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Recently a group in which I am a player fought a collection of Lantern Archons, each generating their own 20' radius Aura of Menace. My simple question is: Does the effect of multiple Aura's of Menace stack?
A failed Will save against the Aura of Menace inflicts a -2 Penalty on AC, Attack Rolls, Saving Throws and Skill Checks. This means, given enough Lantern Archons, eventually everyone will statistically fail their saves, which lowers their saves, and thus they will fail more and more saves. In our game, we were fighting about 35 Lantern Archons at the same time, and thus the person who failed the most saves had -32 to Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, and AC and skill checks, effectively making him a mewing infant.
Additionally, since the Archon's eventually were destroyed (but not by the character who had -32 to everything) he was stuck with those penalties for 24 hours. Using baseline assumptions, this means he couldn't walk without tripping, couldn't hear someone yelling in his ear, and was basically comatose.
Does Aura of Menace generated from multiple targets cause stacking penalties without a cap?
RAW it appears so, but I do not think you actually need someone to tell you that is plain silliness, I wouldnt let the penalty go beyond
- 2 attack, AC and saves since that makes more sense.
hmm well if you consider the aura the source I suppose, you could have said it was the archon though.
Maezer has it, even if you consider the archon as the sourse it is still the aura that is providing the penalty. Auras are typically like spells that have already been cast/or are constantly cast. Most creatures can turn off the aura for a round by taking a standard action and then it springs back into effect the next round unless they concentrate on keeping it down.
It is no different than having multiple casters with the same X debuff spell that applies a -2 penalty to Z stat(s). If the first caster gets it off and the spell sticks, when the second caster casts the spell it won't stack, the source - the spell, is the same even though there were two casters and two seperate spells expended.
With the auras just keep track of who is afraid of which archon, as they beat down one some people may stop taking the debuff while others could be under the effects of the other two archons. Also the first debuff to stick will make the following debuff more likely to work as well. Having the archon's advance one at a time would be a good tactic to take advantage of that, though them all swooping down works it possibly makes the book keeping a little more difficult. Lots of saving throws with possible modifiers from the auras.
No they don't stack. The are from the same source. As an example if one caster hits you with ray of enfeeblement, and it is followed up by with a another caster doing the same thing you take the worse of the two penalties. The source is the actual ability, not the caster/creature.
No they don't stack. The are from the same source. As an example if one caster hits you with ray of enfeeblement, and it is followed up by with a another caster doing the same thing you take the worse of the two penalties. The source is the actual ability, not the caster/creature.
I know this was the case in 3.5. In Pathfinder although there is text indicating that multiple iterations of the same penalty-granting spell do not stack with themselves, it is less clear whether this is true of non spell effects. A plain reading would seem to indicate that the answer is that other penalties from the same source always stack, though I would love to be missing something as I consider that a poor rule.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
No they don't stack. The are from the same source. As an example if one caster hits you with ray of enfeeblement, and it is followed up by with a another caster doing the same thing you take the worse of the two penalties. The source is the actual ability, not the caster/creature.I know this was the case in 3.5.
Pathfinder however seems to have specifically reversed this. Typeless penalties always stack.
Ray of Enfeeblement has spell specific text indicating it does not stack with itself, but otherwise:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.I thought I remembered having found something in the rules that indicated a return to the same source not stacking deal, but now I cannot find such a thing. Any ideas? (or, I may be remembering a house rule).Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
That rule was also in 3.5. Pathfinder did not change anything, and the book also says you only take the worse of two penalties from the same source.
Combining Magic Effects
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
edit:I bolded "spells or magical effects" because even though the word "spells" is repeated the rules apply to magical affects in general.
While you were posting Wraithstrike I was editing to make it clear that the penalty stacking rule does not seem to apply to spells, as you say.
However, this is not a spell.