I recently was approached by one of my players who is a HUGE fan of the Final Fantasy genre. He has a little bit of 3rd edition experience as a DM, but has only player pathfinder as one of my players. While most of his 3.5 games were run gestalt, I recommended not doing so in pathfinder right off the bat. A week later he came to me with his idea... I told him I could see some major problems with it, and I would mull it over and see if I came up with anything productive. I'm not sure if anyone has any ideas, but I decided to consult the wisdom of the boards before getting back to him. It all sounds like a TON of extra work to me. This is what I wrote down from his preposal:
Having the classes set up like the job classes of FF Tactics:
Each player has a main current job (class) and a activated secondary job (class). The maximum class level is equal to the level a character on the slow progression path would have, HOWEVER players gain levels as per the fast progression path. Hit Dice and skill points are set by the current chosen job. The class skill list of the secondary job are still considered class skills for the +3 trained bonus.
At the begining of a session each player declares their main and second jobs. For the rest of the session these are the classes they will use (this should be ready to go before the group meets). The main class dictates everything normal about a class. The secondary class grants any gained class abilities in that class. All class restrictions from both classes apply (including alignment restrictions). As experience is gained, it is gained in the main class as a PC of that level as if there was no secondary class.
If a player wishes to sacrifice levels in a class toward another class, they may do so, but they may never gain another level in that class. The max class levels still apply. The payout of XP from the sacrificed class to the new class is halved. He mentioned needing certain classes to unlock other classes, but I was not privy to that information.
He also mentioned getting rid of XP points and instead using points per CR kills, but I convinced him that was a bad idea pretty quick. As far as I can tell, it will only be the GM plus 3 other players total.
I know, I know, this is a bit crazy. I'd like to see if anybody here can lend some thoughts to a way to positively improve this. If you feel like ranting against how _____ it is, I'm well aware and am not going to be bothered by it. Any perspective I take away is useful. He's gonna run it either way, and it may crash and blow up in his face as it is. I'd hate for him to blame pathfinder and decide he only wants to run 3.5 gestalt as this is his first real big mod experience.
Lastly I think he said he would be starting this in a month, so I'm hoping to have anything useful together within the next three weeks. Thanks in advance all...
Reminds me of Final Fantasy V a bit.
Things to consider:
1) Since everyone effectively has 2 classes, the need for specific prestige classes that function already like gestalts (arcane trickster, mystic theurge, etc.) is reduced considerably.
2) System as written encourages players to all be barbarians, fighters, paladins, or rangers plus one other secondary class for superior hit points. Also encourages cleric/druid/bard combinations with other spellcasting classes. Characters will be tougher overall because few will want to be a sorcerer/wizard. But heaven help you if one of those shows up!
3) How do prestige classes interact with this system? With a secondary class you can probably meet the requirements for a PrC more easily in many cases.
4) Define 'class abilities'. Does that include base save bonuses? BAB? Spellcasting?
Just quick thoughts here.
An interesting idea, however I'm not so sure about the job switching between sesions. I guess it depends on how the adventures are run. It would be better if it was based on game time, such as a character can swap classes once per month or the like.
In my experiance bending the game like this you really need different tools then Pathfinder and UA can provide. I would normally suggest looking into a Point Buy system like Buy the Numbers or BESM d20 (classless variant), but I'm not sure he'd have the time to digest those rules and get something of quality.
Here are some rambling thoughts:
Have a core class that is basically the commoner without class skills (d6 HD, 2 + Int, Poor saves, Poor BaB). This class uses the slow progression and always gains EXP. It sets the characters max level for Job 'classes' as well as a minimum on various attributes.
Use average HP per HD to speed up recalculation with the primary class.
Only allowing the primary class to advance using the Fast track (up to
the 'Core' classes character level, running on the slow track and gaining the same XP) is a good idea. That will force players who want to use caster classes will actually need to make the primary at least a few times to bring the up levels. Drop the sacrificing class levels, that's likely going one step to far.
This will generate a great deal of paperwork however you should tack skills for each Job class. The easiest way would be to make a copy of the PRD skill chart but remove the C and CC listings (thus making space for ranks).
Job classes gain extra skill at -2 per level, as the core class covers that. (wizards and fighters add nothing, monks get +2 ranks per level, bards +4, rogues +6). The Primary class adds it's ranks and class skills, the secondary counts it's class skills. Thankfully, the skill ranks system in pathfinder works very much to his advantage here, as a rank is a rank.
This may get a bit overpowered but feats should be allowed to be taken regardless of prequisties. They just can't be used until you meet the requirements. For example things like item creation feats that have a minimum caster level could be taken, but not used until either a primary or secondary job class was active and could meet the requirement.
Use the best value for saves when comparing Core class to Primary Job class. A 8 Core with Fighter Primary 5 will have: BAB +5, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2.
Use primary class for average HP up to it's level, then use the remaining Core class. Core 8/ fighter 5 from before: 10 + (5.5 * 4) + (3.5 * 3).
Just make again the switched in classes will be easier if everyone has good records. HP totals and Skill Ranks are two of those things that will be easy enough to track.
You know I am going to say a point buy system will save a lot of this work.
- point 1 - agreed.
- point 2 - I think he was trying to do a limited gestalt, if I know him as well as I do, he'll use his homemade CR table to adjust as if it was fully gestalt. I know he usually bans "combo classes" like the ones you've listed, but I'm thinking when he spoke of unlocking classes, he either meant this or meant just not being able to start as the base classes. I apologize again for not having this information yet.
- point 3 - I think the PrCs count as seperate jobs that absorb the XP from the previous class, but if not, at least count as their own job.
- point 4 - To my understanding, this is limited to the print on the class tables for each class (as in rogue talents, bonus feats, imp speed, etc).
You reminded me of something I forgot to mention something about spells as I heard it but didn't write down:
Caster levels stack up to the max current allowed level and you get spells from each class. He said this was supposed to be like having a time mage with red spells from a previous job. (Again, he's theming this based on final fantasy tactics, either the PS One version or the NDS version).
Thanks for the questions... I hope this helps.
I think you'd get a lot more mileage for a lot less work if you just use regular gestalt.
Court Fool - Something like GURPs? I thought of this, but I'm only passingly familiar with GURPs and have no source books to lend him if he has none. Any online recommendations that can be printed out or saved (he has no internet or I would have him do this himself)?
William Timmins - You're probably right... I just hate to tell him what he came up with is not going to work without alternatives or strong reasons why.
Thanks both of you for the input.
The link is blocked from my work, so I can not verify it. If he likes to tinker with rules, Hero System is a tinkerer's heaven. It is rather rules heavy though. Mutants & Masterminds might be a good fit as it shares a lot of 3.5 fundamentals. Combined with the Warlocks and Warriors source book you would be set.
I would advise that with a system like this that you just not use prestige classes at all, at least until you've gotten down some mileage with the base setup. Gestalts of any kind really reduce the need for prestige classes and when you get prestige/prestige gestalts things get ugly very fast.
I think I'll suggest making PrCs much much harder to him. I don't think he'd go for dropping things like dragon disciples altogether as he's fond of playing them, but I think I can appeal to him by suggestig he make it super hard to unlock. Something like commiting resources from two classes to get there. I'd also wanna say a big hell no to having two arcane classes (drg dsc and sorc).
I'm hoping nobody takes the summoner though as I can see a summoner / barbarian with lifelink as WAY too much HP.
The link is blocked from my work, so I can not verify it. If he likes to tinker with rules, Hero System is a tinkerer's heaven. It is rather rules heavy though. Mutants & Masterminds might be a good fit as it shares a lot of 3.5 fundamentals. Combined with the Warlocks and Warriors source book you would be set.
AWESOME! Thanks much for linking it. Tried the link and you are correct sir! One of the players plays M&M, but hasn't really gone into any kind of details. I'll mention the Hero System and I just added the basic free book to the e-cart.
Thanks again.