suffer.. they want to laugh, cry, and scream. They want to see something squirm underneath their terrible power. Emotion tied to physical sensation. When the skintaker is denied physicality, the intellect devourer can point out, “Now we have something in common. Now you understand what it is we want and how badly we want it. When it comes right down to it, you really don’t need to understand anything else.”
The most horrible thing they can do to a person is make them like they are.
The theme of both skintakers and IDs is the numbness and isolation of not having feeling or emotion, and the horror of that in of itself..
This has been a long winded explanation to say; I deliberately decided to make the skintakers resemble the IDs, not from a lack of a different idea, but because it felt like the best fit (for me) when I was writing it. Unfortunately it came off as uninspiring to some and I regret that.
Deciding on their exact form was a bit tricky, and it changed several times. At first I was vague on the description and did not explicitly state that the brain was exposed. Too many of test readers felt they were too much like common undead skeletons. In fact, as one of them said, “The old brainpan floating in the breeze” was the creepiest and most novel part of their appearance.” It resonated strongly with their creators so I kept it that way. (It also reminded me of Doctor Manhattan trying to fix himself in Alan Moore's Watchmen!)
Originally, they were going to be less messy sounding too. I was going with just a skeleton with a spinal cord and brain. That ran afoul with my notion of how the whole thing moved around and was somehow not undead. That was a central issue. I wanted something aberrant, not undead. Going back to the notion that the IDs could pare a living creature down to just the bare essentials, I had them wrapped in connective tissue that serves as muscle, but lacking any ‘unnecessary’ extras.
Interestingly, I don’t see them as ‘bloody’ or mushy at all. They’re quite durable in the same ways IDs are, but the skeletal tissue itself is red like blood. In fact, my original text read “bloody red tissues”, and my proof-readers strongly suggested that I just edit it down to avoid passive language. For example: I don’t see skintakers leaving bloody footprints down the hall when they’re “naked” of all exterior skin. However if and when that exterior flesh melts that specifically could be quite a mess.
I will confess however, that it crossed my mind to bank on the Paizo fan base loving horror. That has either backfired or come close to backfiring. I’ll be avoiding anything too common in the future.
This is the third in a series of posts discussing the ideas and thoughts I had when writing the skintakers.. and reflecting on some of the comments I received. Please enjoy!
Undead? And the idea of the sympathetic skintaker
I tried really hard to differentiate them from the undead, but I can see I didn’t quite get it across in every case. They do share many qualities with the undead however (feeding off of others of their own kind), so it makes a certain sense. I suppose it stands to reason that anything that looks skeletal will be associated with death.
Sympathy for skintakers was something I didn’t pick up on until the proofreaders started commenting on it. I was surprised to see the judges and readers follow that same vibe. Certainly that is a valid story element to use! However, when I was doing some research on villain design one critique came through very clearly- an awesome villain is not reluctant or passive. The way I imagine most skintakers who dwell in urban locations is that they are predators. They may hate it what they do, but they don’t hate it so much that they’re willing to suffer or sacrifice their own needs and desires. They want as close to a normal life as they possibly can get. They want to look in the mirror and not being repulsed by what they see. They want to enjoy fine foods and material comforts, as well as physical pleasures. They’ll prey on someone else to get those things if they must. If they can’t, they’ll go mad and kill themselves long before that point. In fact, I imagine not all skintakers are able to adapt. Along that line of thinking, I also think the IDs would screen out possible candidates that would be well suited to being ‘altered’. After all, why waste a good body if they’re just going to kill themselves in maudlin self-loathing? Skintakers are rare creatures, and the established ones are self-motivated to succeed.
Nevertheless, they were once people, and under the right circumstances I’m sure they still remember that. It defines their existence. The desire to be normal again, for as long as you can. Their situation is a somewhat desperate one, at least until they can get into a well populated area where their activities are easier to hide and they get a good situation established.
Think of Showtime’s TV series, “Dexter.”
I was part of the crowd that was missing the mind flayer due to its closed content and kept looking at the powers at be trying to convince us that IDs are now filling that niche. I couldn't see that. We were introduced to the Denziens of Leng, but they're still a bit new to most of us compared to the length of existence the others have spent with us throughout the editions.
But you, sir, created a servitor race that made some of us go .... hmmm..... maybe Mr. Jacobs was onto something after all. For some of us, with this servitor race -- you may essentially pull off the coup of convincing skeptics about the real potential sinister use of the ID.
Which is why you got my first vote right away. I would look forward to an adventure pitch from you, sir.
This is my fourth post in a series talking about the skintaker! Please forgive my long windedness! I love to write!
Another doppelganger and another skin-stealing creep
As far as being another doppelganger, actually the very last ability I added to the skintaker was the ability to take someone else’s form that they had recently fed upon. It wasn’t central to my core idea at all (if fact it came about as a suggestion from an early proofreader). That being said, I do take responsibility for including it, and actually I think it is still a great ability for the skintaker to have! However, a skintaker is kidnapper and predator first, and an identity thief second. The ability to steal someone else’s physical appearance is only an optional side-effect in how they reconstitute themselves, not a requirement or even a particularly compelling desire on their part. A skintaker could quite easily go through their entire sinister career always masquerading as their original true self. That’s because they always have the option of reconstituting into their former selves; but once a victim is fully consumed they no longer have that particular template to draw upon any more. The permanent theft of another identity is not sustainable for them in the long term. Nor is it necessarily particularly attractive, especially when they’re typically strongly motivated to regain some semblance of a normal existence.
In some ways I regret the addition of the doppelganger effect because it received such criticism. On the other hand, it is one more tool in their arsenal of deception and infiltration.
Whew! I’ll be taking a little break for a bit but then I’ll continue. I hope someone finds this interesting and not overly self-indulgent. I promise to focus in on specific comments soon.
However, a skintaker is kidnapper and predator first, and an identity thief second. The ability to steal someone else’s physical appearance is only an optional side-effect in how they reconstitute themselves, not a requirement or even a particularly compelling desire on their part. A skintaker could quite easily go through their entire sinister career always masquerading as their original true self.
Whatever you do, don't drop that theme. It gives it a whole Invasion of the Body Snatchers vibe and that's what I liked about it too.
Whatever you do, don't drop that theme. It gives it a whole Invasion of the Body Snatchers vibe and that's what I liked about it too.
Oh, I won't! I promise. I thought it was a good idea when I wrote it and I still do. I'm just differentiating what the intent and motive was. Not to steal what is cool from a doppleganger, but to provide a means to end for the skintaker.
And thank you for your support! I'd love to write an adventure proposal. However I'm also a firm believer in the most important step in this RPG Superstar process being the next step. Whatever step that might be at any given time. I need to do my best in every Round, and hopefully everything else will fall in place.
Finally, I believe the process will result in the best people and the best final winner. I'm hoping that I'll do well, but that's what we're all here to find out. The best way to see that happen is to make it happen. :D
I'll be honest with you Watcher, this wound up being one of the ones on my short list of 11 that I had a tough time deciding on votes for. Despite my initial impression, they grew on me a lot. I didn't vote for them, but based on polling I'm hoping you are through to the next round so we can see what's coming.
I'll be honest with you Watcher, this wound up being one of the ones on my short list of 11 that I had a tough time deciding on votes for. Despite my initial impression, they grew on me a lot. I didn't vote for them, but based on polling I'm hoping you are through to the next round so we can see what's coming.
Much appreciated! :D Especially coming from you, because I believe you have a great eye for what works and what doesn't. We'll just have to see.
I don't want to sound in any way defeatist, but I'm happy and proud to have come this far. We'll see if I can do it again.
If you'd included this text and the related discussion in your description, I'd have probably voted for you, hands down. I like monsters with a consistent theme, and for monsters that are made instead of born, the explanation for why the monster gets the powers it gets is more important to me than the actual list of powers themselves.
Ack! :D
Well, that teaches me something. That got cut out in the interest of tighter writing, since I got a lot of feedback about excessive wordiness and passive language in the first round.
I did like that line however, and gnashed my teeth over deleting it. I should have listened to my instincts.
Thanks Eric!
This is the fifth in a series of posts where I discuss my Round Two entry.. I’m getting a little less verbose now. ;-)
Names are hard
Earlier names that were discarded included:
• Wasting Ones
• Fleshless Horrors
• Bodythief or Body Thief – which I liked! Until I realized it is also the name of a intellect devourer special ability. That idea got killed quickly.
• Skinthief was another one I liked until I googled it and found out a gentleman who shall go nameless (but his initials are Sean K. Reynolds) had written a completely different monster called a lupine skinthief . Heh, what’s a guy to do? It would have sucked to find out about this in the Judge’s remarks. Incidentally I found this little monster gem way too late for me to trash my skintaker and start over, but the urge was there for a second. I should have checked for good names earlier in the brainstorming process.
Names are hard, no doubt about it. I could have used a better name, but skintaker is the one that stuck.
Intellect Devourers can do all this stuff themselves, so why do we need these things?
I’m not trying to dodge the question, but if you’ll indulge me, I’d like to turn it upside down and invite you to consider it again: If intellect devourers can do all this stuff on their own, why aren’t they? And why haven’t you wanted to use them in your campaigns before this?
The simplest answer I have is that they don’t want to, probably for a myriad of reasons. Not liking the openness and exposure. Not having a place to retreat to when their stolen body decays. Not being able to enjoy that body in whatever perverse manner they choose to, without attracting unwanted attention from local and civil authorities. Not to mention concern about the proximity of people able to call upon protection from evil (a common 1st level spell to which they’re vulnerable).
How about not wanting to do their own dirty work? That’s a time honored reason that has withstood the test of ages. :D
I don’t mean to make light of this concern at all. I take it seriously. The best answer I have is that the skintaker serves to find a better selection of good and interesting bodies for the IDs to inhabit, without forcing them to enter cities to find one themselves. That is what allows you to take what was once only a bizarre subterranean monster and make it part of a broader storyline in many different locales, like an urban setting. I hope the possibilities this creates offsets the issue of redundancy.
Underground labor?
Simply, I think its good design to provide at least two different applications for a creature. It might not always be possible, but I think it is good when you can do it. Take my good competitor’s work with the Haga. It can be a seer/oracle in the capacity of an NPC, supplying the party with information in a role-playing situation.. Or it can be monster to be fought with directly. That offers you more bang for your buck when you find it in your Bestiary.
I designed skintakers primarily for urban situations. However finding them in the Darklands (or your campaigns equivalent), doing the business of their masters just made sense to me.
On that same note, if intellect devourers can inhabit underground cities, someone has to maintain those cities while the IDs enjoy their unwholesome festivities. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don’t see skintakers as mushy soft bloody pulps, but rather quite durable and tough creatures.
I hope that element of the design makes more sense now, as I wished I'd communicated it more clearly.
You can only say so much in 300 words or less. It's like trying to do MMA with shackles. ;P
Jim:
First of all, congratulations on making it to the Top 16. I thought I would wait until after the voting for Round Two ended before offering any commentary or advice. And I'm going to come at it a little differently, in that I'm not going to focus primarily on your design this round. Rather, I'm going to have a go at examining your entire portfolio to this point to sort of assess what you've done well, where you could shore up a few things in your overall design and writing, and then give you some more pointed advice on stuff you could showcase in future rounds to maybe improve your chances of going all the way to the end. So, with that in mind, here goes:
You laid the smack down with your Skintaker this round. It's really helped you stand out much moreso than the seducer's bane managed to do during the wondrous item round. The risk you took by associating the Skintaker with the Intellect Devourers worked for some voters and didn't with others. That's not surprising at all. The same thing happened with me last year on some of the design decisions I made while trying to navigate each round. The important thing is to stand true to the vision you have. And, if you're confident enough in your ability to execute it in a way that will appeal to more voters than those it puts off, you're on the right track.
Now, if I assess what you did with seducer's bane, I cited you for a fair amount of passive voice last round. I see some of it is still present in the Skintaker, but you eliminated most of it and did so with some really evocative language that helps paint a picture for the reader. This gives them a real sense for what a Skintaker is all about. And I also like the name. It tells us what the creature is about from the very get-go. I think that shows very good insight into not only how to properly put together a monster, but also how to put together a submission for RPG Superstar that will draw in the voters. And the importance of that can't be overstated, in my opinion, because the contest is both about demonstrating great skills in freelance design, but also great skills in winning over the masses to the designs you create so they'll support you in future rounds.
Now, let's also take a look at your mechanical execution. You had some weak spots during the wondrous item round with how you characterized some things for seducer's bane. That means this upcoming round, you need to be on your toes so you can demonstrate a perfect execution of your chosen monster's stat-block, powers, and abilities. This will be important for you to establish if you want to maintain a frontrunner's position in the competition. And that's where you find yourself according to the exit polls. But don't get complacent with that. Keep your foot on the gas and keep looking for ways to be innovative, inventive, and inspiring. Keep the attention to detail on your work and you'll keep the attention on you as you move from round-to-round through the contest.
Best of luck,
--Neil
I just wanted to let you know that the Skintaker was my top choice as soon as I read it!
I'm not terribly familiar with the Golarion setting, and have not read 'Into the Darklands', so I had no idea that Intellect Devourers were being set up as the Pathfinder substitute for illithids. With that said, I immediately picked up on the "sinister illithid-like mastermind race" vibe for IDs from a few references in your description, and the Skintaker seems like the perfectly natural servitor race for IDs in terms of appearance, abilities, and method of creation. I can easily envision an entire "IDs as ultimate antagonists" campaign with Skintakers as the mid-level antagonists that can add interesting shades of gray to the typical battle of good vs. evil. As much as I liked the other monster entries, yours was the only one (for me, at least) that screamed "integral adversary(ies) for an Adventure Path," with the potential for many memorable, nuanced encounters."
I'm very glad to see you advance to the Top 16. I look forward to seeing the stat block for the Skintaker, and later - not to be too presumptuous - an adventure proposal and hopefully a published adventure in which the Skintaker makes a debut.
Good luck!
Edit: Just saw that you must stat someone else's monster for Round 3. Shucks, I wanted to see how you would stat the Skintaker. Oh well, I look forward to seeing your take on one of the other monsters!
Edit: Just saw that you must stat someone else's monster for Round 3. Shucks, I wanted to see how you would stat the Skintaker. Oh well, I look forward to seeing your take on one of the other monsters!
He can still release his version after voting ends for this new round
Awesome stuff
Thank you Neil! This bits of individual advice are wonderful, and quite a gift. I'll do my very best to demonstrate the ancient art of Rule-Fu!
I'm very glad to see you advance to the Top 16. I look forward to seeing the stat block for the Skintaker, and later - not to be too presumptuous - an adventure proposal and hopefully a published adventure in which the Skintaker makes a debut.Good luck!
Awww. Gosh Max, its folks like you that really make me want to put my head down and give it all I got. Thanks!
I'm gonna ramble for a bit..
That's my challenge to myself anyway; To not hold back, to not compromise myself in pursuit of this goal.
Someone close to me once played a clip from the movie 'The Matrix', she said it reminded her of me.
Oracle: OK, now I'm supposed to say, "Hmm, that's interesting, but... ” then you say...
Neo: ...”but what?"
Oracle: But... you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not The One.
Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life, maybe. Who knows? That's the way these things go.
That doesn't sound particularly encouraging, but sometimes I do think opportunities present themselves and never get taken because 'we're waiting for something.'
However, as we all know.. the Oracle is not stating a fact here. She's telling him what he needs to hear; liberating him from trying to live up to an expectation that has been placed on him. Ultimately, the decision to achieve his potential is still his... except now it really is a choice.
We've got to want to succeed. That's the first step.
Ha! I don't know if any of that made a damn bit of sense or not. I just know it's 7:45 am local time, and I guess I'm in a sort of crazy headspace at the moment.. and its time for me to get to work winning this here contest.
Thanks for the note Max, I'll see what I can do for the both of us.
This criticism was the exact reason I think you should have included that line you cut.
If skintakers are hybrids that IDs create to inflict their own miserable condition on others, you can sidestep the above criticism completely. Why do IDs need skintakers? They don't need them at all. Which makes the fact that they create them anyway all the more sadistic.
Duly noted Eric! Thanks for the lesson! Sometimes you have to know when to go with your gut, that time perhaps I should have.
Congratulations! Though you did not get my final vote, this was a strong entry and a strong candidate for me.
Visual: 15 Charisma
Creativity: 15 Intelligence
Would I use it: 12 Dex
Overall: 14 Strength
I found it creepy and scary but not sure I would ever use these, mostly because of the crave physical contact thing. The strength as has been mentioned was tying your critter to something we all want to encounter, but will not get to often enough. It gained a little sympathy thread, but mostly because it can now be recurring critte.
Good luck, and nice job!
The Script of the Matrix wrote:
Oracle: OK, now I'm supposed to say, "Hmm, that's interesting, but... ” then you say...
Neo: ...”but what?"
Oracle: But... you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not The One.
Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life, maybe. Who knows? That's the way these things go.
That's one of my fav scenes from the Matrix - for the reasons you laid out. A lot of the great successes in my life have happened because I happened to be in a room with something that had to be done and I thought – well heck, why not step up and give it a try. It can be very easy to “wait” for something to happen – when the reality in life is that you learn the most/achieve the most by doing. (And sometimes you fail and you need to get up and try again.)
I also love the same scene where the Oracle shares the following:
Oracle: You're cuter than I thought. I can see why she likes you.
Neo: Who?
Oracle: Not too bright, though.
Good luck to you!
Hey folks, this might of some interest.
Paizo has just announced a new product for the fall. Lost Cities of Golarion
One of the cities listed is Ilvarandin, which is a city of Intellect Devourers (at least High Ilvarandin is), first mentioned in "Into the Darklands". Ilvarandin is one of the inspirations that led me to write the skintakers, along with the non-campaign specific information in the Bestiary.
If you like the Intellect Devourers now, this will be of particular interest.
As for the skintakers, they are the property of Paizo publishing. :D
I won't pretend I wouldn't like to see them in print some day, but that's entirely under their purview.