I have a few questions about how these three work together
Can I use a Cleave and Vital Strike Togther?, Can I Charge and Cleave? Can I charge and vital Strike?
Thanks for the help in advance
I have a few questions about how these three work together
Can I use a Cleave and Vital Strike Togther?, Can I Charge and Cleave? Can I charge and vital Strike?
Thanks for the help in advance
No to all 3 questions.
Vital Strike is it's own standard action. So is cleave. Charging is a full round action. You cannot do any of these 3 things together in the same round (under normal circumstances).
Just by how some of them were worded and I saw in Jasons preview where he talked about vital striking on the charge. I was not sure
Can you cleave or vital strike as a part of a full round attack?
Please Do
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The following is from the Pathfinder FAQ found at this link
Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action. Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions defined on page 182 or Standard Actions List on the PRD. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]
Q: Can you charge and use Vital Strike?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Charge is a special full-round action (excluding partial charge). You cannot currently combine a charge and vital strike.
So, no, you can't use Vital Strike with anything other than the 'attack action', which is defined as a standard action in which you make a single attack at your full BAB.
At the end of a charge, you get to take a standard action, whether that be an attack, a combat maneuver, or in this case a cleave attack.
And as far as vital strike, I'm convinced from the wording that you get it on the first attack you make in any round that uses your full attack bonus. I'll explain myself if someone wants.
"Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."
You may make a single melee attack at the end of a charge, not a standard action.
And the established explanation of vital strike is it's a standard action, I do believe it has been clarified when asked about before.
Besides that:
"When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage."
The attack action is defined in the standard actions section:
"Standard Actions
Most of the common actions characters take, aside from movement, fall into the realm of standard actions.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet)."
Any link that lists "attack action" goes to this section.
Yeah, I was just pointed at the FAQ, and I know I was wrong. Just the way it was worded was extremely weird to me. And so I assumed what it meant, and that's not what they meant. And they way they meant it, vital strike and cleave IMO really suck now. There's only really 2 ways to use them, and those are as a sneak attack, and at the end of a move action.
I think, but am not certain, the idea here is, fighters especially, get lots of feats. Often they have a few extra. There are situations where you are going to move (and not get a full attack) or you dont charge because its not advantageous. Vital strike is useful in that case, if not amazing. Some players like 'skirmish' type characters. This certainly helps them some.
Cleave is still potent at low levels, but eventually you are right, it becomes pretty weak because you get new better attack options.
But at higher level the fighter can change out his cleave when it becomes useless
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And they way they meant it, vital strike and cleave IMO really suck now. There's only really 2 ways to use them, and those are as a sneak attack, and at the end of a move action.
Umm... That doesn't suck, that's a huge tactical upgrade. In 3.5 You could stand still and wallop someone with a full attack, or charge hitting just once. The Vital Strike chain allows you to almost do a full attack worth of damage with your best bonus after a move action. you pick the target, move in and BAM!
As for cleave, same idea except now you try to position yourself in a space that lets you great cleave three or more targets after a move. In conjunction with power attack, these allow a mobile fighter/barbarian/etc... to hit hard and keep moving.
How could these possibly be viewed as a downgrade from 3.5?
Pg 55 PF Core book
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels
thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose
to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has
already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus
feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot
be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat,
prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change
one feat at any given level and must choose whether or
not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat
for the level.
It's in the Fighter class description. Every 4 levels he can swap a bonus feat for a different bonus feat.
Edit Ninja'd
I don't think (to my knowledge)
Start doing so, it's great ;-P
Good-natured teasing aside, fighters do get to switch out feats the way sorcerers can exchange spells:
"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level."
And a little house rule lecture by yours truly:
I do let people change their character, but I'm definitely not a sucker.
Small stuff like switching a feat is no problem, provided you never got to use the feat properly. Someone, say, paladin getting cleave at 1st level, cleaving the heck out of enemies until he deems it useless, and trying to return it for something else will just not happen.
My rule for vital strike is that you can use it whenever you do a single attack against a single target in a round (and it's not a feat chain, it's automatic). It works with charge, with spring attack, with jumping over a chasm and hitting someone on the other side... It doesn't work with cleave (two targets) or whirlwind attack (even more targets).
My rule for vital strike is that you can use it whenever you do a single attack against a single target in a round (and it's not a feat chain, it's automatic). It works with charge, with spring attack, with jumping over a chasm and hitting someone on the other side... It doesn't work with cleave (two targets) or whirlwind attack (even more targets).
I agree with this as a house rule and would mention Shot on the Run (which functions much like Spring Attack), as a similar instance when Vital Strike ought to be allowed.
The Vital Strike chain allows you to almost do a full attack worth of damage with your best bonus after a move action.
Wouldn't call it almost full attack worth of damage. All you get is the weapon die. Especially at higher levels, damage dice are often the least part of damage.
For example, my paladin/swashbuckler gets 1d6+29 while smiting a devil (and other special evil stuff, see smite for details). When he uses spring attack or just a move, he gets 3d6+29. That's about 7 extra points on average on top of the 32.5 he already does.
Of course, just making it count as a full extra attack would be way too strong, and this feat isn't that bad, but it's actuall more of a damage bonus, not a multiplier.
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The Vital Strike chain allows you to almost do a full attack worth of damage with your best bonus after a move action.Wouldn't call it almost full attack worth of damage. All you get is the weapon die. Especially at higher levels, damage dice are often the least part of damage.
For example, my paladin/swashbuckler gets 1d6+29 while smiting a devil (and other special evil stuff, see smite for details). When he uses spring attack or just a move, he gets 3d6+29. That's about 7 extra points on average on top of the 32.5 he already does.
Of course, just making it count as a full extra attack would be way too strong, and this feat isn't that bad, but it's actuall more of a damage bonus, not a multiplier.
Oh, i agree to an extent. When your bonuses get high it doesn't compensate for a full attack. But you don't sacrifice all chances of a solid shot when moving. Basically its an upgrade worth taking and i just wanted to respond to some of the vital strike hating I've seen on the board lately.